Goaltending

[robrob74]

Conroy said he is happy the Flames are at a place of strength in the position. I think he's going to role with it until it's no longer a place of strength. Basically, Wolf in the minors until Vladar or Markstrom are injured, or play their way to not being good enough anymore. 

[jjgallow]

43 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Conroy said he is happy the Flames are at a place of strength in the position. I think he's going to role with it until it's no longer a place of strength. Basically, Wolf in the minors until Vladar or Markstrom are injured, or play their way to not being good enough anymore. 

 

Conroy's trademark is happy, it's his thing lol.

 

But I also imagine he's smart enough to see goaltending killed us last year and Wolf is not taking the opportunity yet to fill that void.   

 

I always assumed we were rebuilding as soon as I saw Conroy give this current situation the nod.     But the most important piece of that rebuild would be Wolf, and unless he is absolutely removing all doubts it eould be good to have another tip prospect in that position.   If they both turn out that would be just fine

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I guess the big problem is nobody will take his salary.

Markstrom has a full no movement clause. Plus Conroy has never indicated that he has any plan to move him, but expects him to bounce back.

[jjgallow]

22 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Markstrom has a full no movement clause. Plus Conroy has never indicated that he has any plan to move him, but expects him to bounce back.

 

 Like  no lateral movement?

 

It worked

 

Hey but if he leads us to the promised land I will change my username to Markstrom_Fan

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, oldschoolplayer said:

That admin threw 8 mil$ out the windiw when they crucified Sutter. What's the big problem moving a hot cold Jacob? Wolf is ready to do back flips. I'm going to start following the Jets. Following the flames is oldschool😏 

 

Are you going to post this on every thread?  We get the point.

[conundrumed]

20 hours ago, oldschoolplayer said:

That admin threw 8 mil$ out the windiw when they crucified Sutter. What's the big problem moving a hot cold Jacob? Wolf is ready to do back flips. I'm going to start following the Jets. Following the flames is oldschool😏 

Markstrom has a no movement clause. He's not being traded. It was never an option and Conroy has never implied that Markstrom is going anywhere.

So maybe (hopefully) for the last time, are we ready to stop blaming Markstrom for absolutely everything.

The easy-out and lowest common denominator is "blame the goalie".

He wasn't even responsible for the Edmonton playoff loss. Go back and watch the coach and the rest of the team in full-on panic mode.

We need to focus on defending against teams that can crank up the pace. Because if we can't improve on that, it does not matter at all who is in net.

Constant odd-man rushes kills this team.

1. Stop being so liberal defending the O blue line.

2. Stop with 4 guys constantly racing N. A simple turnover and you're all going the wrong way.

3. Stop holding the effing puck in the O zone. The Van game proved it to you, but old habits die hard I guess.

Those 3 things are constantly on repeat. The same mistakes over and over. So many young high-end Dmen now just thriving on 4 opponents leaning north. The puck's going the other way in tenths of a second.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Markstrom has a no movement clause. He's not being traded. It was never an option and Conroy has never implied that Markstrom is going anywhere.

So maybe (hopefully) for the last time, are we ready to stop blaming Markstrom for absolutely everything.

The easy-out and lowest common denominator is "blame the goalie".

He wasn't even responsible for the Edmonton playoff loss. Go back and watch the coach and the rest of the team in full-on panic mode.

We need to focus on defending against teams that can crank up the pace. Because if we can't improve on that, it does not matter at all who is in net.

Constant odd-man rushes kills this team.

1. Stop being so liberal defending the O blue line.

2. Stop with 4 guys constantly racing N. A simple turnover and you're all going the wrong way.

3. Stop holding the effing puck in the O zone. The Van game proved it to you, but old habits die hard I guess.

Those 3 things are constantly on repeat. The same mistakes over and over. So many young high-end Dmen now just thriving on 4 opponents leaning north. The puck's going the other way in tenths of a second.

 

I think blame the coach is in a tie with blame the goalie for lowest common denominator. 

 

The Sutter-Babcock comparisons are a bit much. 

 

If history is any indicator, fans are just getting warmed up for blame the goalie.    Expect next level roasting this year.

 

I agree that our situation runs deeper than the goalie.   But it also runs deeper than the coach, and a lot of the players.

 

Some think it runs deeper than the gm.   Jury is out.

 

Imho trying to stop the goalie blame train this year will be like trying to stop the coach blame train last year.   Good luck.

 

My only point when I bumped this is that we could really use more prospect depth here.    Which was met with indifference like it is most years.    Wasn't even a negative comment, I just want us to have a strong foundation is all.

 

But you've wandered off into the attitude debate.   People gonna talk about how stupid that contract was.  Because...it was stupid.   Of course most of that talk happens in the final years on that term.

 

Why not admit "yeah bad contract" instead of these endless attitude debates and be like "we could fix this by investing in prospects and development ".

 

Who even cares how Markstrom does?  Why are you focusing the convo on the most negative possible thing?  You can't argue that contract into a good one.   A comeback is a blue moon event.   Vladar is interesting in a good way.   Wolf is interesting in a great way.    More top prospects here would be Really interesting and positive.

 

You want positivity.   I start off with it but you don't see it so you can't steer it.

[jjgallow]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:05 AM, oldschoolplayer said:

That admin threw 8 mil$ out the windiw when they crucified Sutter. What's the big problem moving a hot cold Jacob? Wolf is ready to do back flips. I'm going to start following the Jets. Following the flames is oldschool😏 

 

A lot of people really struggle with honesty in sports.

 

When you say "start following the jets", obviously you will illicit a negative response in here.   The funny thing is most of the people responding are doing the same thing, at least you're staying in Canada.

 

$8m was thrown out the window,  everyone knew it then, everyone knows it now.   Funny that stating an obvious truth would lead anyone to need to expand on a counter argument.  Sutter was crucified.   It won't solve anything here.   Everyone on these boards thinks they would coach much better.   All the Usual stuff heading into a rebuild.

 

Here is what I will say though, we haven't sold any draft picks or signed any awful contracts since Conroy got here.   He does deserve a chance at long as he steers clear of that

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

A lot of people really struggle with honesty in sports.

 

When you say "start following the jets", obviously you will illicit a negative response in here.   The funny thing is most of the people responding are doing the same thing, at least you're staying in Canada.

 

$8m was thrown out the window,  everyone knew it then, everyone knows it now.   Funny that stating an obvious truth would lead anyone to need to expand on a counter argument.  Sutter was crucified.   It won't solve anything here.   Everyone on these boards thinks they would coach much better.   All the Usual stuff heading into a rebuild.

 

Here is what I will say though, we haven't sold any draft picks or signed any awful contracts since Conroy got here.   He does deserve a chance at long as he steers clear of that

 

the thing is, he is hamstringed being so tight against the cap. It'll be when he has the space to use cap, how does he use it, will be the question.

[jjgallow]

25 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

the thing is, he is hamstringed being so tight against the cap. It'll be when he has the space to use cap, how does he use it, will be the question.

 

Yup and ideally, he doesn't.   Get those prospects going,  make it a pipeline.     ELCs.   Callups that succeed.

 

Why not two ELC goalies  and two more good ones in the AHL

 

The goal is more than building a contender.

 

Build a contender with some cap space left over and that's where things get interesting 

[robrob74]

15 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yup and ideally, he doesn't.   Get those prospects going,  make it a pipeline.     ELCs.   Callups that succeed.

 

Why not two ELC goalies  and two more good ones in the AHL

 

The goal is more than building a contender.

 

Build a contender with some cap space left over and that's where things get interesting 

 

it would be interesting to do a comparison of teams and playoffs in relation to the flames, how many rounds teams make in the way they built their teams. Which way gets an owner more rounds of playoffs in given time. 
 

 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yup and ideally, he doesn't.   Get those prospects going,  make it a pipeline.     ELCs.   Callups that succeed.

 

Why not two ELC goalies  and two more good ones in the AHL

 

The goal is more than building a contender.

 

Build a contender with some cap space left over and that's where things get interesting 

 

Sounds like a plan, but teams that do this also have a short to mid term plan.  Like building a contender along the way, so that IF the ELC's tuen into anything, then you have built the team ready for them.  IF they turn into just lousy goalies, then you haven't wasted the years and have nothing to shorw for it.

[jjgallow]

50 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sounds like a plan, but teams that do this also have a short to mid term plan.  Like building a contender along the way, so that IF the ELC's tuen into anything, then you have built the team ready for them.  IF they turn into just lousy goalies, then you haven't wasted the years and have nothing to shorw for it.

 

I dunno.    Not sure if I wanna dick around with a mediocrity backup plan.    Would rather just have a long term plan.

 

But

 

I do agree that there is more involved than acquiring a prospect.   It probably starts with goalie coaches and goalie scouts.

[robrob74]

17 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I dunno.    Not sure if I wanna dick around with a mediocrity backup plan.    Would rather just have a long term plan.

 

But

 

I do agree that there is more involved than acquiring a prospect.   It probably starts with goalie coaches and goalie scouts.

the thing that I think has been a difference is They have Sigelat in a different role. He doesn't seem to coach directly but more of an advisor? Maybe I'm misunderstanding his role. He seems like he is doing more goalie analysis than coaching and on the scouting side. Being able to see talent is different than developing and coaching it. Hoping the Flames have figured that out. 

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

the thing that I think has been a difference is They have Sigelat in a different role. He doesn't seem to coach directly but more of an advisor? Maybe I'm misunderstanding his role. He seems like he is doing more goalie analysis than coaching and on the scouting side. Being able to see talent is different than developing and coaching it. Hoping the Flames have figured that out. 

 

huh.  didn't know.  No question about it, he's a great guy.   Would be amazing if they could find the right fit.

[conundrumed]

I blame Sean Burke for goalie coaches being glorified. Specifically Devan Dubnyk. He only needed ritalin.lol

"Calm tf down. Stay square, play your angles, know where the crease is. Calm tf down Hasek".

Works every time.

Luongo was the worst for a goalie making life hard on himself. Dude was full-on panic, like, a lot. Lost his crease regularly in sheer panic mode.

Coaching can only try to make you stop playing with high anxiety. They can't control it, that's on you.

They say goalies are a weird breed, but really, they are under the most pressure. You can't coach away how an individual deals with that. Let them be smokers.lol Call the smoke shack the goalie room. Maybe have some hallucinogenic mushrooms hanging around for emergencies.

"This guy has great ideas" - nobody.

[robrob74]

25 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I blame Sean Burke for goalie coaches being glorified. Specifically Devan Dubnyk. He only needed ritalin.lol

"Calm tf down. Stay square, play your angles, know where the crease is. Calm tf down Hasek".

Works every time.

Luongo was the worst for a goalie making life hard on himself. Dude was full-on panic, like, a lot. Lost his crease regularly in sheer panic mode.

Coaching can only try to make you stop playing with high anxiety. They can't control it, that's on you.

They say goalies are a weird breed, but really, they are under the most pressure. You can't coach away how an individual deals with that. Let them be smokers.lol Call the smoke shack the goalie room. Maybe have some hallucinogenic mushrooms hanging around for emergencies.

"This guy has great ideas" - nobody.

only time I think it's bad is when they coach away what works. Maybe that is the goalie playing himself away from his own game? And we think it's coaches?

[conundrumed]

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

only time I think it's bad is when they coach away what works. Maybe that is the goalie playing himself away from his own game? And we think it's coaches?

Coaching doesn't adjust goalies in my experience. The guys that I schooled with would just argue. To the point of, "why don't you strap 'em on and show me then"? We did a lot of push-ups.lol

I have a hard time believing that a goalie even bordering the NHL level is getting pushed over by a coach to change how he goes about it. They can show you why you need work on specifics, but they sure as Blockchain can't tell you to change how you play. Markstrom still does the double-stack, and I can near guarantee you everyone has been telling him not to since Bantam. *source: I loved that move.

Markstrom's timing has been off is about all that I can see. He's just a bit off in being squared up. It shows in his body language. Puck's are passing him where they normally wouldn't.

He's opening up too much when he moves. I'd have 2 guys pass back-and-forth in front of him. Honestly, you don't even have to shoot. Just stop and say, right there man, your arm's coming away from your body. Or, right there in the corner, you're not square.

Markstrom is a great goalie imho. Every little mistake becomes a mounting problem it seems like. He really doesn't need much adjusting, maybe just reminders. He can give up 3 goals he wants back while making 6 saves that he had no business stopping. When he puts it all together, dude is a frigging sensational goalie.

We sure lose sight of 2 years ago. "Oh woe is me, JG and Chucky are leaving, what's ever to become of us"? Well, your goalie kicked the Satoshi Nakamoto out of everything that year. He lost the Oilers series, because he was your best player all year. Without Markstrom 2 years ago, was this really a very good team? He won half the Blockchaining games. Now he's treated like dirt by fans.

You reap what you sow.

I'd take him on my team anyday. Markstrom for Husso? Done. Blockchaining rights. Both are great goalies, Markstrom can be an elite goalie when he's got it going on, as good as anyone. He did that 2 years ago. But no one seems to give a Satoshi Nakamoto. So whatever, I guess.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Coaching doesn't adjust goalies in my experience. The guys that I schooled with would just argue. To the point of, "why don't you strap 'em on and show me then"? We did a lot of push-ups.lol

I have a hard time believing that a goalie even bordering the NHL level is getting pushed over by a coach to change how he goes about it. They can show you why you need work on specifics, but they sure as Blockchain can't tell you to change how you play. Markstrom still does the double-stack, and I can near guarantee you everyone has been telling him not to since Bantam. *source: I loved that move.

Markstrom's timing has been off is about all that I can see. He's just a bit off in being squared up. It shows in his body language. Puck's are passing him where they normally wouldn't.

He's opening up too much when he moves. I'd have 2 guys pass back-and-forth in front of him. Honestly, you don't even have to shoot. Just stop and say, right there man, your arm's coming away from your body. Or, right there in the corner, you're not square.

Markstrom is a great goalie imho. Every little mistake becomes a mounting problem it seems like. He really doesn't need much adjusting, maybe just reminders. He can give up 3 goals he wants back while making 6 saves that he had no business stopping. When he puts it all together, dude is a frigging sensational goalie.

We sure lose sight of 2 years ago. "Oh woe is me, JG and Chucky are leaving, what's ever to become of us"? Well, your goalie kicked the Satoshi Nakamoto out of everything that year. He lost the Oilers series, because he was your best player all year. Without Markstrom 2 years ago, was this really a very good team? He won half the Blockchaining games. Now he's treated like dirt by fans.

You reap what you sow.

I'd take him on my team anyday. Markstrom for Husso? Done. Blockchaining rights. Both are great goalies, Markstrom can be an elite goalie when he's got it going on, as good as anyone. He did that 2 years ago. But no one seems to give a Satoshi Nakamoto. So whatever, I guess.

 

Where I found that "perhaps" the goalie coach had a negative impact was in re-enforcing the idea that a goalie needs to start the play every time he gets it.  The puck handling behind the net burned us in the Oilers series and it's quite frustrating to watch.  It messes up the D play.  Smith was the master of trying to be the play starter and it burned us and them when he was on these two teams. 

 

I have no issue with Markstrom as long as his starts are managed.  We had the opposite last season where he was the default no matter how he was trending.  Blame it on the coach and a weak goalie coach maybe.  Vladar wasn't exactly a stud last season, but he sure was managed poorly.  

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Coaching doesn't adjust goalies in my experience. The guys that I schooled with would just argue. To the point of, "why don't you strap 'em on and show me then"? We did a lot of push-ups.lol

I have a hard time believing that a goalie even bordering the NHL level is getting pushed over by a coach to change how he goes about it. They can show you why you need work on specifics, but they sure as Blockchain can't tell you to change how you play. Markstrom still does the double-stack, and I can near guarantee you everyone has been telling him not to since Bantam. *source: I loved that move.

Markstrom's timing has been off is about all that I can see. He's just a bit off in being squared up. It shows in his body language. Puck's are passing him where they normally wouldn't.

He's opening up too much when he moves. I'd have 2 guys pass back-and-forth in front of him. Honestly, you don't even have to shoot. Just stop and say, right there man, your arm's coming away from your body. Or, right there in the corner, you're not square.

Markstrom is a great goalie imho. Every little mistake becomes a mounting problem it seems like. He really doesn't need much adjusting, maybe just reminders. He can give up 3 goals he wants back while making 6 saves that he had no business stopping. When he puts it all together, dude is a frigging sensational goalie.

We sure lose sight of 2 years ago. "Oh woe is me, JG and Chucky are leaving, what's ever to become of us"? Well, your goalie kicked the Satoshi Nakamoto out of everything that year. He lost the Oilers series, because he was your best player all year. Without Markstrom 2 years ago, was this really a very good team? He won half the Blockchaining games. Now he's treated like dirt by fans.

You reap what you sow.

I'd take him on my team anyday. Markstrom for Husso? Done. Blockchaining rights. Both are great goalies, Markstrom can be an elite goalie when he's got it going on, as good as anyone. He did that 2 years ago. But no one seems to give a Satoshi Nakamoto. So whatever, I guess.

 

"Was" a great goalie but time does a number to everyone.  Markstrom is 33 and turning 34 in Jan.  It is what it is.  He's getting too old, even for goalies.  There's no going back to the time when his reflexes and agility was in prime.  He's not alright.

 

If we can cut his cap loose then we should.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

"Was" a great goalie but time does a number to everyone.  Markstrom is 33 and turning 34 in Jan.  It is what it is.  He's getting too old, even for goalies.  There's no going back to the time when his reflexes and agility was in prime.  He's not alright.

 

If we can cut his cap loose then we should.

 

Thank you 

[conundrumed]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

If we can cut his cap loose then we should.

If we could we would? This is where the unending "trade him" talk gets tiresome so I'll just cheer him and hope for the best.

He isn't going anywhere no matter how much bickering happens so no point wallowing in it.

[sak22]

I don't really get the age worry as much.  Roy, Hasek, Luongo, Brodeur, Thomas, Lundqvist, Fleury have all shown to age well and most had a stinker of a season along the way.  It's easy to point at a guy like Rask who retired mid 30's and Quick who has been in a steady decline as age related examples but both those guys had injuries derail them.  Besides injuries confidence is the 2nd biggest factor to derailing goalies careers, I don't know if I ever thought last year during Markstrom's struggles that his age was a factor, like he was letting in shots that a 27 year old Markstrom wouldn't have.  But there is a worry about confidence but that can apply to a goalie of any age as I've seen many good younger goalies lose it.  

[jjgallow]

My point here was more around Wolf.  Seems we all agree it's a more interesting discussion but struggling to avoid the rest.

 

Especially when Wolf gets dent down it's hard not to bring up JM.     But

 

 

I can make it worse 

 

Cause imho this is the surest thing we've had since Ortio.  Replace that with Gilies if you please.

 

I think we should be cheering on Wolf going forward.  And any other prospect who steps up.    Even if it's a losing battle lol. 

 

Wolf did not show up yet.  But also has not been given enough of a chance to make a decision like that 

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

My point here was more around Wolf.  Seems we all agree it's a more interesting discussion but struggling to avoid the rest.

 

Especially when Wolf gets dent down it's hard not to bring up JM.     But

 

 

I can make it worse 

 

Cause imho this is the surest thing we've had since Ortio.  Replace that with Gilies if you please.

 

I think we should be cheering on Wolf going forward.  And any other prospect who steps up.    Even if it's a losing battle lol. 

 

Wolf did not show up yet.  But also has not been given enough of a chance to make a decision like that 

 

That's kinda the point.  If Wolf had been flawless in his NHL debut and his lone start in pre-season, then the team might be approaching the season differently.  It's not like we have an all star like Hiller and a backup as good as Rittich.