Goaltending

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

But what if I need to go to starbucks or get a haircut? 

 

didn’t I see an article showing US companies leaving Canada? I think Starbucks are closing 200 location. I guess you have to see if one of them is your local.

[travel_dude]

13 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

August it is       What I'm curious about is your position on a rebuild in August, as well as others opinion.

 

Pertaining to this thread, that lends itself to young world-class goaltending prospect acquisition imho.

 

The sooner we start, actually means Less rebuilding pain.  I would have started 2 seasons ago, and we'd be halfway through it by now...already one of the brightest young teams in the NHL with some future superstars in our ranks.

 

I suspect the organization will keep it going until they have actually hit a wall and have zero choice, and then announce a "rebuild" because well they can't do anything else.  That's how it went down last time.

 

Anyway, maybe this time the timing will work.   There are some strong goalies and defencemen becoming available in the draft and if the Flames don't know they're rebuilding they might just pick someone other than a Center

 

Well, I will wait till results are in.

I have no idea what team will show up in the playoffs.

I personally don't like re-builds because it's a hard thing to watch on TV.

Last year, I guess everything worked well until the playoffs.

But there were signs with players like Neal and Hamonic.

Gio was flying too high and forgot how to play.

 

Where we should have been was with extra prospects that we sold away for lesser D & G players.

Smith and Elliott costing us a handful.

Hamonic costing us a couple.

What a waste for two that never really fit.

Hamonic is great at one thing, and nothing else.

The only time he uses it in on the PK.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I personally don't like re-builds because it's a hard thing to watch on TV.

 

 

That's why the beer and wings are essential

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

That's why the beer and wings are essential

 

My liver can't take another Young Guns era.

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

That's why the beer and wings are essential

 

JJ, what video evidence do you have that suggests that Askarov is the 2nd coming....

I asked that in another thread, because the only one given was the Hlinka Cup win by Russia over Canada.

Not exactly a full helping of perfect goaltending, just having someone in the butterfly at the right time.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

JJ, what video evidence do you have that suggests that Askarov is the 2nd coming....

I asked that in another thread, because the only one given was the Hlinka Cup win by Russia over Canada.

Not exactly a full helping of perfect goaltending, just having someone in the butterfly at the right time.

 

 

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

 

 

 

Can't wait till we draft him and Sigalet "gets a hold of him."

[sak22]

10 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Can't wait till we draft him and Sigalet "gets a hold of him."

Does Sigalet ruin goalies? 

 

I know a lot of people have put the blame of having average goaltending and at times awful goaltending for the most part of his tenure, but for the most part he was stuck with guys who had experience of being up and down goalies and all of Hiller, Smith, and Elliott came as should've been expected, great at times and awful at others with Hiller and Elliott remembering they save their worst for the most important times. 

 

Not saying he's the best, but not faulting him completely given what he's had to work with.

[Thebrewcrew]

1 minute ago, sak22 said:

Does Sigalet ruin goalies? 

 

I know a lot of people have put the blame of having average goaltending and at times awful goaltending for the most part of his tenure, but for the most part he was stuck with guys who had experience of being up and down goalies and all of Hiller, Smith, and Elliott came as should've been expected, great at times and awful at others with Hiller and Elliott remembering they save their worst for the most important times. 

 

Not saying he's the best, but not faulting him completely given what he's had to work with.

Sigalet and the Flames are also receiving a ton of credit for reviving Talbot’s career. Whether that’s on the player or team, or somewhere in the middle. I’m  not sure, however Talbot was on his way out of the league at the start of the year, now he’s in line for a multi year deal

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Does Sigalet ruin goalies? 

 

I know a lot of people have put the blame of having average goaltending and at times awful goaltending for the most part of his tenure, but for the most part he was stuck with guys who had experience of being up and down goalies and all of Hiller, Smith, and Elliott came as should've been expected, great at times and awful at others with Hiller and Elliott remembering they save their worst for the most important times. 

 

Not saying he's the best, but not faulting him completely given what he's had to work with.

 

Ya man.  He needs to go.  He broke down Rittich and then built him back up... to where he was originally when he came into the NHL.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Sigalet and the Flames are also receiving a ton of credit for reviving Talbot’s career. Whether that’s on the player or team, or somewhere in the middle. I’m  not sure, however Talbot was on his way out of the league at the start of the year, now he’s in line for a multi year deal

 

Ultimately, Talbot was responsible for becoming Talbot.

He worked with Sigalet on his confidence.

There was no change to Talbot's game.

He was a 1st shot goalie for 2018/19.

He started that way for us after months of prep.

 

Regardless of what he's done for pro goalies on the Flames, that is not the point.

He was not good as a development coach.

Not in the AHL, not with young goalies in the NHL.

[sak22]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ultimately, Talbot was responsible for becoming Talbot.

He worked with Sigalet on his confidence.

There was no change to Talbot's game.

He was a 1st shot goalie for 2018/19.

He started that way for us after months of prep.

 

Regardless of what he's done for pro goalies on the Flames, that is not the point.

He was not good as a development coach.

Not in the AHL, not with young goalies in the NHL.

Who has he had?  Gillies, Rittich and Ortio in the NHL and Ortio and Irving in the AHL.  Ortio had a pretty big year in Abbotsford with him, but was generally an up and down prospect, Irving was a disappointment but not entirely on one coach and obviously with both of those guys no other team had seem anything in them to give them a shot.  So that leaves Gillies and Rittich, Gillies was still on the radar until he stunk up the AHL last year, but his regression in Stockton fell on their coaching.  And Rittich has been fine, some ups and downs for sure as the majority of the leagues goalies do have, still helped a nobody become an adequate NHL starter which deserves some credit.

 

Again not saying he is a god or anything, just don't pin the lack of development on him, when most of the failures are coming in the minor leagues.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Who has he had?  Gillies, Rittich and Ortio in the NHL and Ortio and Irving in the AHL.  Ortio had a pretty big year in Abbotsford with him, but was generally an up and down prospect, Irving was a disappointment but not entirely on one coach and obviously with both of those guys no other team had seem anything in them to give them a shot.  So that leaves Gillies and Rittich, Gillies was still on the radar until he stunk up the AHL last year, but his regression in Stockton fell on their coaching.  And Rittich has been fine, some ups and downs for sure as the majority of the leagues goalies do have, still helped a nobody become an adequate NHL starter which deserves some credit.

 

Again not saying he is a god or anything, just don't pin the lack of development on him, when most of the failures are coming in the minor leagues.

 

When Ortio played with the Heat in 11-12, Signalet was the goalie coach.  Nothing remarkable about his starts.

Ortio went to play in the SM-liiga that season and stayed there for two years.

He cam back and was better.

Played part of the year for the Heat.

The following year he got 9 games with the Flames, where Sigalet was now part of.

 

What does that prove.

Nothing.  He had a young goalie in 13/14 that had spent development years away from him.

At the same time, he had a young goalie named Aaron Dell.

Played 6 games to Joey MacDonald's 16.

Yeah, there's logic.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

Does Sigalet ruin goalies? 

 

I know a lot of people have put the blame of having average goaltending and at times awful goaltending for the most part of his tenure, but for the most part he was stuck with guys who had experience of being up and down goalies and all of Hiller, Smith, and Elliott came as should've been expected, great at times and awful at others with Hiller and Elliott remembering they save their worst for the most important times. 

 

Not saying he's the best, but not faulting him completely given what he's had to work with.

 

I honestly think it has to do with systems in the way the Flames defend. But the usage of the goalies is mind-boggling. I predicted that Elliott would fail in our system. We weren't the Blues. It's not because I am great at those predictions, but I think to two the Flames defend. Even when doing a good job they're not really. For me it's moments in the game. There are opportune times that teams create momentum off of poor reads at the worst times. Then it changes the outlook of games... 

 

Some think it's both. I think the kind of goalies we have are part of it. Sure go for a star goalie, but I think that we'd just end up like the Canadiens, a great goalie who can't win you a cup on their own. Fix how the team plays D and have a good goalie. I look at how the Pens won their cup in that first Back-to-back they recently won...

[sak22]

38 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

When Ortio played with the Heat in 11-12, Signalet was the goalie coach.  Nothing remarkable about his starts.

Ortio went to play in the SM-liiga that season and stayed there for two years.

He cam back and was better.

Played part of the year for the Heat.

The following year he got 9 games with the Flames, where Sigalet was now part of.

 

What does that prove.

Nothing.  He had a young goalie in 13/14 that had spent development years away from him.

At the same time, he had a young goalie named Aaron Dell.

Played 6 games to Joey MacDonald's 16.

Yeah, there's logic.

That's on Sigalet?  He picks the starter every game?  Was it Sigalet's call to sign Dell or release him?  

 

There was a season ticket holders call a month ago that I attended with Ryan Huska, where he discussed when he was hired to by Treliving to coach the farm team, Huska claimed Tre told him that he doesn't care if he goes 0-72 as long as he put the younger players in a better situation to be NHL ready.  It stuck with me because I remember the debates in the previous regime and Troy Ward coaching, they were a competitive team, but complaints many fans had were that we were playing career minor leaguers like Ben Street and Krys Kolanos and sheltering the higher prospects like Nemisz and Howse, it was the win vs. develop debate.  And Sigalet was the goalie coach those years, Leland Irving didn't do so well but Danny Taylor was phenomenal.

 

Just seems weird, a the majority of skaters drafted don't pan out, and when that happens its on the scouts and GM's, a goalie doesn't pan out and its solely on the coach.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, sak22 said:

That's on Sigalet?  He picks the starter every game?  Was it Sigalet's call to sign Dell or release him?  

 

There was a season ticket holders call a month ago that I attended with Ryan Huska, where he discussed when he was hired to by Treliving to coach the farm team, Huska claimed Tre told him that he doesn't care if he goes 0-72 as long as he put the younger players in a better situation to be NHL ready.  It stuck with me because I remember the debates in the previous regime and Troy Ward coaching, they were a competitive team, but complaints many fans had were that we were playing career minor leaguers like Ben Street and Krys Kolanos and sheltering the higher prospects like Nemisz and Howse, it was the win vs. develop debate.  And Sigalet was the goalie coach those years, Leland Irving didn't do so well but Danny Taylor was phenomenal.

 

Just seems weird, a the majority of skaters drafted don't pan out, and when that happens its on the scouts and GM's, a goalie doesn't pan out and its solely on the coach.

 

We know in Calgary that it is the goalie coach's suggestions on starters are listened to.

I will point out that Sigalet was an assistant coach in 2013/14, not listed as a goalie coach.

I don't have evidence, but only suspect that a veteran goalie coach had that same impact in the AHL.

Since Sigalet was hired by the Flames in 2014, and Dell was not kept after 2014, you might expect that he would provide feedback to the GM.

Whether that was listened to or not is suspect.

 

In all the years since he came to CGY, the best performances were Mike Smith and Cam Talbot.

Neither of those players were impacted by Sigalet.

No true stars to work with and only a couple of noteworthy "rookies". 

[cross16]

29 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

 

In all the years since he came to CGY, the best performances were Mike Smith and Cam Talbot.

Neither of those players were impacted by Sigalet.

No true stars to work with and only a couple of noteworthy "rookies". 

 

This is where I get to on Sigalet, how do you know this? how do you know none of them were impacted by him? Sigalet tends to get a lot of praise from the people that work with him. 

 

Personally i don't have a voice in this because I admit I don't know if he is going a good job or not because i'm not there and personally I don't think fans can really judge the work a goalie coach is doing. there are so many variables that impact the output of a goalie to link it to the coach is foolish IMO. I think there has been some positives for Sigalet in Kari Ramo (until he got hurt his game was pretty good), Rittich, Smith and Talbot. You want more results sure but I would lean more towards it being a talent issue then I would it being a Sigalet issue myself. 

 

but i'm also not super invested in it either. If the Flames feel there is a better coach out there then by all means pull the trigger, I just think analysis of this situation isn't really a fans job. 

[travel_dude]

54 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

This is where I get to on Sigalet, how do you know this? how do you know none of them were impacted by him? Sigalet tends to get a lot of praise from the people that work with him. 

 

Personally i don't have a voice in this because I admit I don't know if he is going a good job or not because i'm not there and personally I don't think fans can really judge the work a goalie coach is doing. there are so many variables that impact the output of a goalie to link it to the coach is foolish IMO. I think there has been some positives for Sigalet in Kari Ramo (until he got hurt his game was pretty good), Rittich, Smith and Talbot. You want more results sure but I would lean more towards it being a talent issue then I would it being a Sigalet issue myself. 

 

but i'm also not super invested in it either. If the Flames feel there is a better coach out there then by all means pull the trigger, I just think analysis of this situation isn't really a fans job. 

 

My only real opinion is that other teams have had success with other goalies developed in house.

What I say is conjecture at best.

What walks like a duck.....

[sak22]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I honestly think it has to do with systems in the way the Flames defend. But the usage of the goalies is mind-boggling. I predicted that Elliott would fail in our system. We weren't the Blues. It's not because I am great at those predictions, but I think to two the Flames defend. Even when doing a good job they're not really. For me it's moments in the game. There are opportune times that teams create momentum off of poor reads at the worst times. Then it changes the outlook of games... 

 

 

I agree that I didn't think Elliott would be as strong in Calgary, his season kinda goes down as The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.  Post ASB that year he was 17-6 with a 2.24 GAA and .924, that was very good maybe the best half season stretch since Kipper.  His first half that year was very poor, which the adjustment to the team can be attributed to that, (Wideman was also the most dreadful player I've ever seen, so bad that Stone was major improvement).  And the playoffs was just the ugly, I think if he didn't completely meltdown those last 2 games of the series he could still be here.  It's just unfortunate a young teams first 2 playoff trips are with goalies who couldn't defeat their demons of past playoffs.

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

My only real opinion is that other teams have had success with other goalies developed in house.

What I say is conjecture at best.

What walks like a duck.....

 

have they had it consistently? Where did the goalie come from before that? Are we blaming Sigalet for the 9 or 10 other goalie coaches that came before him who have also not developed someone in house?

 

Lightning have Vasilevsky but had nothing before that so do you give that goalie coach credit?

 

I'm not even defending Sigalet I just find the process of trying to identify the problem interesting, as well why people think if Sigalet goes the problem would be solved. 

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

have they had it consistently? Where did the goalie come from before that? Are we blaming Sigalet for the 9 or 10 other goalie coaches that came before him who have also not developed someone in house?

 

Lightning have Vasilevsky but had nothing before that so do you give that goalie coach credit?

 

I'm not even defending Sigalet I just find the process of trying to identify the problem interesting, as well why people think if Sigalet goes the problem would be solved. 

 

Removing Sigalet would not solve the problem and I don't anticipate that anyone on here has ever thought that way even for a moment.

 

The problem would be recognized.

[Thebrewcrew]

I really think the Flames will pursue Holtby if he hits UFA

 

Holtby won't be getting the long term deal he wanted a year ago, why not take a 1yr deal to try and rebuild value?

 

The Flames helped Talbot resurrect his career. You can blame Sigalet all you want, but the reality is Talbot came to Calgary as a goalie fighting for his NHL career and now he will hit free agency coming off a .919sv% and a multi-year deal in his sights. That could appeal to Holtby, in his mind he's better than Talbot and could come here and do the same. Not sure what kind of money it would take though, probably more than 2.75. He's an "Albertchewan", he might enjoy playing in AB.

 

I really think Talbot will see 3-3.5 on a multi-year deal. NJ, BUF, OTT are teams I could see being interested in him

 

Khudobin will be costly, he's taken the mantle of best backup goalie in the league, Greiss won't be cheap either. As older goalies, I'd expect both wanting 2 year deals, I personally don't want to be paying a 36 year old goalie.

 

Lehner and Markstrom are gonna cost 5-6 on a minimum of a 4 year term.

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I really think the Flames will pursue Holtby if he hits UFA

 

Holtby won't be getting the long term deal he wanted a year ago, why not take a 1yr deal to try and rebuild value?

 

The Flames helped Talbot resurrect his career. You can blame Sigalet all you want, but the reality is Talbot came to Calgary as a goalie fighting for his NHL career and now he will hit free agency coming off a .919sv% and a multi-year deal in his sights. That could appeal to Holtby, in his mind he's better than Talbot and could come here and do the same. Not sure what kind of money it would take though, probably more than 2.75. He's an "Albertchewan", he might enjoy playing in AB.

 

I really think Talbot will see 3-3.5 on a multi-year deal. NJ, BUF, OTT are teams I could see being interested in him

 

Khudobin will be costly, he's taken the mantle of best backup goalie in the league, Greiss won't be cheap either. As older goalies, I'd expect both wanting 2 year deals, I personally don't want to be paying a 36 year old goalie.

 

Lehner and Markstrom are gonna cost 5-6 on a minimum of a 4 year term.

 

I'm not sure if you want this to happen or think it will.

Holtby hasn't be relevent in 2 years.

WAS isn't a great defensive team, but Holtby did not put up great numbers.

3.11 this year.

That does't spell competent starter to me.

Talbot actually thrived this year behind the Flames.

That's not something to be overlooked.

Maybe we can't sign him due to another team, but I don't see Holtby as being a good consolation.

[Thebrewcrew]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not sure if you want this to happen or think it will.

Holtby hasn't be relevent in 2 years.

WAS isn't a great defensive team, but Holtby did not put up great numbers.

3.11 this year.

That does't spell competent starter to me.

Talbot actually thrived this year behind the Flames.

That's not something to be overlooked.

Maybe we can't sign him due to another team, but I don't see Holtby as being a good consolation.

I don’t necessarily want it to but I think they will do it. 
 

I would keep Talbot , but I think he will go to a team like Buffalo where he will get more playing time

[JTech780]

One goalie that should be available for pretty cheap and had a big bounce back year this season is Jake Allen. One more year at $4.35. 

 

Allen had the 4th best Sv% at 5v5 in the league this year. He fits in a tandem situation.

 

St. Louis has about $3m in cap space for next season, they will need to pay Dunn and find a replacement for Pietrangelo.

 

Can probably get Allen for next to nothing.