Official Sam Bennett Discussion Thread

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

So slower developing means trade him in your world ? I think you are failing to take into account the revolving door of line mates and plus being shifted around to other positions himself. I think he has played very well of late.

 

I would trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Giordano, Brodie, etc.  It all depends on the return.

 

Bennett developing "slow" (but more like developing rapidly in the wrong direction) means I'm disappointed in him.

 

How you link disappointment as a reason to trade him is inaccurate.  Nowhere did I say I'm disappointed so therefore let's trade him.  Sorry if it comes off that way.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Draisaitl has an addition year of development under him.  Played 1/2 a year in the NHL and a 1/2 a year in junior.  His first year in the NHL was putrid.  Last year and this year, Draisaitl played with top 6 players.  A lot of time spent on the wing.  Compare that to Bennett, who played on a wing with Granlund for part of the year and Backlund for the rest.  This year is his real first time playing a NHL center position.   And his linemates have been (currently) 4th line players, Gaudreau when he was struggling, and now two RHS.  I like Versteeg, but he isn't set up to pass on LW.  He is set up for curling at the blueline or a one-timer.  

 

Except Bennett had a modestly decent rookie season last year contradicting all the excuse you are providing him.  

 

This year, he has been challenged to step up at a fair pace and timely manner but failed to show much, if not outright showed regression.

 

Versteeg and Brouwer are not the worst linemates in the world either.  You can argue he has had better linemates to play with this year compared to last year.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Giordano, Brodie, etc.  It all depends on the return.

 

Bennett developing "slow" (but more like developing rapidly in the wrong direction) means I'm disappointed in him.

 

How you link disappointment as a reason to trade him is inaccurate.  Nowhere did I say I'm disappointed so therefore let's trade him.  Sorry if it comes off that way.

 

The first three players have superstar potential.  I'm not talking a trade like Kessel where the return would be good.  These are bonafide players that could challenge the scoring race on a yearly basis.  What would you need to get to give up a player like that?  Maybe you can point out a team that trades a player like that who wins the trade.

Seguin didn't get value.  Thorton didn't get value.  Kessel #1 got two picks that were top 10, but that was a huge mistake.  Kessel #2 didn't get anything more than Freddie Andersen, Kapenen and a player they traded with Polk for some picks.  

[travel_dude]

42 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Except Bennett had a modestly decent rookie season last year contradicting all the excuse you are providing him.  

 

This year, he has been challenged to step up at a fair pace and timely manner but failed to show much, if not outright showed regression.

 

Versteeg and Brouwer are not the worst linemates in the world either.  You can argue he has had better linemates to play with this year compared to last year.

 

Did he play center much last year?  No.  Decent in scoring for a rookie winger.  

 

Verteeg is a good finisher, while Brouwer has not been.  But Versteeg has also scored 6 of his 12 on the PP.  

Bennett's line was had the most change over the season for linemates.  The present incarnation has not seen much success for any of the players.  That leads me to believe that we just don't have the right fit for that line yet.  Maybe down the road, Tkachuk is exactly the right player.  Bennett had some chemistry with Frolik last year, so maybe that is an option down the road.  We don't have a replacement for Tkachuk or Frolik on the Backlund line right now, so it's hard to improve Bennett's line.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

he couldn't go to the AHL until this season due to age so last year it was either junior or Pro and IMO the Flames made the right call. There is no map or generic process for development you have to treat everyone differently.

 

Disagree, but understand

 

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

But yes I do think Hartley should have put him at center earlier last year especially when the Flames were out of it. I don't mind sheltering a player early on to get his feet wet but it didn't make sense to me why Hartley even towards the end of the season still didn't want to use Bennett at center. I'm happy that this year, sink or swim, Gulutzan has committed to Bennett being a center and allowing him to work through the ups and downs that comes with that position. 

 

Yup.   That was a desperate coach.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Except Bennett had a modestly decent rookie season last year contradicting all the excuse you are providing him.  

 

This year, he has been challenged to step up at a fair pace and timely manner but failed to show much, if not outright showed regression.

 

Versteeg and Brouwer are not the worst linemates in the world either.  You can argue he has had better linemates to play with this year compared to last year.

 

Listen to Burke's interview today. Calm down! 

He is here to stay and will be good! He isn't trending in the wrong direction. He is slowly getting better at C and would be near 20 goals now if he was a winger all year. 

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Giordano, Brodie, etc.  It all depends on the return.

 

Bennett developing "slow" (but more like developing rapidly in the wrong direction) means I'm disappointed in him.

 

How you link disappointment as a reason to trade him is inaccurate.  Nowhere did I say I'm disappointed so therefore let's trade him.  Sorry if it comes off that way.

There are times to trade and there are times to continue building with the pieces that you believe will get you where you want to go. There is a lot to take into consideration when trading and improving the team should be the reason for doing so. Having said that spending your current dollars and future dollars also has to taken into consideration. There have been conscious decisions to start all of Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett and Tkachuk earlier than usual because we had need and were rebuilding. In all of their cases I think you have to be prepared to live through the good and the bad as you use youth in this manner. Your disappointment is due to not managing your own expectations of players which as a fan you have every right however the organization takes a way different view and is prepared for a longer commitment. I think Bennett will turn out as expected given this season into next.

[cross16]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Except Bennett had a modestly decent rookie season last year contradicting all the excuse you are providing him.  

 

This year, he has been challenged to step up at a fair pace and timely manner but failed to show much, if not outright showed regression.

 

Versteeg and Brouwer are not the worst linemates in the world either.  You can argue he has had better linemates to play with this year compared to last year.

 

They are pretty bad though, especially Brouwer. Sure Bennett should ideally be having a better season but I don't agree with the term regression. He's really made strides in his defensive game and his offensive game has tailed off like you think. Consider that 5 on 5 Bennett has more goals /60 than drasaitl and points isn't that far off. Drasaitl puts up 1.76, Bennett 1.37 and that includes drasaitl playing primarily with Mcdavid. Sam Reinhart only has 1.44 points /60 so it's not really true to say Drasaitl and Reinhart are playing so much better. Bennett gets no PP time so you can't expect his raw numbers to be that high. 

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Listen to Burke's interview today. Calm down! 

He is here to stay and will be good! He isn't trending in the wrong direction. He is slowly getting better at C and would be near 20 goals now if he was a winger all year. 

Did Burke say this or you ? just clarifying

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Draisaitl has an addition year of development under him.  Played 1/2 a year in the NHL and a 1/2 a year in junior.  His first year in the NHL was putrid.  Last year and this year, Draisaitl played with top 6 players.  A lot of time spent on the wing.  Compare that to Bennett, who played on a wing with Granlund for part of the year and Backlund for the rest.  This year is his real first time playing a NHL center position.   And his linemates have been (currently) 4th line players, Gaudreau when he was struggling, and now two RHS.  I like Versteeg, but he isn't set up to pass on LW.  He is set up for curling at the blueline or a one-timer.  

 

Well exactly.   Draisaitl was sent back to junior and developed there in a way he couldn't in the NHL.

 

It is a little frustrating when the Oilers, of All teams, finally figure out this basic development concept, and we still flounder with it.

 

I know the overwhelming majority feel that Bennett should have been in the NHL asap.  And yes, the AHL would have been best, but just because he couldn't do that doesn't make junior a bad option.   I read so much on here about how junior would have made him worse....with so little explanation.

 

I have never...ever....seen a case of a player becoming worse from playing junior hockey.   I personally don't get it.  But oh well.

[cross16]

I think people are forgetting something about Bennett, he played a full season in the OHL before his draft yesr. He spent 3 season in junior, including the injury one, which is pretty much the same as all first round draft picks. Draisaitl played a whopping 20 games more in junior than Bennett, excluding playoffs. 

[jjgallow]

23 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think people are forgetting something about Bennett, he played a full season in the OHL before hisndrsft yesr. He spent 3 season in junior, including the injury one, which is pretty much the same as all first round draft picks. Draisaitl played a whopping 20 games more in junior than Bennett, excluding playoffs. 

 

I don't see how that is relevant or special or remarkable that Bennett played a full OHL season at some point other than the point in his development we're talking about, or that Draisaitl didn't (because he's not from here).   A player doesn't just stop developing because they started junior earlier.  I just don't see that connection?

 

Sure, Draisaitl had transitioning.  Likewise, Bennett was out of the game entirely for a year.  I don't see why either of those is reason to think they're too good for junior.  Seems to me those are too mighty good reasons to play junior.

 

It's not just Draisaitl, it's Schefele, it's Loads of players.

 

It stares you in the face whenever you look at success.   Take the NHL's top ten point getters right now:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=0&gameType=2&report=skatersummary&pos=S&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20162017&seasonTo=20162017&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

 

Out of the top 10, IN THE NHL...how many pulled that off?   4.   The other 6 all spent more development time before making the jump.

 

And of those 4, 3 are near-generational players.     And Seguin, if he could go back, probably wouldn't have jumped in as early as he did.   That looks like a mistake now.

 

 

So the question is....  IS Bennett Generational?    If not...why is he so much more special than Almost every other example out there of a successful, elite NHLer?    Because after those top 10 (top 20 etc), the arguement isn't even close.  It swings harshly in favour of more development time.

 

It should be obvious, imho.   That's Before factoring in his season-ending injury after the draft.

 

Just my opinion.  Or maybe it's just a coincidence that almost every highly successful NHL player has this on their resume.

 

[cross16]

The point is people are pointing to guys like Schieflle and Drasaitl and saying "look those organizations did it right. Expect they did basically the same thing the Flames did with Bennett but yet the flames made an error and the Jets and Oilers got it right. It's very uncommon for a top prospect to play more than 3 years of junior. 

Bennett played 3 seasons of junior, showed he was ready in the playoffs, the following training camp, all of last season and now that he isn't having the season people want some question he decision using hindsight. Thst doesn't make sense to me. He wasn't rushed. 

I get you wil, disagree JJ and that's fine. We clearly see development differently. I think playing 3 seasons in junior, even with an injury shortened season, is more than enough development time in junior. You should be ready for your next challenge by then if your are a good prospect, let alone a gray while. 

[Flyerfan52]

jj, you have to take into consideration that some of those players had no choice but to play an extra year of junior because due to the 2004-05 stoppage. No NHL that year kept players from the 2004 draft getting 1 more year of fine tuning (OV & Malkin were 1 & 2 picks that year).

Many of the 2003 draftees were returned to junior for 1 more year & tasted the AHL playoffs when their junior teams were eliminated. These players resulted in TC's super team @ the 2005 WJC

[CheersMan]

On ‎2015‎-‎05‎-‎21 at 10:41 PM, jjgallow said:

Bennett will be head-to-head with Connor McDavid for Rookie of the Year next year.

 

I have no idea why anyone here would be dissapointed.

 

Normally, I believe in sheltering and protecting prospects.   Bennett is an exception.

 

He is our last exception of this rebuild (Monahan was the only other one).

 

He will be ready to be a core player next season.  Period.  And I would peg him as a strong candidate for captain in the near future.

 

 

We could have had Three exceptions.....it wasn't that long ago that we were tied neck and neck with Buffalo for Connor McDavid and Eichel...but we had to be "special" and make the playoffs....lol.    Time will tell if that was the right way to go.  But I digress.

 

 

With anyone, except Bennett and Monahan, yes.  Shelter them.  Give them time. AHL.  Junior.  limited minutes.  All that good stuff.

 

 

But Bennett?  Oh no.  He'll be ready.  He's already made that clear as daylight.

 

I'm confused.  You were in favour of Bennett making the jump to the NHL here, but.............

 

42 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I don't see how that is relevant or special or remarkable that Bennett played a full OHL season at some point other than the point in his development we're talking about, or that Draisaitl didn't (because he's not from here).   A player doesn't just stop developing because they started junior earlier.  I just don't see that connection?

 

Sure, Draisaitl had transitioning.  Likewise, Bennett was out of the game entirely for a year.  I don't see why either of those is reason to think they're too good for junior.  Seems to me those are too mighty good reasons to play junior.

 

It's not just Draisaitl, it's Schefele, it's Loads of players.

 

It stares you in the face whenever you look at success.   Take the NHL's top ten point getters right now:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=0&gameType=2&report=skatersummary&pos=S&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20162017&seasonTo=20162017&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

 

Out of the top 10, IN THE NHL...how many pulled that off?   4.   The other 6 all spent more development time before making the jump.

 

And of those 4, 3 are near-generational players.     And Seguin, if he could go back, probably wouldn't have jumped in as early as he did.   That looks like a mistake now.

 

 

So the question is....  IS Bennett Generational?    If not...why is he so much more special than Almost every other example out there of a successful, elite NHLer?    Because after those top 10 (top 20 etc), the arguement isn't even close.  It swings harshly in favour of more development time.

 

It should be obvious, imho.   That's Before factoring in his season-ending injury after the draft.

 

Just my opinion.  Or maybe it's just a coincidence that almost every highly successful NHL player has this on their resume.

 

 

But not here?????

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

But not here?????

 

Well Obviously, one of those is very wrong.

 

Based on Bennett's performance, which do you think is which?

 

I'm as susceptible as anyone else here to being a Flames fan and having rose colored glasses.  Espeically in the playoffs, when that was written.   I don't necessarily apologise for that, but it doesn't mean you keep thinking that two years later when it's clearly not the case.

[jjgallow]

On 14/09/2015 at 7:12 PM, jjgallow said:

 

This would be the best-case scenario and I'm glad you brought it up (most of us were assuming he'd be on the team).

 

If he spends another year in junior, it will only make him better.  If he spends this season in the NHL...well we don't know what it will do.

 

If he keeps playing like he is (great, but not amazing), he'll get sent down after 9 games.

 

My guess is, though, as we get closer to the start of the season, he will adjust is play to "amazing", and force the Flames to keep him.  I'm not suggesting I want this.  I just see it as highly probable.

 

Because although he's not Monahan, in many ways he could be better.   As crazy as that sounds.

 

Here is me just 4 months after my rose colored playoff glasses, suggesting we put him back in junior where he belongs.

 

I sobered up quick.  Playoff talk can be misleading

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Again I'll use the Scheifele example. He was  still playing junior 2 years after many taken before or after him were in the big league. In his 1st 2 years in the NHL he wasn't what you call remarkable (except those who'd been puzzled the Jets took him that early saying he was a wasted pick & they'd told us so) . That changed when all his training, specialized workouts & sheer determination came together. Many now consider him 1 of the top young centers in the league without the major hype of a McDavid or Matthews & He's tied for 3rd among centers & 6th in overall scoring.

 

I haven't given up on Sam because he wasn't that immediate top end player. Much of the predraft hype & comparisons to players is based on what the talking heads project him to be. I hope he's quietly following in the shoes of players like Scheifele.

When Monahan was 1st drafted he spoke of spending his spare time watching film of the highly regarded centers in the game to learn & adopt some of what worked for them. He specifically mentioned face-offs & wins 52.9% so he obviously concentrates of those. I hope that itch to be the best & willingness to work for it continues.

 

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Did he play center much last year?  No.  Decent in scoring for a rookie winger.  

 

Verteeg is a good finisher, while Brouwer has not been.  But Versteeg has also scored 6 of his 12 on the PP.  

Bennett's line was had the most change over the season for linemates.  The present incarnation has not seen much success for any of the players.  That leads me to believe that we just don't have the right fit for that line yet.  Maybe down the road, Tkachuk is exactly the right player.  Bennett had some chemistry with Frolik last year, so maybe that is an option down the road.  We don't have a replacement for Tkachuk or Frolik on the Backlund line right now, so it's hard to improve Bennett's line.

 

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Listen to Burke's interview today. Calm down! 

He is here to stay and will be good! He isn't trending in the wrong direction. He is slowly getting better at C and would be near 20 goals now if he was a winger all year. 

 

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

There are times to trade and there are times to continue building with the pieces that you believe will get you where you want to go. There is a lot to take into consideration when trading and improving the team should be the reason for doing so. Having said that spending your current dollars and future dollars also has to taken into consideration. There have been conscious decisions to start all of Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett and Tkachuk earlier than usual because we had need and were rebuilding. In all of their cases I think you have to be prepared to live through the good and the bad as you use youth in this manner. Your disappointment is due to not managing your own expectations of players which as a fan you have every right however the organization takes a way different view and is prepared for a longer commitment. I think Bennett will turn out as expected given this season into next.

 

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

They are pretty bad though, especially Brouwer. Sure Bennett should ideally be having a better season but I don't agree with the term regression. He's really made strides in his defensive game and his offensive game has tailed off like you think. Consider that 5 on 5 Bennett has more goals /60 than drasaitl and points isn't that far off. Drasaitl puts up 1.76, Bennett 1.37 and that includes drasaitl playing primarily with Mcdavid. Sam Reinhart only has 1.44 points /60 so it's not really true to say Drasaitl and Reinhart are playing so much better. Bennett gets no PP time so you can't expect his raw numbers to be that high. 

 

So you guys are essentially saying that you are NOT disappointed in Sam Bennett's performance/production/development/etc thus far in the NHL?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

They are pretty bad though, especially Brouwer. Sure Bennett should ideally be having a better season but I don't agree with the term regression. He's really made strides in his defensive game and his offensive game has tailed off like you think. Consider that 5 on 5 Bennett has more goals /60 than drasaitl and points isn't that far off. Drasaitl puts up 1.76, Bennett 1.37 and that includes drasaitl playing primarily with Mcdavid. Sam Reinhart only has 1.44 points /60 so it's not really true to say Drasaitl and Reinhart are playing so much better. Bennett gets no PP time so you can't expect his raw numbers to be that high. 

 

Draisaitl played two seasons with EDM's most talented players.

He had McDavid for almost all of this season and Hall last season.  His play tailed off after McDavid came back last season.  

Put Bennett with either of those players for a season, and EDM would be claiming Bennett is the far superior player.

 

This year we have been spoiled by Backlund playing the entire season as a #1C and Monahan playing part of the season like one.  

[CheersMan]

13 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well Obviously, one of those is very wrong.

 

Based on Bennett's performance, which do you think is which?

 

I'm as susceptible as anyone else here to being a Flames fan and having rose colored glasses.  Espeically in the playoffs, when that was written.   I don't necessarily apologise for that, but it doesn't mean you keep thinking that two years later when it's clearly not the case.

 

You said that 11 days after the Flames were eliminated by ANA from the playoffs.  We had all cooled down by that point.  Not sure what could have changed in the offseason.

 

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Here is me just 4 months after my rose colored playoff glasses, suggesting we put him back in junior where he belongs.

 

I sobered up quick.  Playoff talk can be misleading

 

Its ok JJ, us fans are all allowed redo's, but our coaches and GM"s, now that's another story.

 

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well exactly.   Draisaitl was sent back to junior and developed there in a way he couldn't in the NHL.

 

It is a little frustrating when the Oilers, of All teams, finally figure out this basic development concept, and we still flounder with it.

 

I know the overwhelming majority feel that Bennett should have been in the NHL asap.  And yes, the AHL would have been best, but just because he couldn't do that doesn't make junior a bad option.   I read so much on here about how junior would have made him worse....with so little explanation.

 

I have never...ever....seen a case of a player becoming worse from playing junior hockey.   I personally don't get it.  But oh well.

 

How about Michael Dal Colle, drafted immediately behind Bennett, 188 pts in his last two OHL seasons and never given a sniff of the big league.  Maybe he'd be a $6M man today if was given and early opportunity?  Will never know now.  

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

So you guys are essentially saying that you are NOT disappointed in Sam Bennett's performance/production/development/etc thus far in the NHL?

 

I think some of us were saying that last year was a waste for Bennett's development as a center.  Think of this as his first full year as a NHL center.  I am more upset about him losing his first year due to injury.  

[jjgallow]

4 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

You said that 11 days after the Flames were eliminated by ANA from the playoffs.  We had all cooled down by that point.  Not sure what could have changed in the offseason.

 

?  Not all of us cooled down that quickly, that's an odd statement.

 

4 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Its ok JJ, us fans are all allowed redo's, but our coaches and GM"s, now that's another story.

 

I was suggesting he go back to junior, when he was still within his time limit to go back there.   So I don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

But yes, I do also hold the coaches and GMs to a higher standard than fans.

 

4 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

How about Michael Dal Colle, drafted immediately behind Bennett, 188 pts in his last two OHL seasons and never given a sniff of the big league.  Maybe he'd be a $6M man today if was given and early opportunity?  Will never know now.  

 

omg

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

So you guys are essentially saying that you are NOT disappointed in Sam Bennett's performance/production/development/etc thus far in the NHL?

 

Do I wish he had more points and was more dangerous on a consistent basis, sure. Would I use terms like "regressing" or "disappointed" no. 

 

Hes going to ne a very good player, no doubt in my mind. Its a process and that process is not linear for all. If he was showing no imrovorment I would be concerned or disappointed. 

[Carty]

Burke on Bennett today...    from: http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/brian-burke-gulutzan-throwing-flames-players-under-bus-was-turning-point/ar-AAnZr0G?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartandhp

 

[The_People1]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think some of us were saying that last year was a waste for Bennett's development as a center.  Think of this as his first full year as a NHL center.  I am more upset about him losing his first year due to injury.  

 

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Do I wish he had more points and was more dangerous on a consistent basis, sure. Would I use terms like "regressing" or "disappointed" no. 

 

Hes going to ne a very good player, no doubt in my mind. Its a process and that process is not linear for all. If he was showing no imrovorment I would be concerned or disappointed. 

 

I thought i asked a pretty simple question looking for a simple answer but what a fail.  Perhaps a better question is "what level of disappointment do you have in Bennett's career thus far?"  Like on a scale from 0 to 10 where 10 is irredeemably disappointed.  I'm a solid 8.  You guys?