Goaltending

[conundrumed]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

In terms of readiness, yes.   And I agree that it was a weak draft for forwards, which is why it got brought up here (it wasn't a weak draft for goalies).

 

So I'm not going to go out of my way to stand up for Coronato when there were better choices to make.    On the other hand, your own description of Pelletier's ceiling is someone who is quite readily available anytime for a third rounder or less (depending on contract).     And we're comparing that to a recent first rounder, weak draft or not, so I still have to go with:    Wallstedt > Coronato > Francis >  Pelletier/Zary.

Are you on the whiskey again?lol

[travel_dude]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

In terms of readiness, yes.   And I agree that it was a weak draft for forwards, which is why it got brought up here (it wasn't a weak draft for goalies).

 

So I'm not going to go out of my way to stand up for Coronato when there were better choices to make.    On the other hand, your own description of Pelletier's ceiling is someone who is quite readily available anytime for a third rounder or less (depending on contract).     And we're comparing that to a recent first rounder, weak draft or not, so I still have to go with:    Wallstedt > Coronato > Francis >  Pelletier/Zary.

 

Le sigh.

You constantly hold up a sign stating we have the worst goalie development.

Yet, you state we made the wrong choice by letting Wallstedt and Cossa drop.

I get that you don't like us drafting LHS LW. 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Are you on the whiskey again?lol

Which part, Wallstedt?

 

100% of us would have agreed with that before the draft. 

 

After the draft,  the assumption is that there was a logical reason for the drop.  I thought about it for a long time and I'm simply not making that assumption. Because teams do dumb things on the  regular. 

 

For the rest of it I hit up the Francis thread.   That way I can express it in an optimistic manner.

[jjgallow]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Le sigh.

You constantly hold up a sign stating we have the worst goalie development.

Yet, you state we made the wrong choice by letting Wallstedt and Cossa drop.

I get that you don't like us drafting LHS LW. 

 

Ok that's fair, we would have a big problem once drafting them.

 

But is Wallstedt not going to spend another year overseas?

 

My thinking was, these goalies require the least development.   So without being strong in development,  they make a good fit.

[conundrumed]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Which part, Wallstedt?

This part:

Wallstedt > Coronato > Francis >  Pelletier/Zary.

 

This >means greater than. I think you meant <.lol

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Which part, Wallstedt?

 

100% of us would have agreed with that before the draft. 

 

After the draft,  the assumption is that there was a logical reason for the drop.  I thought about it for a long time and I'm simply not making that assumption. Because teams do dumb things on the  regular. 

 

For the rest of it I hit up the Francis thread.   That way I can express it in an optimistic manner.

 

18 or so scouting staffs and GM know less than you?

I get you have an opinion that he is a great player, but sometimes there are things about a player that don't show up in UTube views.

[jjgallow]

14 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

This part:

Wallstedt > Coronato > Francis >  Pelletier/Zary.

 

This >means greater than. I think you meant <.lol

 

Well I hope it's not controversial, that's just not like me.

 

Pertaining to Wallstedt, this was simply the consensus among every respected scouting agency in NA, until no teams drafted him.

 

Before the draft, is there anybody respectable who would have rated any of these guys above Wallstedt?  No, there wasn't.

 

So how exactly do the draft results all of a sudden make this crazy?   Was Wallstedt injured in the draft?   

I did a bit of research on this.   Wallstedt was a "wall" right up until his last 4 games of the year.  Two of which were tournament games.   Previously, had had very good tournament showings.

 

Four games.   Dropped him 12 spots in the first round.     We're talking about an 18 year old kid having 4 "bad" games in the SHL.   And it wasn't terrible, it was something like a .870 over those 4 games.   All this talk of teams having an inside track is a bunch of Mallarky, the bottom line is that it was a Covid year and it was hard to get scouting and far too much weight got placed on those 4 games.   Despite an unprecedented resume this year alone.

 

BTW, you mentioned that you felt Askarov was sketch when you watched him play.   I feel that if Askarov's style makes you feel sketch, you would have really liked Wallstedt.   Just saying.  

 

Anyway, if the Flames actually knew Wallstedt was no good, and they didn't because they based their decision on these 4 games like a bunch of other teams did...   then they really should have made a move to get Cossa.

 

jmho.

[jjgallow]

45 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

18 or so scouting staffs and GM know less than you?

I get you have an opinion that he is a great player, but sometimes there are things about a player that don't show up in UTube views.

 

Not me, Every single respected scouting agency in NA  (and I think Europe too).   And yes they know more about this than those 12 (not 18)  GMs.  The GMs will tell you that themselves.   This was a panic over a 4 game blip.  Something the Flames in particular are notorious for.

 

One of the most foolish things that can be done in evaluation is basing it on a low-point over a short period of time.    What matters is the levels they can achieve at baseline and at their high points.    You work on the consistency after the draft.  And even then there's not a player in this world that doesn't have 4 game blips.

[travel_dude]

43 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not me, Every single respected scouting agency in NA  (and I think Europe too).   And yes they know more about this than those 12 (not 18)  GMs.  The GMs will tell you that themselves.   This was a panic over a 4 game blip.  Something the Flames in particular are notorious for.

 

Or perhaps there was some things that took place in the season that the "consensus" don't look at.

How a player fits their organization is important, not just pure skill.

[jjgallow]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Or perhaps there was some things that took place in the season that the "consensus" don't look at.

How a player fits their organization is important, not just pure skill.

 

Now we're back to the GMs knowing more than the scouts.  Not buying it, except in some rare cases.  Made me look twice when Yzerman didn't pick him.  But then again that alone explains the drop, a lot of other GMs looked twice at that too.   The thing to remember is they could afford to make that decision with two first rounders, I might have done the same if I knew we could get Cossa.

 

Sure, there are some teams that really don't need a first round goalie.  If you're the Predators, for instance, with Askarov...yeah.    You can see why the trade for Wallstedt happened just under their pick.     

 

But the Flames are not one of those said teams, not even by the longest of long shots.   Maybe some teams can say they didn't have the organizational need.    A very few.   The Flames simply can't say that.

 

 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

Now we're back to the GMs knowing more than the scouts.  Not buying it, except in some rare cases.  Made me look twice when Yzerman didn't pick him.  But then again that alone explains the drop, a lot of other GMs looked twice at that too.   The thing to remember is they could afford to make that decision with two first rounders, I might have done the same if I knew we could get Cossa.

 

Sure, there are some teams that really don't need a first round goalie.  If you're the Predators, for instance, with Askarov...yeah.    You can see why the trade for Wallstedt happened just under their pick.     

 

But the Flames are not one of those said teams, not even by the longest of long shots.   Maybe some teams can say they didn't have the organizational need.    A very few.   The Flames simply can't say that.

 

 

 

No, we are back to GM's and scouts for a team knowing more about their own team than the guys that write scouting reports and services.

Stevie Y didn't pick player X because his scouts told him the best choice.

The GM's don't have a list in their hands and ignore it as soon as their chance comes to pick a player.

 

But anyway, not going to drag this on.  We have two "prospects" in the system and two guys that will be in the NHL.

Plus one other guy battling for a spot and a prospect in Russia.

I will follow those guys progress instead of going on about guys we didn't take.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

No, we are back to GM's and scouts for a team knowing more about their own team than the guys that write scouting reports and services.

Stevie Y didn't pick player X because his scouts told him the best choice.

The GM's don't have a list in their hands and ignore it as soon as their chance comes to pick a player.

 

But anyway, not going to drag this on.  We have two "prospects" in the system and two guys that will be in the NHL.

Plus one other guy battling for a spot and a prospect in Russia.

I will follow those guys progress instead of going on about guys we didn't take.

 

Ok fine lol.  

 

For the record, and in order of value right now:

 

Dustin Wolf    (not big but highly skilled, hopefully our AHL starter

Dan Vladar     (prospect?   he has potential, hopefully will be in the NHL this year and impresses)

Arseni Sergeyev  (Possibly the most/only impressive pick of this year's draft.   Going to US College.  High ceiling.   Worth watching)

                               --has the ability to overtake both Vladar and Wolf as our top prospect in a short period of time
                               --there is something appealing to me about Russians/Europeans who can successfully transition early in their career

Daniil Chechelev   Needs to step up this season.   But I'd still consider him a prospect after a "just ok" year

Tyler Parsons   One last chance.   But sometimes that's all that's needed.

Werner?

[rocketdoctor]

Great piece by Darren Hayes in the Athletic on our goaltending situation.   The Athletic has some of the best hockey content out there.

 

He is suggesting that they might end up with 3 in AHL (or they try to loan one out) as they have 2 on AHL/ECHL contracts already signd up.

 

 

[kehatch]

21 minutes ago, rocketdoctor said:

Great piece by Darren Hayes in the Athletic on our goaltending situation.   The Athletic has some of the best hockey content out there.

 

He is suggesting that they might end up with 3 in AHL (or they try to loan one out) as they have 2 on AHL/ECHL contracts already signd up.

 

 

 

I haven't read the article, but I hope they don't put 3 in the AHL. It doesn't help them win games, and it doesn't help development.  

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I haven't read the article, but I hope they don't put 3 in the AHL. It doesn't help them win games, and it doesn't help development.  

 

I agree though.

I would rather they run 2 in the AHL, and at most rotate one guy to and from the ECHL to get additional playing time.

 

I noticed that the Russian goalie isn't signed to a team yet.

He could come to NA .

I hope they continue his development outside the NA system.

Too crowded too early.

 

[travel_dude]

So, I see where CGY signed two more goalies to AHL deals, which means they will go to the AHL.

And now Chechelev is coming to North America.

Not enough room for the 3 goalies we have (Parsons, Wolf and Werner) + the two AHL guys + the yet unsigned Russian to play.

[cross16]

From his agent. Be interesting to see where he winds up

 

 

[jjgallow]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:47 AM, travel_dude said:

 

I agree though.

I would rather they run 2 in the AHL, and at most rotate one guy to and from the ECHL to get additional playing time.

 

I noticed that the Russian goalie isn't signed to a team yet.

He could come to NA .

I hope they continue his development outside the NA system.

Too crowded too early.

 

 

Agreed

 

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

So, I see where CGY signed two more goalies to AHL deals, which means they will go to the AHL.

And now Chechelev is coming to North America.

Not enough room for the 3 goalies we have (Parsons, Wolf and Werner) + the two AHL guys + the yet unsigned Russian to play.

 

Agreed again.

 

 

Don't worry, they have a plan.     

 

Cough.

 

Kind of thinking here, just looking at how they've done this, Parsons and Chechelev may battle it out in the ECHL.   It's better to have more goalies than less, that I don't mind.   Trying to be positive here.

[conundrumed]

Vladar : NHL backup

Werner-Wolf: AHL

Parsons-Chechelev: ECHL

No Problem.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Vladar : NHL backup

Werner-Wolf: AHL

Parsons-Chechelev: ECHL

No Problem.

 

And what about the fact that Stockton Heat signed Andrew Shortridge and Matt Greenfield to two-way AHL/ECHL contracts?

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

And what about the fact that Stockton Heat signed Andrew Shortridge and Matt Greenfield to two-way AHL/ECHL contracts?

Ahh didn't see that news. Looks like we'll have some loaners...

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Ahh didn't see that news. Looks like we'll have some loaners...

 

It's what I was complaining about.  I have no issue with bringing back players, but it seems a bit crowded.  I guess we can loan them out to other teams, but what is the point of that?  Chechelev is one I am interested to see how he translates to the NA game.  He went 12 games in a row undefeated to start last year, but it was a lesser league.

[cross16]

Chechelev doesn't necessarily have to play pro and I think it's likely that both the AHL and ECHL teams would carry 3 goalies. While I understand the development argument and agree with it, should be pointed out that the schedule in those leagues are a nightmare. 3 games in 3 days is commons, 5 games in 6/7 games is common so carrying extra goalies is really not an issue. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Chechelev doesn't necessarily have to play pro and I think it's likely that both the AHL and ECHL teams would carry 3 goalies. While I understand the development argument and agree with it, should be pointed out that the schedule in those leagues are a nightmare. 3 games in 3 days is commons, 5 games in 6/7 games is common so carrying extra goalies is really not an issue. 

 

Yeah, I was just thinking about that.  He could easily play in the CHL.  Does he have to be selected in the import draft to play?

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Yeah, I was just thinking about that.  He could easily play in the CHL.  Does he have to be selected in the import draft to play?

 

he's not eligible for the CHL as he was never drafted, as you suggest. 

 

USHL would be an option I believe.