Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[The_People1]

This debate isn't really about losing intentionally.  Not one person voted that the Flames should lose intentionally.  We all know they shouldn't lose intentionally.  What it boils down to is this, is the current success going to help us or hinder us long term.  

 

This sums it up nicely.

 

I'm cheering when the Flames lose because that gives them an immediate advantage at the draft table.  They may still pick the wrong guy but at least you win that advantage by losing games.  That advantage is huge and i feel when the playoffs are mathematically impossible, it's worth it to cheer for losses because its unfortunately a rewarding result.

 

Futhermore, it is possible to cheer for the Flames to approach games with the right attitude and yet, still cheer when they lose.  It sounds confusing, almost contradictory, but it's not.  This confusion is further exasperated by fans wrongly linking losing to a perpetual sinking trap that cannot be escaped from once entered.  In the face of examples provided by the Colorado Avalanche, the Tampa Bay Lightning, the Chicago Blackhawks, the Pittsburgh Penguins, etc, they still deny the fact that its possible to draft high and come out from the cellar.  Everyone is aware of the faults of the Edmonton Oilers and New York Islanders who can't seem to get it right.  I can aknowledge the danger but i cannot even begin to pretend the Flames will undoubtably become one of those two teams.

[The_People1]

Perhaps I did get frustrated with my response, but it doesn't make it any less correct.  Places like Nashville, Phoenix, and Winnipeg are fine examples of what you are supporting, but....

 

What does Nashville have to offer?  They're ever-so-slowly shedding the wet-blanket feel when they get a lead, and haven't produced anything of significance since their inception.

 

Phoenix is still unstable.  Sure, they've got new ownership,but for how long?  Short-term history doesn't lend well to a positive outlook (although I truly hope the new ownership gets that franchise stable for a long time).

 

Winnipeg still has that new-car smell, but with the underlying stench of Thraser (admittedly, it's quickly dissipating).  At least one more season like this one (hopefully better) will start to change perceptions around the league.

 

Edmonton has done itself no favours with the the front-office turnover, head-coaching turmoil, and public spats and feuds with players.  Until that climate calms down, it will still be a no-man's-land.  Mike Babcock, if given the proper leeway, could absolutely make Edmonton a place to be once again, but it will take at least 3 seasons to do so (if he lasted that long).

 

We have Bob Hartly, who's demonstrated what he can do with a bunch of kids.  We (finally) have a kick-checking from behind-and-take-names GM in Burke, and like him or not, he brings a certain measure of respectibility to the team.  We have the observable response of the players to the coach, and the rest of the league (and media) have taken notice.

 

There's nobody who could have predicted at the start of the season that we'd have accomplished what we have (respect in the league) in just the first season of a rebuild.

 

And to suggest that the Flames should tank the rest of the season would instantly negate all of that.  We'd be better off if we iced the entire Abbotsford team from the start of the season if that's what you'd want to accomplish.

 

We've (the team) earned everything we've received this year: wins, losses, etc.  Wins and losses, though, are a day-to-day thing.  Respect and positive attention are longer-lasting and have much deeper meaning.

 

On the subject of "way too much stock in morale carrying over", how long did we on these boards scream about the country-club mentality of this team, and how it was getting us nowhere, and how it had to change before our fortunes would change?  Well, we've got that change now, and damn it feels good. Good vibes create good things, and this team has finally got the good vibes flowing for them once again.

 

Nashville, Phoenix, and Winnipeg are above us in the standings.  They are playing hard and fighting for wins down the stretch even more than we are.  It may be hard to believe but they are all more respected than us and most importantly, they are not attracting high end UFAs anytime soon.

 

Barry Trotz has earned a reputation as a coach who can get a lot out of very little talent.  He is more respected than Bob Hartley.

 

Phoenix plays one of the most disciplined systems in the league and has almost all the pieces in place to compete for a Cup.  They are very attactive for a superstar UFA who believes he's the missing piece.

 

Winnipeg is probably a playoff team if they were in still in the Eastern Conference.

 

Edmonton, well, no one wants to go to Edmonton.

 

So while yes, the Flames have won respect where absolutely none was expected, it is only "some" respect.  When you fail with 20% on your exam and was expecting 0%, it's not worth celebrating.  The Flames still need more.

[jjgallow]

So while yes, the Flames have won respect where absolutely none was expected, it is only "some" respect.  When you fail with 20% on your exam and was expecting 0%, it's not worth celebrating.  The Flames still need more.

 

Exactly, exactly.

 

We do need more.   We'll get there faster with higher draft picks.  And I think we'll continue to get higher draft picks for a while, no matter than management does.

 

A lot of comments earlier on this thread of how "well if you just need high draft picks, why isn't Edmonton better".

 

Well.....you don't JUST need high draft picks.  But they are a Really important piece.

 

Think of it this way....would Edmonton be a better team without those high draft picks?   No.   Although it's hard to conceive....Very hard.....they would actually be worse.

[Flyerfan52]

So while yes, the Flames have won respect where absolutely none was expected, it is only "some" respect.  When you fail with 20% on your exam and was expecting 0%, it's not worth celebrating.  The Flames still need more.

So it would be better to get 0% ?

The only 1s that would expect 0 are those that hope to fail for some reason. If it's college exam it could mean some immature kid is afraid of the real world & would rather keep living on mommy & daddy's dime. In the real world there is responsibility that some find frightening.

 

Translated to position of draft order that would mean a concious decision to have the team play worse. Rest your best players in games you should win, demote players for scoring too much & the like. I doubt we'll see that.

 

As to respect, isn't it better to garner some rather then be a laughing stock?

[kehatch]

I think where you and I are different Peeps is that when the Flames win a game you are disappointed that we are 2 points away from the top draft pick. I look at it as an affirmation that maybe our kids are further along than I thought they were.

I would love the top pick. But I would love more to find out that the players already in the system are finding success.

[KidKappa]

I would not want our team to give anything less than 100% and try to win every game no matter our standings or what time of the year it is.  If we have a few less players to choose from so be it, the culture of winning is far more important than the difference between 2 potential prospects.  Also very selfish on management/team to throw in the towel.  If I save up the $1200 that it takes for tickets for my family, a 6 hour drive, 2 nights in a hotel and my sons first NHL game just to see the management/team vying for a higher draft pick that is unacceptable.  I'm guessing that almost every game is some kids first live viewing of the Flames and they owe it to him/her to win.  Not to mention that this time of year is some of our other prospects first NHL games and the vets owe it to them to get them wins as well.  Winning is what we should strive for.  Now and every day after today.   

[Wreckening]

I think where you and I are different Peeps is that when the Flames win a game you are disappointed that we are 2 points away from the top draft pick. I look at it as an affirmation that maybe our kids are further along than I thought they were.

I would love the top pick. But I would love more to find out that the players already in the system are finding success.

+1 to you sir.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

[redfire11]

Only thing that matters is were in the #4 spot now, and we have 1 less game to play then the Islanders.

 

Go Islanders Go ,Go Islanders Go ,Go Islanders Go ,  and ahhhhh Go Flames Go

[CheersMan]

So while yes, the Flames have won respect where absolutely none was expected, it is only "some" respect.  When you fail with 20% on your exam and was expecting 0%, it's not worth celebrating.  The Flames still need more.

The Flames current position in the standings is exactly where they were predicted to be.

Fans were not expecting zero percent this year, nor were 19,000 season ticket holders. Fans were expecting to see a change in direction, but NOT finishing dead last! Our 37 year old goaltender (god love him) decided not to return. Our leading minute muncher on Defence was traded because he still had the same 12 dozen eggs in his pocket as the ones he arrived with from Florida 5 yrs previous. Our captain (god love him) was 36 yrs old. The formula was not working, those three players were not getting us to the playoffs, it was time for change. Change came, and the expectation on winning was not lost thanks to our coaches and management.

[andymo]

Our draft position will most likely be 4th,5th, 6th or 1st in that order. This lands us in Dal Colle/Draisatl range with around a 10% shot as 1st overall. Yet despite our lowly place in the standings we can be proud of our showing in 2014. We have won most of our games since mid January with a number of very young players flourishing and showing they can be a big part of a very competitive Flames team of the future. A very promising start to our rebuild...

[robrob1974]

Exactly, exactly.

 

We do need more.   We'll get there faster with higher draft picks.  And I think we'll continue to get higher draft picks for a while, no matter than management does.

 

A lot of comments earlier on this thread of how "well if you just need high draft picks, why isn't Edmonton better".

 

Well.....you don't JUST need high draft picks.  But they are a Really important piece.

 

Think of it this way....would Edmonton be a better team without those high draft picks?   No.   Although it's hard to conceive....Very hard.....they would actually be worse.

 

I agree. And I've had that argument about the Islanders too. Florida is only starting to try and turn it around and are knee deep in a rebuild and still have a far way to go. They're just a step ahead of us… 

 

The thing about something you said earlier in some post, maybe this one, is, we're not leaving room for new prospects. The thing is, we didn't have young prospects to leave room for and now we do. So I do expect a lot not being re-signed this year to have those roster spots available for new blood. 

 

I am prepared to cheer for the team, and don't mind if we're bottom feeders for the next year or so. I am not cheering for them to lose so much as I don't have the expectations that we're going to move up very much if anything. 

 

Kelly Hrudey was on the Team1040 today and they asked what his prediction for the next year for the Flames was. He talked about how the talent level is still pretty low on the Flames and if it's not addressed expect the same or worse next year. He also asked how long can this team play at this level before bottoming out. 

 

If we continue to build on our decent drafting over the last few years and add pieces that can play bottom6 on top of getting higher end (hoping they turn out drafting from 4-6 overall), then we could, within the next 4-5 years, see a half decent team. I am not holding my breath hoping they turn it around in the next few years.

 

For me, this is why I like that Baertschi is in the AHL… I would rather him play high minutes, dominate a year or two and then when he can't do anymore/achieve anything new in the AHL, play him on the Flames. It will also continue to nurture winning within him or any of the other prospects who we take our time with.

[robrob1974]

This sums it up nicely.

 

I'm cheering when the Flames lose because that gives them an immediate advantage at the draft table.  They may still pick the wrong guy but at least you win that advantage by losing games.  That advantage is huge and i feel when the playoffs are mathematically impossible, it's worth it to cheer for losses because its unfortunately a rewarding result.

 

Futhermore, it is possible to cheer for the Flames to approach games with the right attitude and yet, still cheer when they lose.  It sounds confusing, almost contradictory, but it's not.  This confusion is further exasperated by fans wrongly linking losing to a perpetual sinking trap that cannot be escaped from once entered.  In the face of examples provided by the Colorado Avalanche, the Tampa Bay Lightning, the Chicago Blackhawks, the Pittsburgh Penguins, etc, they still deny the fact that its possible to draft high and come out from the cellar.  Everyone is aware of the faults of the Edmonton Oilers and New York Islanders who can't seem to get it right.  I can aknowledge the danger but i cannot even begin to pretend the Flames will undoubtably become one of those two teams.

 

 

I agree, while I don't believe the Flames are going to lose on purpose. I am ok when the do lose. I just don't see this getting much better over the summer. We will hover in this same space next year as well, anywhere from 1st overall to 5th. 

 

See, I think a lot of posters who use those arguments you suggested, are afraid of becoming those teams. I get it too. But at the same time, imagine those teams not getting those higher draft picks, where would they be? Also, if we have that much faith in our drafting, a lower draft pick means all the better because our later rounds might find gems like Gaudreau. 

 

The biggest thing we have to do now is continue to invest in the Heat and development. Do not rush players in and allow them to develop in their time. Success will be judged by the career of a player, not on how fast he gets into the NHL. What ever is best for the player's development.

[travel_dude]

Nashville, Phoenix, and Winnipeg are above us in the standings.  They are playing hard and fighting for wins down the stretch even more than we are.  It may be hard to believe but they are all more respected than us and most importantly, they are not attracting high end UFAs anytime soon.

 

Barry Trotz has earned a reputation as a coach who can get a lot out of very little talent.  He is more respected than Bob Hartley.

 

Phoenix plays one of the most disciplined systems in the league and has almost all the pieces in place to compete for a Cup.  They are very attactive for a superstar UFA who believes he's the missing piece.

 

Winnipeg is probably a playoff team if they were in still in the Eastern Conference.

 

Edmonton, well, no one wants to go to Edmonton.

 

So while yes, the Flames have won respect where absolutely none was expected, it is only "some" respect.  When you fail with 20% on your exam and was expecting 0%, it's not worth celebrating.  The Flames still need more.

Nashville, Phoenix and the Peg have had less goalie drama than us and are not in year one of a rebuild.  They are not that far ahead of us in the standing.   Except for Winnipeg, would you really want to watch those other 2 teams play 82 game?  Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Those teams do not have respect as much as some of the individuals on them do.  Weber, Rinne, Doan, Big Buff, OEL, Kane, etc.

 

Trotz has respect because he brought his team to the playoff for many years in a row.  He is also in danger of being fired.

 

I would rather watch our team of kids and minor stars make a game of it every night.  If we had stuck with Ramo from the get-go and one or two less injured players, we might have actually been fighting for 8th.  That would have been a bigger letdown for you, because with might have ended up missing the playoff and drafting 14th.

 

Our winning is not causing us problems, it the others below us that refuse to win (Oilers and Florida).  The only time EDM would pick up a win was after we had got one.  Most of the time (lately) that we lost, EDM would also lose.

[Krule]

I would rather watch our team of kids and minor stars make a game of it every night.  If we had stuck with Ramo from the get-go and one or two less injured players, we might have actually been fighting for 8th.  That would have been a bigger letdown for you, because with might have ended up missing the playoff and drafting 14th.

 

Our winning is not causing us problems, it the others below us that refuse to win (Oilers and Florida).  The only time EDM would pick up a win was after we had got one.  Most of the time (lately) that we lost, EDM would also lose.

 

 

Or better yet, our record in 1 goal games (46) is 22 wins and 24 losses. Where would we be if we'd got even a point out of half those losses?

[The_People1]

The Flames current position in the standings is exactly where they were predicted to be.

Fans were not expecting zero percent this year, nor were 19,000 season ticket holders. Fans were expecting to see a change in direction, but NOT finishing dead last!

 

We were not talking about winning games per se.  We were talking about winning respect through the way we play.

 

Teams entered the season giving us zero respect but as a result of our hard working attitude, we gained "some" respect.

 

So it would be better to get 0% ?

The only 1s that would expect 0 are those that hope to fail for some reason. If it's college exam it could mean some immature kid is afraid of the real world & would rather keep living on mommy & daddy's dime. In the real world there is responsibility that some find frightening.

 

Translated to position of draft order that would mean a concious decision to have the team play worse. Rest your best players in games you should win, demote players for scoring too much & the like. I doubt we'll see that.

 

As to respect, isn't it better to garner some rather then be a laughing stock?

 

Those are actually a great questions FF.  That's what this entire thread is about.

 

Is it worth it to be a laughing stock but draft #1 overall?  Or is it better to be laughed at a little tiny bit less and draft #5 overall?

 

To me, if we missed the playoffs then we are being laughed at anyways.  Even a little bit is too much.  I don't differentiate.  So, in that regard, i reason that we might as well go big or go home.  Some, like yourself, take the position that it's better to get laughed at a little bit less, like to say it makes missing the playoffs feel better.

 

I disagree because it doesn't make me feel any better.

 

Nashville, Phoenix and the Peg have had less goalie drama than us and are not in year one of a rebuild.  They are not that far ahead of us in the standing.   Except for Winnipeg, would you really want to watch those other 2 teams play 82 game?  Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Those teams do not have respect as much as some of the individuals on them do.  Weber, Rinne, Doan, Big Buff, OEL, Kane, etc.

 

Trotz has respect because he brought his team to the playoff for many years in a row.  He is also in danger of being fired.

 

I would rather watch our team of kids and minor stars make a game of it every night.  If we had stuck with Ramo from the get-go and one or two less injured players, we might have actually been fighting for 8th.  That would have been a bigger letdown for you, because with might have ended up missing the playoff and drafting 14th.

 

Our winning is not causing us problems, it the others below us that refuse to win (Oilers and Florida).  The only time EDM would pick up a win was after we had got one.  Most of the time (lately) that we lost, EDM would also lose.

 

That's like saying the Flames are the most respected team in the NHL if it wasn't for 26 teams ahead of them in the standings that refuse to lose.

[travel_dude]

We were not talking about winning games per se.  We were talking about winning respect through the way we play.

 

Teams entered the season giving us zero respect but as a result of our hard working attitude, we gained "some" respect.

 

 

Those are actually a great questions FF.  That's what this entire thread is about.

 

Is it worth it to be a laughing stock but draft #1 overall?  Or is it better to be laughed at a little tiny bit less and draft #5 overall?

 

To me, if we missed the playoffs then we are being laughed at anyways.  Even a little bit is too much.  I don't differentiate.  So, in that regard, i reason that we might as well go big or go home.  Some, like yourself, take the position that it's better to get laughed at a little bit less, like to say it makes missing the playoffs feel better.

 

I disagree because it doesn't make me feel any better.

 

 

That's like saying the Flames are the most respected team in the NHL if it wasn't for 26 teams ahead of them in the standings that refuse to lose.

What I was talking about was the difference between drafting 4th or 2nd/3rd.  Edmonton wins a game only when we also win one.

EDM loses 3, wins one then loses 3.  Kind of hard to compete with such a competent losing strategy, eh?

[FlamesLogic]

With Calgary pretty much set with the #4 pick regardless of what occurs I think this thread can die

[The_People1]

With Calgary pretty much set with the #4 pick regardless of what occurs I think this thread can die

 

This thread can die when it's no longer possible to move up the draft order by losing... like forever.

 

Or else we'll just see this thread again next year.

[Young_Guns_V2]

I don't think losing on purpose is good, such as throwing a game. But at the same time a part of me doesn't mind them losing because it could help the future of the team. They are not making the playoffs anyways so if they win great if they lose great. But I would rather be in contention for a playoff spot but I know that is not going to happen this year. So I cheer for the teams ahead of the Flames so if the Flames win it wont effect the draft spot. Not something I normally do.

[Carty]

For those of you that cheer for the Flames to lose in order to get a better draft pick, you are wasting your time, efforts and your dreams, because It is this simple...

 

Since the trade deadline, the Flames lead the entire league in goals scored...   and that should tell you something...

 

They (the team you claim to cheer for) don't care jack squat about your fallacies in regards to what you think is best...   They care about what they think is best, and that is playing each and every game to win...   and I am on their side...

[Flyerfan52]

Dang! Another win.

 

Get the ditch the season crowd some tissues.

[Young_Guns_V2]

Like I said I dont "cheer to lose" but I dont mind if they do this season. There is a difference. I may cheer for the teams ahead of them because there is no playoffs so it dont matter. I dont believe in losing on purpose and is not a good ideology. If the Flames win great if not then hey mabye they will get a better player. I dont have the patience of watching year of year of tanking like the Oilers. Look where that got them.

[MAC331]

Im not sure what talent Kelly Hrudy is watching. The Flames unlike the Oilers are rebuilding from the net out and I think they have a great start with Ramos. Our defensive core is good right now and only gets better as Brodie, Russell, Smid and Wotherspoon gain experience. Our bottom two forward lines can be filled with good talent and has a great start if you consider Glencross LW, Stajan C and Hudler RW as your 3rd line. The keys to next season is what they do with the top two lines.

I agree. And I've had that argument about the Islanders too. Florida is only starting to try and turn it around and are knee deep in a rebuild and still have a far way to go. They're just a step ahead of us… 

 

The thing about something you said earlier in some post, maybe this one, is, we're not leaving room for new prospects. The thing is, we didn't have young prospects to leave room for and now we do. So I do expect a lot not being re-signed this year to have those roster spots available for new blood. 

 

I am prepared to cheer for the team, and don't mind if we're bottom feeders for the next year or so. I am not cheering for them to lose so much as I don't have the expectations that we're going to move up very much if anything. 

 

Kelly Hrudey was on the Team1040 today and they asked what his prediction for the next year for the Flames was. He talked about how the talent level is still pretty low on the Flames and if it's not addressed expect the same or worse next year. He also asked how long can this team play at this level before bottoming out. 

 

If we continue to build on our decent drafting over the last few years and add pieces that can play bottom6 on top of getting higher end (hoping they turn out drafting from 4-6 overall), then we could, within the next 4-5 years, see a half decent team. I am not holding my breath hoping they turn it around in the next few years.

 

For me, this is why I like that Baertschi is in the AHL… I would rather him play high minutes, dominate a year or two and then when he can't do anymore/achieve anything new in the AHL, play him on the Flames. It will also continue to nurture winning within him or any of the other prospects who we take our time with.

[Lucid_Flame91]

People are so salty in here, I'm simply cheering for the islanders to win more than the flames at the current moment. 

 

Its not like the team as a whole is throwing in the towel nor will they be allowed too by Hartley n co. so why debate if they will or not. If people are to blind too realize a higher draft pick is by all means better, that's their own ignorance.

 

Cant teach an old dog a new trick.

[FlamesLogic]

Im not sure what talent Kelly Hrudy is watching. The Flames unlike the Oilers are rebuilding from the net out and I think they have a great start with Ramos. Our defensive core is good right now and only gets better as Brodie, Russell, Smid and Wotherspoon gain experience. Our bottom two forward lines can be filled with good talent and has a great start if you consider Glencross LW, Stajan C and Hudler RW as your 3rd line. The keys to next season is what they do with the top two lines.

Glencross Stajan and Hudler is the closest thing we have to a top line right now.