Goaltending

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

he's not eligible for the CHL as he was never drafted, as you suggest. 

 

USHL would be an option I believe. 

 

So, FN did a piece about it:

 

So where can he play?

• Chechelev is a 2001-born goalie, so he’s age eligible for Canadian major junior. But he’s both an import and an over-ager – a “two-spotter” in CHL parlance – and since he wasn’t selected in the CHL’s Import Draft he wouldn’t be eligible to play in the three Canadian leagues.
• He was drafted into the USHL by the Sioux City Musketeers, so he’s eligible to play in the USHL. The USHL also has broader import rules – they have a limit of four imports and four 20-year-olds per team – so that could be a possibility. But again, USHL teams are primarily developmental vehicles for college-bound players and somebody who’s not NCAA eligible given his Russian pro experience may not be an easy sell for a USHL team.
• Finally, Chechelev could just sign an AHL deal with Stockton and play with the Heat or ECHL’s Kansas City Mavericks. But if you’re following along, you might notice that the Flames have a zillion goalies in their pro system right now: Jacob Markstrom and Dan Vladar in Calgary, some combination of Dustin Wolf, Tyler Parsons and Adam Werner in Stockton, and some combination of Andrew Shortridge and Matt Greenfield in Kansas City. That’s already seven guys for six spots, and cramming in an eighth goalie (who’s Russian and likely speaks very limited English) may be a challenge.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

It's what I was complaining about.  I have no issue with bringing back players, but it seems a bit crowded.  I guess we can loan them out to other teams, but what is the point of that?  Chechelev is one I am interested to see how he translates to the NA game.  He went 12 games in a row undefeated to start last year, but it was a lesser league.

 

Hey man I said it was crowded when they made the acquisitions and you fought me on it lol.

 

Anyway, I'm with you on this now.  

 

I mean....it can work.  It can be made to work.   But the trust is not there (for me anyway).  

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, FN did a piece about it:

 

So where can he play?

• Chechelev is a 2001-born goalie, so he’s age eligible for Canadian major junior. But he’s both an import and an over-ager – a “two-spotter” in CHL parlance – and since he wasn’t selected in the CHL’s Import Draft he wouldn’t be eligible to play in the three Canadian leagues.
• He was drafted into the USHL by the Sioux City Musketeers, so he’s eligible to play in the USHL. The USHL also has broader import rules – they have a limit of four imports and four 20-year-olds per team – so that could be a possibility. But again, USHL teams are primarily developmental vehicles for college-bound players and somebody who’s not NCAA eligible given his Russian pro experience may not be an easy sell for a USHL team.
• Finally, Chechelev could just sign an AHL deal with Stockton and play with the Heat or ECHL’s Kansas City Mavericks. But if you’re following along, you might notice that the Flames have a zillion goalies in their pro system right now: Jacob Markstrom and Dan Vladar in Calgary, some combination of Dustin Wolf, Tyler Parsons and Adam Werner in Stockton, and some combination of Andrew Shortridge and Matt Greenfield in Kansas City. That’s already seven guys for six spots, and cramming in an eighth goalie (who’s Russian and likely speaks very limited English) may be a challenge.

 

I must admit I've wanted a goalie pipeline.

 

But I'm not sure adding excessive ECHL depth counts as that.

 

Vladar, Wolf, these we can call pipeline players.  Outside chance of Werner, and their pick from last year (in junior).

 

Outside of that, we're talking about guys who have extreme outside chances of really being part of the pipeline.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I must admit I've wanted a goalie pipeline.

 

But I'm not sure adding excessive ECHL depth counts as that.

 

Vladar, Wolf, these we can call pipeline players.  Outside chance of Werner, and their pick from last year (in junior).

 

Outside of that, we're talking about guys who have extreme outside chances of really being part of the pipeline.

 

Well, according to some Werner and Vladdy are pretty close in terms of being viable.

Parsons has to get over what was an issue (not making light of his struggles) before and show what he is capable of.

I doubt he gets the chance at NHL as a 3rd goalie.

Of all the pipeline guys, there are really only 2 guys (Werner and Parsons) that should be in the NHL this year in worst case.

Don't think it would be right to use Wolf even in dire cases.

 

So, if they saw something in Parsons in camp, and it didn't really hurt them to have three goalies, then it might make sense.

I'm still undecided about Parsons.

He's never shown that he can elevate his game.

He's never shown consistency.

Would it make sense to stick him in the ECHL and forget about him?

Or work with him at the pro level with our best coach.

He needs a reset of some sort.

Don't know what they feel about him, whether they want to invest anything in the "kid".

 

[jjgallow]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, according to some Werner and Vladdy are pretty close in terms of being viable.

Parsons has to get over what was an issue (not making light of his struggles) before and show what he is capable of.

I doubt he gets the chance at NHL as a 3rd goalie.

Of all the pipeline guys, there are really only 2 guys (Werner and Parsons) that should be in the NHL this year in worst case.

Don't think it would be right to use Wolf even in dire cases.

 

So, if they saw something in Parsons in camp, and it didn't really hurt them to have three goalies, then it might make sense.

I'm still undecided about Parsons.

He's never shown that he can elevate his game.

He's never shown consistency.

Would it make sense to stick him in the ECHL and forget about him?

Or work with him at the pro level with our best coach.

He needs a reset of some sort.

Don't know what they feel about him, whether they want to invest anything in the "kid".

 

 

Normally I would argue that the ECHL is not a dead end.

 

But if you have 4 goalies on one ECHL team, that's..rough.

[conundrumed]

20 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

he's not eligible for the CHL as he was never drafted, as you suggest. 

 

USHL would be an option I believe. 

Tri-City could stockpile all of our Russian prospects!:)

USHL is a fantastic jr league.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Tri-City could stockpile all of our Russian prospects!:)

USHL is a fantastic jr league.

 

You mean with Nikolayev going there?

USHL might be a great place for him to work on his game.

 

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You mean with Nikolayev going there?

USHL might be a great place for him to work on his game.

 

And Arsenii Sergeyev.

[travel_dude]

35 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

And Arsenii Sergeyev.

 

I thought he was committed to U of Con.

 

[conundrumed]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I thought he was committed to U of Con.

 

Sorry, I wasn't positive if that was for this year.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Sorry, I wasn't positive if that was for this year.

 

I should have said "listed".  I don't know for a fact he was committed.

Regardless, I think coming to NA and playing in the USHL is not a bad thing for a player.

Good place to start here.

[bosn111]

Chechelev signed AHL contract with Stockton. Adds more intrigue to the depth and who plays where.

[kehatch]

40 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

Chechelev signed AHL contract with Stockton. Adds more intrigue to the depth and who plays where.

 

It does for sure, but the simple answer is probably a loan out to another NHL club. I also won't be surprise to see the Flames move Parsons to give him an opportunity somewhere else. 

[conundrumed]

Now both of my teams, Flames and Wings, have an abundance of goalies in the system. I kinda love that.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Now both of my teams, Flames and Wings, have an abundance of goalies in the system. I kinda love that.

 

And we have a camp invite, a guy passed over in the draft.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

And we have a camp invite, a guy passed over in the draft.

I’m hoping for one big dogfight for playing time.

[zima]

I don't know why they bother Wolf is going to take over top spot and we will trade Markstrom  or use Marks as the backup but for his wage we will trade him  . Ok I can dream no law against it

 

[jjgallow]

19 hours ago, zima said:

I don't know why they bother Wolf is going to take over top spot and we will trade Markstrom  or use Marks as the backup but for his wage we will trade him  . Ok I can dream no law against it

 

Yup, none of us know why, the number of lower-tier acquisitions is mind boggling and we are just in various states of trying to support/defend/question it.

 

If the Flames were known for their goalie scouting we'd all be really excited right now.

 

Wolf still is a dream, and at his size he will remain a dream, but they do sometimes come true and he absolutely ranks with the very best goalies of his age group in terms of elite skill.   If he was 4 inches taller he would have gone in the first round and already been offered NHL minutes.  It is enough skill that despite his size, you would Think that all of our development resources at the AHL level would be getting invested in him right now.    Even a 25% chance of him making the transition is more than enough to warrant that imho.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yup, none of us know why, the number of lower-tier acquisitions is mind boggling and we are just in various states of trying to support/defend/question it.

 

If the Flames were known for their goalie scouting we'd all be really excited right now.

 

Wolf still is a dream, and at his size he will remain a dream, but they do sometimes come true and he absolutely ranks with the very best goalies of his age group in terms of elite skill.   If he was 4 inches taller he would have gone in the first round and already been offered NHL minutes.  It is enough skill that despite his size, you would Think that all of our development resources at the AHL level would be getting invested in him right now.    Even a 25% chance of him making the transition is more than enough to warrant that imho.

You don't just anoint Wolf as our guy. That would be an egregious error.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

You don't just anoint Wolf as our guy. That would be an egregious error.

 

Which is why I advocated heavily for Askarov, Wallstedt, Cossa.

 

I'll tell you right now the same thing I said about Rittich when we acquired him.   People didn't like it but it was true.

 

None of the other players in the Flames system who may play in the AHL/ECHL this season will ever be NHL starters.

 

Vladar, has a chance.   Sergeev, has a chance.   But they won't be in the AHL this season.

 

 

Some of the vast numbers of goalies the Flames suddenly acquired for the AHL this season may toy with our emotions, may give us temporary false hope, as Rittich did.    If any of them do, all that will accomplish is snuff out any possibility for Wolf to develop into an NHL goaltender.  They all have 2-4 years on Wolf and Should be better than him (but likely aren't).   We've shown in the past that we will snuff out development of the younger more promising prospect if we think we've just discovered the next 26 year old Kipper (which happens successfully about once every 20 years).

 

With any luck, they are all either an ECHL success, AHL loaners, or AHL failures and we can see what we really have in Wolf.

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Which is why I advocated heavily for Askarov, Wallstedt, Cossa.

 

I'll tell you right now the same thing I said about Rittich when we acquired him.   People didn't like it but it was true.

 

None of the other players in the Flames system who may play in the AHL this season will ever be NHL starters.

 

Vladar, has a chance.   Sergeev, has a chance.   But they won't be in the AHL this season.

 

 

Some of the vast numbers of goalies the Flames suddenly acquired for the AHL this season may toy with our emotions, may give us temporary false hope, as Rittich did.    If any of them do, all that will accomplish is snuff out any possibility for Wolf to develop into an NHL goaltender.

 

With any luck, they are all either an ECHL success, AHL loaners, or AHL failures and we can see what we really have in Wolf.

Rittich gave us false hope? He's an NHL goalie from nothing. Do you expect every goalie to be Vasilevsky, Price or Fleury before deeming them a success?lol

[jjgallow]

14 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Rittich gave us false hope? He's an NHL goalie from nothing. Do you expect every goalie to be Vasilevsky, Price or Fleury before deeming them a success?lol

 

He is a 30 year old NHL backup at very best on a league minimum two way contract as he drifts from team to team and his skills diminish.

 

We completely clogged up our development pipeline for two years for him, preventing Gillies, Parsons, from having a chance and for that matter preventing us from acquiring a legitimate prospect and developing them which is what we should have done.  It cost us two prospects that had value at the time, whatever you think of them now, and prevented us from getting the right prospect.

 

We appear to be doing the same with Wolf.   Forcing him to win the job from guys who have 2-4 years on him.   This isn't good asset management, sorry.  This isn't hedging our bet.   It is impatience.

 

And yes.  It's the most important position in the game, we need legitimate prospects.    Sometimes you get what you pay for.  There's a reason all these goalies we're acquiring are both free and too old to actually be prospects.

 

If the position was Center and we were loading the AHL up with older drifters, taking minutes away from Zary/Pelletier, people would be furious.

 

We think that's ok in net, we think that's ok on defence.   That's why we're in for a really rough ride.

[conundrumed]

31 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

He is a 30 year old NHL backup at very best on a league minimum two way contract as he drifts from team to team and his skills diminish.

 

We completely clogged up our development pipeline for two years for him, preventing Gillies, Parsons, from having a chance and for that matter preventing us from acquiring a legitimate prospect and developing them which is what we should have done.  It cost us two prospects that had value at the time, whatever you think of them now, and prevented us from getting the right prospect.

 

We appear to be doing the same with Wolf.   Forcing him to win the job from guys who have 2-4 years on him.   This isn't good asset management, sorry.  This isn't hedging our bet.   It is impatience.

 

And yes.  It's the most important position in the game, we need legitimate prospects.    Sometimes you get what you pay for.  There's a reason all these goalies we're acquiring are both free and too old to actually be prospects.

 

If the position was Center and we were loading the AHL up with older drifters, taking minutes away from Zary/Pelletier, people would be furious.

 

We think that's ok in net, we think that's ok on defence.   That's why we're in for a really rough ride.

lol He's the Preds backup for Saros. Not a 2 way league min. How do you come up with this crap? Prevented Gillies/Parsons?? Maybe because they weren't good enough and still aren't. Stop pretending every drafted goalie that doesn't work out is due to the NHL team's development. It's because only 64 goalies can be in the NHL. Thems slim pickens.

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

lol He's the Preds backup for Saros. Not a 2 way league min. How do you come up with this crap? Prevented Gillies/Parsons?? Maybe because they weren't good enough and still aren't. Stop pretending every drafted goalie that doesn't work out is due to the NHL team's development. It's because only 64 goalies can be in the NHL. Thems slim pickens.

 

He is the backup's backup's backup.  You are forgetting the player I just mentioned that we should have acquired.   He is just plugging a hole for them until Askarov comes off of KHL contract, and until Ingram returns healthy (which is imminent).   If we had this conversation a few weeks ago we'd be talking about Toronto, who freely and happily let him go (and they're not exactly a goaltending juggernout).   If we have this conversation about him next year we'll probably be talking about an AHL team.

 

I realize there is a love for Rittich here and I mean no personal malice towards him.   Just, as prospects go, he sucks.  sorry.

 

You can't have it both ways.   You want to instill all this hope in these random free over-aged drifters we acquired.   But you want to dispel any notion of value to any of our top goaltending prospects.       The odds are bad for top prospects, you're right.    They're aweful/non-existent for the rest.

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

He is the backup's backup's backup.  You are forgetting the player I just mentioned that we should have acquired.   He is just plugging a hole for them until Askarov comes off of KHL contract, and until Ingram returns healthy (which is imminent).   If we had this conversation a few weeks ago we'd be talking about Toronto, who freely and happily let him go (and they're not exactly a goaltending juggernout).   If we have this conversation about him next year we'll probably be talking about an AHL team.

 

I realize there is a love for Rittich here and I mean no personal malice towards him.   Just, as prospects go, he sucks.  sorry.

 

You can't have it both ways.   You want to instill all this hope in these random free over-aged drifters we acquired.   But you want to dispel any notion of value to any of our top goaltending prospects.       The odds are bad for top prospects, you're right.    They're aweful/non-existent for the rest.

What's Gillies doing now? How about Joni Ortio?lol