Flames Defense

[cross16]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Every year since his first year, he has had the opportunity to be signed, if I am not mistaken.  He could have been invited by any team to attend a Young Prospects tourney, at his own expense, and still maintain NCAA eligibility.

 

Draft eligible or not, there was a window he could have signed with any team.  He wasn't.  I may be 100% wrong on this, but he doesn't fall into the Schultz category of having to wait till he leaves and be August 15th to be free to sign with anyone.  The question pops up, why he hasn't been signed.  

 

Technically you are right, he could have signed with anyone. He did get a few camp invites, but the tricky thing with signing is as soon as he does he loses his NCAA eligibility. So from the NHL perspective they need to be comfortable with him in the AHL and from the player perspective he has to be comfortable giving up his education and some of them don't want to. I may be wrong on this but I thought I remember reading that Dan Dekeyser had offers to go pro earlier than he did but he wanted to get his education so he stayed.  Lots of valid reasons why players in College became UDFA.

 

That being said, I do agree with the theme that the process is overrated. The VAST majority of College Free agents flop and just are not NHL caliber prospects. Obviously you have to scout it and take a shot when you believe in a guy, but it's not a good source to gain prospects. 

[redfire11]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I'm not sure that would be a wise move, not that Engelland couldn't make that move but a 3rd pairing out of the 3 you mention playing an offside and limited experience would or could be worse. I think we need help from outside at the TDL to find Brodie a RS partner with experience and leave Engelland in the 3rd pairing as support for the young defensemen.

Yes you are correct Mac it is a gamble. I guess I feel that we need to make some decisions this year about Jykri, Kulak, Spoon and given a chance to prove it full time would allow 2 of the 3 to emerge as starters. I am also not sure they would make as many on ice mistakes as we have seen from Wideman.

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

Yes you are correct Mac it is a gamble. I guess I feel that we need to make some decisions this year about Jykri, Kulak, Spoon and given a chance to prove it full time would allow 2 of the 3 to emerge as starters. I am also not sure they would make as many on ice mistakes as we have seen from Wideman.

Hey I am all in favor of getting Wideman off the ice but I don't think you do the team a favor having to many of the young defensemen on all at once.

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Every year since his first year, he has had the opportunity to be signed, if I am not mistaken.  He could have been invited by any team to attend a Young Prospects tourney, at his own expense, and still maintain NCAA eligibility.

 

Draft eligible or not, there was a window he could have signed with any team.  He wasn't.  I may be 100% wrong on this, but he doesn't fall into the Schultz category of having to wait till he leaves and be August 15th to be free to sign with anyone.  The question pops up, why he hasn't been signed.  

 

We need cross for this one.  

 

All I know, is that US college players tend to be signed in their final year of college.   Just as the sky is blue.  "just cause"  ... lol.

 

There is a lot to it, and I think you're right in theory, but for practical purposes that's just how it is for whatever reasons.   There will be a US College free agent list coming up shortly, and he will be high on that list (definitely high enough to get signed), and everyone else on that list...you could pose that same question for.

[AlbertaBoy12]

33 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

We need cross for this one.  

 

All I know, is that US college players tend to be signed in their final year of college.   Just as the sky is blue.  "just cause"  ... lol.

 

There is a lot to it, and I think you're right in theory, but for practical purposes that's just how it is for whatever reasons.   There will be a US College free agent list coming up shortly, and he will be high on that list (definitely high enough to get signed), and everyone else on that list...you could pose that same question for.

Its nothing to do with their final year of college necessarily as far as I understand. A player can come out of college whenever he wants, he just has to leave his team. 

 

A player whos drafted has to wait till the end of the 4 years to declare for free agency, im not 100% sure on that.

 

Im assuming most guys dont leave early, they want to finish their education before they move on.

[cross16]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

We need cross for this one.  

 

All I know, is that US college players tend to be signed in their final year of college.   Just as the sky is blue.  "just cause"  ... lol.

 

There is a lot to it, and I think you're right in theory, but for practical purposes that's just how it is for whatever reasons.   There will be a US College free agent list coming up shortly, and he will be high on that list (definitely high enough to get signed), and everyone else on that list...you could pose that same question for.

 

Tend to be but not required to be by rule. Player becomes an undrafted free agent when he is no longer eligible for the draft, which happens once he is over the age of 20 by the end of the calendar year the draft is held. At that point he can sign, but issue is he has to go pro. If a team doesn't think he is worth drafted then he likely isn't ready for pro hockey. Teams want college to handle the development and use a contract when they feel he is more pro ready. Also lots of kids become undrsdted free agents after their their year of college but turn down offers to turn pro to finish their degree, play another year or maybe up their stock. 

So not required that they be in their final year, but your right tends to happen that way. 

4 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Its nothing to do with their final year of college necessarily as far as I understand. A player can come out of college whenever he wants, he just has to leave his team. 

 

A player whos drafted has to wait till the end of the 4 years to declare for free agency, im not 100% sure on that.

 

Im assuming most guys dont leave early, they want to finish their education before they move on.

 

Correct on all counts here. Outside of the "Justin Schultz" loophole a drafted player needs to play all 4 years and then wait till August. 

[JTech780]

17 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Tend to be but not required to be by rule. Player becomes an undrafted free agent when he is no longer eligible for the draft, which happens once he is over the age of 20 by the end of the calendar year the draft is held. At that point he can sign, but issue is he has to go pro. If a team doesn't think he is worth drafted then he likely isn't ready for pro hockey. Teams want college to handle the development and use a contract when they feel he is more pro ready. Also lots of kids become undrsdted free agents after their their year of college but turn down offers to turn pro to finish their degree, play another year or maybe up their stock. 

So not required that they be in their final year, but your right tends to happen that way. 

 

Correct on all counts here. Outside of the "Justin Schultz" loophole a drafted player needs to play all 4 years and then wait till August. 

 

Just a slight clarification, the drafted player has to wait 4 seasons, they don't have to be 4 college seasons. For example Justin Schultz played another year of Junior A before going to college where he played 3 seasons before becoming a UFA and going pro.

 

So with one of our prospects Mitchell Mattson, he is playing in the USHL this year and will be going to college next year, he only needs to play 3 seasons in college before he can become a UFA.

[AlbertaBoy12]

7 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Just a slight clarification, the drafted player has to wait 4 seasons, they don't have to be 4 college seasons. For example Justin Schultz played another year of Junior A before going to college where he played 3 seasons before becoming a UFA and going pro.

 

So with one of our prospects Mitchell Mattson, he is playing in the USHL this year and will be going to college next year, he only needs to play 3 seasons in college before he can become a UFA.

Yea so that would be the justin schultz loophole right?

 

Play a year of a league other then college and then 3 years of college, thereby giving you UFA rights. Ive never understood it personally, it just seems like a weird system where if you dont sign you get the pick of the litter. It doesnt usually happen with guys out of major junior who end up UFAs because they arent the same level of players usually, its a weird system.

[cross16]

2 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Yea so that would be the justin schultz loophole right?

 

Play a year of a league other then college and then 3 years of college, thereby giving you UFA rights. Ive never understood it personally, it just seems like a weird system where if you dont sign you get the pick of the litter. It doesnt usually happen with guys out of major junior who end up UFAs because they arent the same level of players usually, its a weird system.

 

correct. I didn't expand my answer so thanks for the extra input JTech but its the Justin Schultz loophole that allows a player to become a UFA earlier. 

 

It was designed to close the loophole that Mike Van Ryn exposed. At that time teams held the rights until the player left school but Ryan left college to to play in the CHL and won a case that because he was no longer a college player he should be declared a UFA. Next CBA, NHL changed it to that even if you left the level of hockey you were playing you still couldn't become a UFA until you played a certain number of seasons. 

[rickross]

Flames D needs to stop being put on a pedestal as an "elite" group because of their personnel. It really means nothing who you have if they aren't effective as a unit. Much like the Power Play was ragged on all off season until it became of the most efficient in the league they should put the same focus on the D. Gio and Hammy are getting top D man $'s, Brodie is a steal at his price but this D should be at the top of the league, England is overpaid but underrated and the additions of Stone and Bartkowski should level our 3rd and 4th pairings out. There's a lot of potential there and we've seen flashes but this group should be more revered on the ice.

[cross16]

13 minutes ago, rickross said:

Flames D needs to stop being put on a pedestal as an "elite" group because of their personnel. It really means nothing who you have if they aren't effective as a unit. Much like the Power Play was ragged on all off season until it became of the most efficient in the league they should put the same focus on the D. Gio and Hammy are getting top D man $'s, Brodie is a steal at his price but this D should be at the top of the league, England is overpaid but underrated and the additions of Stone and Bartkowski should level our 3rd and 4th pairings out. There's a lot of potential there and we've seen flashes but this group should be more revered on the ice.

 

 

Is that really happening? IMO that's a narrative that stuck around 2 off season ago when they acquired Hamilton but after lat year no one considers the Flames an "Elite" D group. Most acknowledge that the Flames have a very good top 3 but they have below avg and borderline poor depth at 4-6. I don't think i've seen anyone call the Flames D elite or even very good in a while. 

[JTech780]

I have seen a lot fo posts suggesting that Brodie's big problem this year is playing on the left side and that if he was moved back to the right side everything would fix itself. I don't really see this as a left side vs right side issue, I think this is a playing with Giordano vs not playing with Giordano issue. Backlund gets a lot of credit for making his linemates look a lot better, look what he did for Bouma and Colborne. Giordano doesn't get the same credit even though I believe the same is true. Giordano is so dependable and steady in all 3 zones that we almost take him for granted, but when you look at when Hamilton or Brodie's games took off it's when they played on a pairing with Giordano.

 

I think both Hamilton and Brodie have questionable decision making at times, I would rate Brodie's hockey IQ as fairly average, I think he covers it up a bit because he is an elite skater and he has a very active stick. I see Giordano being the stabilizing force for both players and he allows those players to play at their best, he allows covers up a lot of their flaws. I really think this comes down to getting to play with one of the elite and most underappreciated defenseman in the game right now or getting to play with Wideman or Engelland, that is a big drop in talent.

[cross16]

I agree 100% that the whole left side vs right side things is completely overblown and has nothing to do with it, but I also think that people are giving Brodie way too much flak. Has he had a great season, no probably not but I also feel like he had such a bad start to the year that people made up their mind on him. Personally, I thikn Brodie has played quite well since about the start of December. As well as he did last year, probably not, and that is partly the Gio effect for sure. I"m not sure how much credit i would give Gio specially but I would certainly agree that it is a massive talent drop to go from Gio down to Wideman/Engelland. Brodie is carrying those 2 on his back where you never have to carry Gio. I'm not taking anything away from Gio, he's a great dman but I do really wonder what would happen if Gio played with Wideman and Engelland. I"m not so sure you would see that different a result.

 

Since Dec 1, Brodie has 3 goals and 16 points in 34 games. That is a 6 goal and 38 point pace over a full season and basically right at his career norms (within about 5-7 points). The only dman who suppresses shots at a better rate than Brodie is Gio. He and Gio are basically equal in terms of their ability to limit scoring chances, and Brodie isn't far off in his ability to limit high danger scoring chances either, all from a 5 on 5 standpoint. Sure his plus minus is terrible but IMO that speak way more to who he plays with and less about Brodie himself. 

 

So I really don't understand the heat he takes. He has been asked to shoulder a TON this year and IMO he's done a more than admirable job. You are going to have to live with turnovers like last night but overall Brodie is still an upper end dman in the game IMO. I do think he can play better yes but I think people really underestimate the effect playing with Wideman and Engelland have on his game and his numbers. He literally is carrying 2 guys that quite frankly shouldn't be playing for a contending team period, let alone in a top 4 role. 

 

 

[MAC331]

25 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I agree 100% that the whole left side vs right side things is completely overblown and has nothing to do with it, but I also think that people are giving Brodie way too much flak. Has he had a great season, no probably not but I also feel like he had such a bad start to the year that people made up their mind on him. Personally, I thikn Brodie has played quite well since about the start of December. As well as he did last year, probably not, and that is partly the Gio effect for sure. I"m not sure how much credit i would give Gio specially but I would certainly agree that it is a massive talent drop to go from Gio down to Wideman/Engelland. Brodie is carrying those 2 on his back where you never have to carry Gio. I'm not taking anything away from Gio, he's a great dman but I do really wonder what would happen if Gio played with Wideman and Engelland. I"m not so sure you would see that different a result.

 

Since Dec 1, Brodie has 3 goals and 16 points in 34 games. That is a 6 goal and 38 point pace over a full season and basically right at his career norms (within about 5-7 points). The only dman who suppresses shots at a better rate than Brodie is Gio. He and Gio are basically equal in terms of their ability to limit scoring chances, and Brodie isn't far off in his ability to limit high danger scoring chances either, all from a 5 on 5 standpoint. Sure his plus minus is terrible but IMO that speak way more to who he plays with and less about Brodie himself. 

 

So I really don't understand the heat he takes. He has been asked to shoulder a TON this year and IMO he's done a more than admirable job. You are going to have to live with turnovers like last night but overal Brodie is still an upper end dman in the game IMO. 

 

 

I think it is all part of the rebuilding and eventually ending up with the right personel to play with each other.

[LouCifer]

I kindly disagree. When Gio went down with injury, Brodie stepped up much like the rest of the D corps at the time, and we made the playoffs. Brodie was a tank without Gio by his side. Furthermore, I even recall the media debating whether it was Gio elevating Brodie's game, or vice-versa. 

 

Additionally, I'm a left handed shot who's played right D my whole life. While I'm no NHL caliber player, I struggle playing the left side so much - my angles aren't as sharp, my stick defends towards the boards instead of the middle of the ice, etc. I would argue that switching sides is a huge adjustment, and Brodie has had to do it at the NHL level. 

 

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I have seen a lot fo posts suggesting that Brodie's big problem this year is playing on the left side and that if he was moved back to the right side everything would fix itself. I don't really see this as a left side vs right side issue, I think this is a playing with Giordano vs not playing with Giordano issue. 

 

[robrob74]

I didn't know where to put this, but because it deals with Wideman, I am posting here.

 

the Flames contacted the league about the penalties. They believe there is a Wideman effect.

 

Players are emotional, so are refs. The team chirping at the team doesn't help. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I didn't know where to put this, but because it deals with Wideman, I am posting here.

 

the Flames contacted the league about the penalties. They believe there is a Wideman effect.

 

Players are emotional, so are refs. The team chirping at the team doesn't help. 

I read that as well, I've asked people I know who aren't flames fans about penalties and they have literally said whys that a penalty. I don't think their is a conspiracy theory by refs, but I do think the refs need to do a better job, there is way too many poor calls across the league, and the refs lack consistency.

[AlbertaBoy12]

7 hours ago, lou44291 said:

I kindly disagree. When Gio went down with injury, Brodie stepped up much like the rest of the D corps at the time, and we made the playoffs. Brodie was a tank without Gio by his side. Furthermore, I even recall the media debating whether it was Gio elevating Brodie's game, or vice-versa. 

 

Additionally, I'm a left handed shot who's played right D my whole life. While I'm no NHL caliber player, I struggle playing the left side so much - my angles aren't as sharp, my stick defends towards the boards instead of the middle of the ice, etc. I would argue that switching sides is a huge adjustment, and Brodie has had to do it at the NHL level. 

 

 

You are being a bit dramatic I've also played D my whole life. Brodie has played left D in his career, it's not a new thing for him. While I agree the reads are different on opposite sides of the ice and it can be different, a high level NHL player shouldn't have a rough time. Brodie hasent struggled as much as everyone is making it out to be as cross pointed out, I personally don't think he has played that badly, he's struggled at times it happens.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

I read that as well, I've asked people I know who aren't flames fans about penalties and they have literally said whys that a penalty. I don't think their is a conspiracy theory by refs, but I do think the refs need to do a better job, there is way too many poor calls across the league, and the refs lack consistency.

 

I know what you mean. But playing beer league, I know we got the worst calls when we complained. Because we had the same 4-6 refs they knew our team were whiners, so a penalty was never the same on both sides. 

 

Thats where they should take emoyion out and hust call any infraction a penalty and teams will try not to. It was really the unfairness that makes it feel worse. I think that's probably more what is happening. Gaudreau gets slash, he complains and the refs take acception to that. 

[tmac70]

8 hours ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

You are being a bit dramatic I've also played D my whole life. Brodie has played left D in his career, it's not a new thing for him. While I agree the reads are different on opposite sides of the ice and it can be different, a high level NHL player shouldn't have a rough time. Brodie hasent struggled as much as everyone is making it out to be as cross pointed out, I personally don't think he has played that badly, he's struggled at times it happens.

Brodie has struggled this season a lot. The larger question is why? Personal, positional, partners or new systems. Brodie has elite skating skills which offsets some weak areas of his game. Change for some never comes easy and may never, he just may not ever be comfortable on the left side. Whether high level or not change sometimes is not a good thing. Brodie is good but the only thing elite about his game is his skating.

[MAC331]

11 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Brodie has struggled this season a lot. The larger question is why? Personal, positional, partners or new systems. Brodie has elite skating skills which offsets some weak areas of his game. Change for some never comes easy and may never, he just may not ever be comfortable on the left side. Whether high level or not change sometimes is not a good thing. Brodie is good but the only thing elite about his game is his skating.

Maybe all 3 but if you haven't noticed his improved play for the past month or so I don't know what to say. GG has talked with him and asked him to use his skills more, the team needs him shooting more, getting pucks to the net. Removing Wideman as a huge liability of a partner should also help the situation improve. Brodie has never been the type to heavy check anyone in the defensive zone but when he feels he has to do more to cover for his partner he gets himself in trouble. Brodie may not be elite but he is an exceptional defenseman.

[tmac70]

18 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Maybe all 3 but if you haven't noticed his improved play for the past month or so I don't know what to say. GG has talked with him and asked him to use his skills more, the team needs him shooting more, getting pucks to the net. Removing Wideman as a huge liability of a partner should also help the situation improve. Brodie has never been the type to heavy check anyone in the defensive zone but when he feels he has to do more to cover for his partner he gets himself in trouble. Brodie may not be elite but he is an exceptional defenseman.

I would say after removing Wideman he looked the worse he did last game, could be a blimp, can't play well every game. To each their own, he is a good Dman, exceptional or elite i would disagree with those statements

[AlbertaBoy12]

1 minute ago, tmac70 said:

I would say after removing Wideman he looked the worse he did last game, could be a blimp, can't play well every game. To each their own, he is a good Dman, exceptional or elite i would disagree with those statements

He looked really bad with engelland to start the game, but playing with stone in the third I actually thought they looked good as a pairing in limited minutes in the third.

[Cowtownguy]

I believe that Brodie is an excellent defenceman. He is not at the top of his game because of a change in the system while also dealing with a personal issue at home. I think we are seeing an individual struggling to focus this year. He will work it out IMO.

[MAC331]

44 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

I would say after removing Wideman he looked the worse he did last game, could be a blimp, can't play well every game. To each their own, he is a good Dman, exceptional or elite i would disagree with those statements

I don't think you have any assessment talent if you can't recognize Brodie as an exceptional talent. The whole league raves about the player but all you do is find fault with any struggle that crops up.