Flames Defense

[cross16]

Sutters system will minimize the damage but imo this is now a below avg d core and a hard choice for Sutter. He either needs to pair a couple of boat anchors together, Zadarov and Gudbranson, so he can limit their minutes or he’s going to saddle to young dmen with them. This puts a ton of pressure on Rasmus Anderson to bounce back and it he doesn’t things could get ugly. 
i hope I am wrong but for me the flames have gone the wrong direction with their d core this off season. 

[robrob74]

35 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Signing 2 older ,and not very good dmen, to one year deals in order to trade your 24 year old dman doesn’t strike me as preparation. 

this is what BT has done for the past few years. 
 

look at the depth signings last year that did nothing for the team, Simon, Ritchie, Nordstrom and to a very lesser extent, Leivo. Although Leivo is the reclamation darling BT shoots for very often. I get it, those spots are holes and very cheap and meaningless signings. But they’re not meaningful so they’re not actually helping the team. 
 

so these new guys are Sutter guys. I hope they’re not too old and battered to play their games. We’ve also seen this with as few BT signings where vets can’t keep up due to skating and age and bodies being broken. It’s a gamble. 
 

also, I like these types of players, so I am optimistic. What I don’t like is EGudbranson. This is a terrible deal and signing. I don’t think he’ll make me eat crow on this, but to me it’s like the Mason Raymond signing in that I don’t like it equally the same… hate it!

 

maybe all of these guys can play up fo their career standards and we have a deep hard working bottom 6 that can play in the trenches. Now can they get they Top6 to do that? 
 

I still think we need a top6 C. We’ve killed some cap to acquire that.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Sutters system will minimize the damage but imo this is now a below avg d core and a hard choice for Sutter. He either needs to pair a couple of boat anchors together, Zadarov and Gudbranson, so he can limit their minutes or he’s going to saddle to young dmen with them. This puts a ton of pressure on Rasmus Anderson to bounce back and it he doesn’t things could get ugly. 
i hope I am wrong but for me the flames have gone the wrong direction with their d core this off season. 

I was optimistic before the Stone and EG signings. But we know now that Valamaki might get pushed out or his development hindered in this process. He needs to be playing! And with someone who can compliment his style, not be an anchor to it. 
 

my biggest worry was not getting the 6th D that could do that. 
 

let’s hope he takes a giant step with a healthy off-season to develop!

 

but I fully agree with you… and like I said in my previous comment, it feels like BT is using wall filler to fill a leak in a sinking ship, or a hole that needs something different. 

[rickross]

Think it’s time we get over this Eichel fantasy. Flames need to get out of this saviour mentality and start focusing on building a team of players not just a bunch of individuals wearing the same jersey. 
 

Flames have better depth at D but I’m not overly thrilled with Gudbranson. Sure he’s a big body, brings physicality and is here to let the smaller skilled players play with piece of mind but defensively he is a liability. McDavid will have Gudbransons jersey inside out when he skates right by him. Sure he can clear a crease and fight but he’s pretty 1 dimensional D man. 
 

Not the worst D group but doesn’t really scream contender level. Hopefully there still moves to make that carry greater impact and value. Flames should be better but I’m not expecting a night and day turnover for this team

[rocketdoctor]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

It doesn't look that bad Imo. Maybe it's how you have them paired? 

 

1. Hanafin-Tanev 

2. Zadarov-Andersson 

3. Valamaki-Gubrandson 

E. Mackey-Stone 

A. Kylington-Welinksy 

 

Kylington and Welinksy are going to provide depth from the AHL.

 

Mackey can also easily be sent down, his salary is small enough to fully bury and he is waiver exempt. Stone's salary also can be buried, he isn't waiver except though. I expect Mackey will be sent down and be the first call up if there are injuries. 

 

Yeah my pairings were based on thinking that both Zadorv and Gudbranson are at best 3rd line D men and I cannot see Sutter relying on Valimaki.

 

I did not realise Mackey was waiver exempt.    Just seems weird siging a young guy to a one way contract and then sending him down.

 

 

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

sutter is going to wonder why Valamaki isn’t good enough because he’s going to be covering for EG all the time and failing to do what what he’s good at, thus stifling his offensive side. Sure Valamaki needs to play good D, but…

 

I guess we will see.  Sutter isn't an idiot and can tell the difference between Valamaki making a mistake and Gudbrandson making a mistake.  He is also a bit underrated as a development coach.  There have been some very good players developed under his watch.  Valamaki progressed a bunch under Sutter, and he spoke very positively about the experience.  

 

Again, I am not in the Gudbrandson fan club.  I am also certain that both Treliving and Sutter are more then aware of his short comings.  But I get the desire to have a physical shut down guy on each pair. Would I have preferred someone with a better set of metrics and more offensive upside?  Absolutely.  But the Flames have a lot of young puck moving two way D men.  The keywords being 'young' and 'puck moving'.  Adding two more RH shot defensively focused D gives the team a lot more options, especially with Mackey primed to make an entrance.  

 

There is also the question of intangibles.  I am an analytics proponent, so I normally hate the word.  But the Flames have a culture issue that needs to be solved.  We need some more 'intangibles' and this guy brings them.  

 

Call me cautiously optimistic, with a side dish of healthy skepticism.  

[kehatch]

13 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

 

Yeah my pairings were based on thinking that both Zadorv and Gudbranson are at best 3rd line D men and I cannot see Sutter relying on Valimaki.

 

I did not realise Mackey was waiver exempt.    Just seems weird siging a young guy to a one way contract and then sending him down.

 

 

 

I think the one way contract was a compromise to get the player signed for two seasons.  It only impacts the owners payroll, not waivers or the cap.  I also think Mackey will play 60 plus games in the NHL this season.  He is NHL ready.  The summer line ups always look congested, but injuries are going to happen as early as camp and he is the first up on the left side.  

 

I think Mackey and Valamaki are going to take big steps forward this season.  I am less certain about Andersson, but still hopeful.  Kylington I have written off.  But full disclosure, I wrote off Mangipane once upon a time ...  Hopefully Kylington proves me wrong again.  

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Sutters system will minimize the damage but imo this is now a below avg d core and a hard choice for Sutter. He either needs to pair a couple of boat anchors together, Zadarov and Gudbranson, so he can limit their minutes or he’s going to saddle to young dmen with them. This puts a ton of pressure on Rasmus Anderson to bounce back and it he doesn’t things could get ugly. 
i hope I am wrong but for me the flames have gone the wrong direction with their d core this off season. 

 

I think (hope) if it comes down to Zadarov and Gudbranson sharing a pair that they are calling up Mackey or Stone!

 

The Gudbranson signings sort of feel like the Regher pick up in LA.  Totally different situation given Regher's issues were related to age, but still similar in that he was struggling but performed pretty well under Sutter.  As for Zadarov, he is more Warrener.  He has a decent NHL resume, and a good chance to take it to the next level playing for Sutter. 

 

I know it sounds like I am overvaluing the coach. Maybe I am, but I don't think so.  The guy knows how to deploy these guys, and I think both will be fine under him. 

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, rickross said:

Think it’s time we get over this Eichel fantasy. Flames need to get out of this saviour mentality and start focusing on building a team of players not just a bunch of individuals wearing the same jersey. 

 

But sir, we've been doing exactly what you said the past few years.  It's time to get the #1 Center.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

Sutters system will minimize the damage but imo this is now a below avg d core and a hard choice for Sutter. He either needs to pair a couple of boat anchors together, Zadarov and Gudbranson, so he can limit their minutes or he’s going to saddle to young dmen with them. This puts a ton of pressure on Rasmus Anderson to bounce back and it he doesn’t things could get ugly. 
i hope I am wrong but for me the flames have gone the wrong direction with their d core this off season. 

 

That's why we should trade Andersson for Eichel anyways because it's not going to make a huge difference.  Don't think of getting Eichel to win this year and instead, get him first and then use next summer to re-organize the blueline to compete again. 

 

We have a chance next summer to land an Andersson-level Dman but there may never be another opportunity to land an Eichel-level Center for the foreseeable future.

 

So given the two paths, get Eichel first and then rebuild from there.

[jjgallow]

28 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's why we should trade Andersson for Eichel anyways because it's not going to make a huge difference.  Don't think of getting Eichel to win this year and instead, get him first and then use next summer to re-organize the blueline to compete again. 

 

We have a chance next summer to land an Andersson-level Dman but there may never be another opportunity to land an Eichel-level Center for the foreseeable future.

 

So given the two paths, get Eichel first and then rebuild from there.

 

I could argue why Eichel isn't the best for us, but, more importantly, he's not coming here.

 

So, we'll look back at this offseason as the season where we talked all summer about something that was never ever going to happen (not that this is different from most things I bring up lol).

 

Now, if we can spin that into firing BT, I'm inclined to run with it.  lol.

 

 

But otherwise, I don't see the point.   What we need is goaltending and D, and none of our forwards can help us until we get it.   Case in point, Buffalo.  Edmonton.

That's what elite forward lines look like with nothing behind them.

[Horsman1]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I was optimistic before the Stone and EG signings. But we know now that Valamaki might get pushed out or his development hindered in this process. He needs to be playing! And with someone who can compliment his style, not be an anchor to it. 
 

my biggest worry was not getting the 6th D that could do that. 
 

let’s hope he takes a giant step with a healthy off-season to develop!

 

but I fully agree with you… and like I said in my previous comment, it feels like BT is using wall filler to fill a leak in a sinking ship, or a hole that needs something different. 

I really don't like the Gud signing at all.. Harvey the hound is already on the payroll and brings levity to the team. The Only roll Gud may be around to perform

[nevermissashift]

It's the same thing each year. So and so can't play because so and so has been signed. I agree that the big league is for developed players, and the minor league is for developing players. 

There is no doubt that a team needs big strong developed players. Each year there are plenty of injuries. Each year there are plenty of injuries... 

The way I see it at present is the team has plenty of spare horses to be used for trades and/or injuries. 

All is good... No problems only solutions... Let the horses run. 

 

[Horsman1]

7 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I think the one way contract was a compromise to get the player signed for two seasons.  It only impacts the owners payroll, not waivers or the cap.  I also think Mackey will play 60 plus games in the NHL this season.  He is NHL ready.  The summer line ups always look congested, but injuries are going to happen as early as camp and he is the first up on the left side.  

 

I think Mackey and Valamaki are going to take big steps forward this season.  I am less certain about Andersson, but still hopeful.  Kylington I have written off.  But full disclosure, I wrote off Mangipane once upon a time ...  Hopefully Kylington proves me wrong again.  

if hanafin/tanev... zadorov/anderson are our top 2 lines.. and valamaki/stone are our next best..  and mackay is the seventh  that leaves kylington/welenski/Gudbrunsen/as spares..or insurance playing for  one way contracts on the farm

 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

if hanafin/tanev... zadorov/anderson are our top 2 lines.. and valamaki/stone are our next best..  and mackay is the seventh  that leaves kylington/welenski/Gudbrunsen/as spares..or insurance playing for  one way contracts on the farm

 

 

Gudbranson is not being paid $2m to go to the AHL.

It's a waste of money for the cap to only bury half.

Mackey may play 60 games in Kehatch's estimation, but I'm not sure how that is even possible without major injuries.

Valimaki is at worst a 2nd pairing guy, about the same as Zaddy.

Hanifin, Tanev and Ras are 1st or 2nd pairing.

One of those LD will play 3rd pairing before Mackey.

Gudbranson could be in the pressbox with Mackey on RD, but that seems unlikely. 

[Horsman1]

45 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Gudbranson is not being paid $2m to go to the AHL.

It's a waste of money for the cap to only bury half.

Mackey may play 60 games in Kehatch's estimation, but I'm not sure how that is even possible without major injuries.

Valimaki is at worst a 2nd pairing guy, about the same as Zaddy.

Hanifin, Tanev and Ras are 1st or 2nd pairing.

One of those LD will play 3rd pairing before Mackey.

Gudbranson could be in the pressbox with Mackey on RD, but that seems unlikely. 

on your team maybe.. I posted what I would do with them.. In fact .. I wouldn't have wasted a wooden nickle on Gud or welenski.. Stone would be my 5th d man and valamaki and mackey would split time playing with him and Kylington would be trade bait

 

[The_People1]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

But otherwise, I don't see the point.   What we need is goaltending and D, and none of our forwards can help us until we get it.   Case in point, Buffalo.  Edmonton.

That's what elite forward lines look like with nothing behind them.

 

G and D doesn't even matter because we are so far from that now.  It takes years.  Get the #1 Center first and then do a quick retool.  Aim to win towards the later end of Eichel's contract window.

[kehatch]

5 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

if hanafin/tanev... zadorov/anderson are our top 2 lines.. and valamaki/stone are our next best..  and mackay is the seventh  that leaves kylington/welenski/Gudbrunsen/as spares..or insurance playing for  one way contracts on the farm

 

 

The head coach reached out to Gudbranson in July trying to get the player, and the GM just signed him to a 2-million dollar deal.  He isn't going to the AHL.  Also, Mackey is a young waiver eligible player.  If he isn't in the top 6 then he will be in the AHL where he can get ice time and continue to develop.  Based on your response to TD, I appreciate that isn't what you would do, which is fair.  But that is what the Flames will do.  

 

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

G and D doesn't even matter because we are so far from that now.  It takes years.  Get the #1 Center first and then do a quick retool.  Aim to win towards the later end of Eichel's contract window.

 

sounds like your plan is also years.    Reason is you'll need G and D.

 

It's not that G and D that doesn't matter anymore.   It's the fact that we've got years that doesn't matter.    I've accepted it.   There is no way around it.

 

We won't get G and D in time for the end of his contract window unless we re-sign him to a 5-year.   But by that time, he likely won't be our best center.  it'll be someone we drafted in 2022/2023.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm saying it's a wash. 

[The_People1]

28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

sounds like your plan is also years.    Reason is you'll need G and D.

 

It's not that G and D that doesn't matter anymore.   It's the fact that we've got years that doesn't matter.    I've accepted it.   There is no way around it.

 

We won't get G and D in time for the end of his contract window unless we re-sign him to a 5-year.   But by that time, he likely won't be our best center.  it'll be someone we drafted in 2022/2023.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, I'm saying it's a wash. 

 

I should disclaimer my post by saying that's the second best path to winning a Cup (the first is to tank hard for the next two years)... but we aren't doing the first unfortunately so... 

 

Get the #1 Center first.

 

To get that D, we can move Monahan for one.  I would also be in favour of moving Gaudreau for picks and prospects if he doesn't sign an extension so that should give us some ammo to make further trades to land some D.  We are looking decent for cap space next season depending on Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  This could give us cap room to get some more 2/3/4 quality D from UFA.

[cross16]

20 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I think (hope) if it comes down to Zadarov and Gudbranson sharing a pair that they are calling up Mackey or Stone!

 

The Gudbranson signings sort of feel like the Regher pick up in LA.  Totally different situation given Regher's issues were related to age, but still similar in that he was struggling but performed pretty well under Sutter.  As for Zadarov, he is more Warrener.  He has a decent NHL resume, and a good chance to take it to the next level playing for Sutter. 

 

I know it sounds like I am overvaluing the coach. Maybe I am, but I don't think so.  The guy knows how to deploy these guys, and I think both will be fine under him. 

i actually agree when it comes to Zadorov and Sutter. While im not Zs biggest fan he does bring a few positives to the table and I think Sutter can help him, especially with his penalties (big drawback to his game). I except him to take a minor step. 
 

but with Gudbranson I think that’s a different situation. I have a lot of faith in Sutter to rebuild players or get them to their best but my problem with Gudbranson is I just don’t think there is anything there. This isn’t a player who has fallen off lately, he’s just never been a solid player at the NHL level. 
 

I hope I’m wrong but that’s why I think the Gudbranson one is a mistake, especially id it leads to poor usage of him and other defenders (namely Valimaki)

[Horsman1]

8 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

The head coach reached out to Gudbranson in July trying to get the player, and the GM just signed him to a 2-million dollar deal.  He isn't going to the AHL.  Also, Mackey is a young waiver eligible player.  If he isn't in the top 6 then he will be in the AHL where he can get ice time and continue to develop.  Based on your response to TD, I appreciate that isn't what you would do, which is fair.  But that is what the Flames will do.  

 

 

yup and  they have been simply outstanding the last 20 odd years

[MP5029]

18 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

But sir, we've been doing exactly what you said the past few years.  It's time to get the #1 Center.

And how you do that is NOT by trading away basically 3-4 first round picks (in amy combo of actual picks, players or prospects)

 

how this is done is by not

letting assets fade away(Iggy, Gio) settle into NTC positions (Gaudreau) etc… Basically your best players are on limited return once they hit 30…it just is…yes some can go to 35, and a very elite few to 40 like maybe 5 in this past 10 years in the entire NHL…

 

point here is this, Backlund is a prime target at TDL to move for an additional 1st …while it may be a low 1st it’s a really deep and Uber talented draft and it also give options 2x1st rounders in a deep draft you may be able to trade up to the top 5….or you end up with 2x above average/star level players either way that’s how you stack talent and eventually lad a top Ctr or two…

 

don’t believe me look at the team with “elete” Ctrs…all drafted none were traded for…Crosby, Malkknen (sp?), McKinnon, McDavid, Mariner (sp?) anyway not one we’re traded for they were drafted…yes true in most cases  by way of tanking but some were from smart player movement and picking up an extra 1st rounder…

 

we are not tanking so, logically, the best thing to do is move guys, not now but at TDL…pick us as many and as high as you can draft picks in an Uber deep and Uber talented draft…

 

I guarantee you move:

 

Backlund

Gaudreau

Monahan 

 

 

and get only a 1st rounder for each, that’s 4 x 1st rounders…package those to move up in this draft and only get 2 picks you probably drafting at worst 2x Monahan (young days)… that’s a huge improvement…but odds are you would lad a McKinnon and possibly a Crosby out of those two…or give how

deep This draft is if you keep those 4 picks your probably gonna get at least 1x McKinnon and 2x Monahan and 1x Backlund level Ctrs…

 

that’s how you get an elite or at worse an Uber deep Ctr group not by trading 

 

 

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I should disclaimer my post by saying that's the second best path to winning a Cup (the first is to tank hard for the next two years)... but we aren't doing the first unfortunately so... 

 

Get the #1 Center first.

 

To get that D, we can move Monahan for one.  I would also be in favour of moving Gaudreau for picks and prospects if he doesn't sign an extension so that should give us some ammo to make further trades to land some D.  We are looking decent for cap space next season depending on Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  This could give us cap room to get some more 2/3/4 quality D from UFA.

 

So, with regards to Eichel, I just see us paying too much based on BT's prior behaviour.   He's not known for clear-win trades.   Also we're talking about surgey of the spine.   I think Eichel would be incredibly lucky to have an outcome better than say Tiger Woods (I'd say Eichel's surgery is more risky).

 

In terms of tanking for the next two years, imho we will fall under a rebuild if we simply get draft picks 2-3 spots higher than we already are now.    That is an absolutely miniscule performance change.   All we would need to do that is lose one key player, or in fact just our key players aging one year as enough since we have nothing in the pipelines.

 

Losing key player:   Giordano, Brodie, and more...check, check, check.    Giordano alone is enough to rip apart the very fabric of this team even at his age and that is what people are choosing not to accept.   People think Valimaki will mitigate this.   In reallity I think we would be very lucky if Valimaki has nearly as much success as he did last year, he will be given all the hardest minutes now with nobody to replace him.

 

Key players aging a year:   Check, and check.   People think Monahan's surgery will mitigate this.  Sure it will.  And Tiger Wood's back surgeries will make him the world's greatest golfer.    Mangiapane, Dube....every year there are a couple players who reach their peak, and at this time there is a lot of excitement about them until it is confirmed that they have peaked.    These two are very clearly in this category.    
Tkachuk imho is also already peaked and while he may have better years ahead of him those will be with better teammates.

As per above, I only see one player stepping up their game (Valimaki), I don't see the step-up being enough, nor is one player enough.

 

Goaltending you know my thoughts.  They are based on past performance.

 

The Sutter factor:  The last team he was on is stuck hard in a rebuild now.   The team he was on before that (us) went into a rebuild when he left as well.  Yes he's a great coach but he's not a GM and he can't make key players appear out of thin air.

 

Injuries:   Some people think last year was an exception due to injuries etc.     Reallity:   Actually, this is what it looks like when you have a smaller aging core working in a system that doesn't prioritize player health.    It's not getting better just because we don't know what injuries are coming yet.

 

Gaudreau's going to return to his old self.  Lol. Lol. Lol.

 

 

Planned tank?   We've been ensuring this every time we Don't plan.

 

The fact that we didn't acquire G/D in the last two drafts doesn't stop us from tanking it just means we will tank harder and longer.    With or without an injured Eichel.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Injuries:   Some people think last year was an exception due to injuries etc.     Reallity:   Actually, this is what it looks like when you have a smaller aging core working in a system that doesn't prioritize player health.    It's not getting better just because we don't know what injuries are coming yet.

 

Gaudreau's going to return to his old self.  Lol. Lol. Lol.

 

 

Planned tank?   We've been ensuring this every time we Don't plan.

 

The fact that we didn't acquire G/D in the last two drafts doesn't stop us from tanking it just means we will tank harder and longer.    With or without an injured Eichel.

this was my problem for the past 2-3 drafts. We went years before drafting Valamaki and then the same since drafting him. We needed to continue to draft all positions because running the risk of not having players come in to replace aging ones is too high. It means you have no plan. I was upset trading down because I wanted a D or RW. The rest of that draft we saw RHS players go picks just after ours. But it was all good after we took a flyer on an offensive skating D who can’t play defensive hockey. I’ve heard that one before in Kylington. But it’s a good high reward move if he pans out, but I just don’t see it happening. 
 

but we didn’t plan for the future before and paid for it, and it looks like we aren’t planning for the future again. 
 

I might need to jump ship and route for a team that knows how to build… because the Flames really makes me feel like I am constantly hitting my head against a brick wall wondering what they’re doing or waiting for them to do something of note.