Goaltending

[phoenix66]

17 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

 

Answer:  I will always wait however long it takes to do things right because no NHL team has ever won a cup by half-assing it in net.  Period. 

 

 

 

Antii Niemi immediately comes to mind..  

[Thebrewcrew]

 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Drafting is a good way to get a top goalie, if he develops into one.

Sometimes completely out of our control.

ANyway, we are going in circles here.

Enjoy the debate.

Perhaps if Talbot or Rittich beat the odds and become that next Renne or whatever, you might change your mind.

Imagine that.  A goalie we have for 5 years that posts a .925 SA%.

Would be nice for a change to not go throught the goalie search every year.

 

I do agree that drafting is a good way.  Should be the best way.

 

That would of course be fantastic if they beat the odds, and yes, there's Rinne.  Me saying "Never" was a bit extreme.   Even if the odds are aweful close to that.

 

You're right, I can't change it now.  I am just reacting to the move.   But when it comes down to it I will hope to be wrong, especially in the playoffs.

 

Better odds than being wrong, imho, are one of Schneider of Parsons or Gillies surprising us.   None have very good chances at it.   Schneider might have the best of the 3.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I do agree that drafting is a good way.  Should be the best way.

 

That would of course be fantastic if they beat the odds, and yes, there's Rinne.  Me saying "Never" was a bit extreme.   Even if the odds are aweful close to that.

 

You're right, I can't change it now.  I am just reacting to the move.   But when it comes down to it I will hope to be wrong, especially in the playoffs.

 

Better odds than being wrong, imho, are one of Schneider of Parsons or Gillies surprising us.   None have very good chances at it.   Schneider might have the best of the 3.

 

I believe they lost the goalie coach in Stockton, which might be a good thing.

Parsons was a big-game goalie before he went to the AHL/ECHL.

Either it messed him up a bit or he was struggling with depression before hand.

They need to get him help to get his confidence back.

No reason why he shouldn't pass all those guys.

The other guy who could really surprise is Zagidulin.

I'm going to focus on spelling his name.

When he makes it, we can call him BSZ. 

[jjgallow]

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/305473/matt-vernon

 

 

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/305473/matt-vernon

 

 

 

Potential.

Likely goes low in the draft, depending on the class.

Willing to give up a 1st for maybe not BPA?

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Potential.

Likely goes low in the draft, depending on the class.

Willing to give up a 1st for maybe not BPA?

 

Sorry I didn't clarify, I was just pointing him out as a familly curiousity, I don't think he has that much potential at 21.  Maybe an outside chance. 

 

I wouldn't really expect him to get drafted in if he is, low.

 

Would I give up a first for the right goalie?  Maybe.   But would prefer to stock up on a few promising ones about a year or 2 before they reach that value.

[rickross]

Cam Talbot and David Rittich. So how does everyone feel about our tandem moving forward? Is this a step back, forward or just more of the status quo in Calgary? 

 

Personally, there are worse options lol..I do think Talbot still has potential to be a 1a. He is playing in front of a better overall D so maybe he is ripe for a bounce back...or not!🙄

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, rickross said:

Cam Talbot and David Rittich. So how does everyone feel about our tandem moving forward? Is this a step back, forward or just more of the status quo in Calgary? 

 

Personally, there are worse options lol..I do think Talbot still has potential to be a 1a. He is playing in front of a better overall D so maybe he is ripe for a bounce back...or not!🙄

 

If the choice was Rittich and Smith or Rittich and Talbot, the answer is pretty easy.

Talbot can redeem himself.

He's not broken down.

He's working on his game before he comes here.

Not a high chance of injury.

 

I pitty the Oiler fans.

It's not like they are getting Smith in his prime.

He has been a poor goalie for the better part of two seasons.

And the only other choice is glove-high Koskinen.

Gully and Smith and Tippett.

Perfect match.

[rickross]

28 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If the choice was Rittich and Smith or Rittich and Talbot, the answer is pretty easy.

Talbot can redeem himself.

He's not broken down.

He's working on his game before he comes here.

Not a high chance of injury.

 

I pitty the Oiler fans.

It's not like they are getting Smith in his prime.

He has been a poor goalie for the better part of two seasons.

And the only other choice is glove-high Koskinen.

Gully and Smith and Tippett.

Perfect match.

Smitty will quickly become a fan fav there...he’s big and plays with an aggressive edge. They’re not used to seeing that kind of character up there..😆. I think Smittys stick work will help out their weak D corps, Talbot down here gets to play with the current Vezina champ in front of him...i think it’ll do wonders for his confidence and comfort tbh. He was never the same after allowing those 3 back breaking goals in OT vs the Ducks in the playoffs. Shout out to Ryan Kessler tho 😲

 

 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, rickross said:

Cam Talbot and David Rittich. So how does everyone feel about our tandem moving forward? Is this a step back, forward or just more of the status quo in Calgary? 

 

Personally, there are worse options lol..I do think Talbot still has potential to be a 1a. He is playing in front of a better overall D so maybe he is ripe for a bounce back...or not!🙄

 

Depends on the context.

 

Would our season have gone as well last year with Talbot and Rittich?  almost definitely not.   Based on Talbot's performance.

 

So we are banking on Talbot being better this year, and Smith being worse this year.   Based on:

1.  age

2.  rescuing Talbot from Oilers

 

There is some logic to it, and there is also a LOT of gamble to it.

 

I will answer, personally, no.  This is not an improvement.  But I am speaking in terms of method.   Different players, same method of gambling with aging vets.  Even if they are a bit younger than Smith.

 

This method has consistently failed us, for a great many years in a row now.  Each year we go into with the same method, we are hopeful the current year's iteration will be different.  Typically it is not.  Could this year be different?  There is an arguement both ways.

 

Personally I don't see this as a means to win a Stanley cup, only to patch holes for a better regular season performance, so I am not impressed either way.  I see it as a waste of our current core.   But I've always been the positive type.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Depends on the context.

 

Would our season have gone as well last year with Talbot and Rittich?  almost definitely not.   Based on Talbot's performance.

 

So we are banking on Talbot being better this year, and Smith being worse this year.   Based on:

1.  age

2.  rescuing Talbot from Oilers

 

There is some logic to it, and there is also a LOT of gamble to it.

 

I will answer, personally, no.  This is not an improvement.  But I am speaking in terms of method.   Different players, same method of gambling with aging vets.  Even if they are a bit younger than Smith.

 

This method has consistently failed us, for a great many years in a row now.  Each year we go into with the same method, we are hopeful the current year's iteration will be different.  Typically it is not.  Could this year be different?  There is an arguement both ways.

 

Personally I don't see this as a means to win a Stanley cup, only to patch holes for a better regular season performance, so I am not impressed either way.  I see it as a waste of our current core.   But I've always been the positive type.

 

 

I do see it as an upgrade or the very least as even to last year. It is a waste of the core plus a lot of picks spent on goalies in the past how many years. With the way the team has placed an emphasis on drafting skill, the picks we’ve spent on goalies could’ve possibly garnered some very skilled players and we could still be at this same place we are now.

 

i am not happy either, because at the time I didn’t want to use those picks on the goalie(S) that we did use them on. Our D and team play tends to exploit average goalies. We say we had a good goal differential but then look at how many games the score was lopsided in our favour. Good to score goals, but we still have up some bad ones. We were lucky to outscore mistakes. But I am as positive as you are so I can see your problem with the situation. 

 

The one big point I see in it, we didn’t have to give up assets to acquire a stopgap. No prospects are ready. 

 

Youre right, we’ve ruined them since Vernon. Kidd was the last best drafted goalie and he was average because we rushed him. But we need something to hold us over, 

 

what are you willing to give up to get a true long term #1? We sure as hell aren’t going to draft or develop one in this core’s lifetime.

 

Maybe one will by the time this core is in need of another contract.

[GM_3300]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I do see it as an upgrade or the very least as even to last year. It is a waste of the core plus a lot of picks spent on goalies in the past how many years. With the way the team has placed an emphasis on drafting skill, the picks we’ve spent on goalies could’ve possibly garnered some very skilled players and we could still be at this same place we are now.

 

i am not happy either, because at the time I didn’t want to use those picks on the goalie(S) that we did use them on. Our D and team play tends to exploit average goalies. We say we had a good goal differential but then look at how many games the score was lopsided in our favour. Good to score goals, but we still have up some bad ones. We were lucky to outscore mistakes. But I am as positive as you are so I can see your problem with the situation. 

 

The one big point I see in it, we didn’t have to give up assets to acquire a stopgap. No prospects are ready. 

 

Youre right, we’ve ruined them since Vernon. Kidd was the last best drafted goalie and he was average because we rushed him. But we need something to hold us over, 

 

what are you willing to give up to get a true long term #1? We sure as hell aren’t going to draft or develop one in this core’s lifetime.

 

Maybe one will by the time this core is in need of another contract.

I think the assessment of our goaltending past and present is getting way over stated here. Rittich has come through and looks to be a well structured fundamentally sound Goalie and Talbot now provides an experience element with some past NHL success. Any team vying for a SC needs a sound defensive game and good goaltending while in the playoffs both have to be outstanding. I would say we have some good prospects in the farm system, most importantly getting reps and seeing rubber should have them better prepared as they inch closer to NHL action.

[travel_dude]

13 hours ago, rickross said:

Smitty will quickly become a fan fav there...he’s big and plays with an aggressive edge. They’re not used to seeing that kind of character up there..😆. I think Smittys stick work will help out their weak D corps, Talbot down here gets to play with the current Vezina champ in front of him...i think it’ll do wonders for his confidence and comfort tbh. He was never the same after allowing those 3 back breaking goals in OT vs the Ducks in the playoffs. Shout out to Ryan Kessler tho 😲

 

 

 

Smith will have the same media types praising him no matter what he does.

The fans will be split much like they were here, but they will tolerate any losing streaks even less.

There is no feel good story for them to start with.

We had him come in and provide 2-3 months of Vezina quality, then meh, then horrorshow.

They are coming off a year of horrorshow.

 

The first 2 game losing streak or pittyful showing will turn the fans against him pretty quick.

First and foremost, he's an ex-Flame.

Secondly, he's old and coming off a sub-900 season.

 

Smith's tendency to play the puck will have a similar win-lose effect as it did here, maybe even more harmful.

The D has to know how to play the puck when Smith start wandering.

They aren't good at breakouts, but they are good at dropping to McDavid or springing him.

 

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Would our season have gone as well last year with Talbot and Rittich?  almost definitely not.   Based on Talbot's performance.

 

So we are banking on Talbot being better this year, and Smith being worse this year.   Based on:

1.  age

2.  rescuing Talbot from Oilers

 

Not an easy thing to compare a goalie in two different settings.  No idea how either would have performed on their respective new teams last year.  But this year isn't about whether Smith will still have legs left.  He did not fit.  He's looking to play 45 games or more in EDM.

We would never get that here, mostly because he only has about 25 good games in him left. And that's being kind.  How's his high-danger chances look?  That's where he will fail.

 

It doesn't matter what he does in EDM.  They have a worse goalie graveyard than us.  It's whether Talbot can come into camp in top form.  He's working on it right now.  Learning how we move the puck and defend will determine whether he's as good as Rittich.  I'm not going to say he's a great goalie until I see it in a Flames sweater.  

 

 

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

Not an easy thing to compare a goalie in two different settings.  No idea how either would have performed on their respective new teams last year.  But this year isn't about whether Smith will still have legs left.  He did not fit.  He's looking to play 45 games or more in EDM.

We would never get that here, mostly because he only has about 25 good games in him left. And that's being kind.  How's his high-danger chances look?  That's where he will fail.

 

It doesn't matter what he does in EDM.  They have a worse goalie graveyard than us.  It's whether Talbot can come into camp in top form.  He's working on it right now.  Learning how we move the puck and defend will determine whether he's as good as Rittich.  I'm not going to say he's a great goalie until I see it in a Flames sweater.  

 

 

 

 

Agreed that it is not at all an easy thing to compare a goalie in two different settings.   Of course all of us are doing that here, which is we I brought up the "gamble" word.

 

Agree with you that Smith will fail, but only because he's going to Edmonton now   I do also generally support moving goalies his age on, yes.   But honestly at the end of the day he was better last year than Talbot, and both of them will be going for a high number of games this year.   So we haven't improved our "fitting".

 

None of my complaining on here has actually accomplished anything, of course I do hope Riittich jumps up another level next year.   Which is really the calculation being made in all this.  With Talbot being the fallback.

 

And I also know that, if they let us down, and I come on next year and say 'I told you so", it also won't change anything and they'll just sign on another 30+ vet or two and everyone will be excited again.

 

So, I'm going to focus on becoming a billionaire and buying the team.  My chances are better

[Cowtownguy]

48 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

Agreed that it is not at all an easy thing to compare a goalie in two different settings.   Of course all of us are doing that here, which is we I brought up the "gamble" word.

 

Agree with you that Smith will fail, but only because he's going to Edmonton now   I do also generally support moving goalies his age on, yes.   But honestly at the end of the day he was better last year than Talbot, and both of them will be going for a high number of games this year.   So we haven't improved our "fitting".

 

None of my complaining on here has actually accomplished anything, of course I do hope Riittich jumps up another level next year.   Which is really the calculation being made in all this.  With Talbot being the fallback.

 

And I also know that, if they let us down, and I come on next year and say 'I told you so", it also won't change anything and they'll just sign on another 30+ vet or two and everyone will be excited again.

 

So, I'm going to focus on becoming a billionaire and buying the team.  My chances are better

I hear what you are saying. I am not impressed with our goaltending or our ability to spot/develop our own goaltenders. It remains to be seen what becomes of our newbies. I wanted a true #1 goalie as much as anyone. Given that short-term options were limited, I think that Treliving made the best choice. I have some confidence in Rittich as the starter, and Talbot could make things interesting. Edmonton waaaaay overplayed him in 2017, and I think most of us knew that would bite him/them in the butt at some point. I forget his workload, but it was insane. Surprise, surprise, they burnt him out. He is still young enough to make the last two seasons a vague memory. 

 

If nothing else, it will make the games between Edmonton and Calgary all that more interesting ... if weird.

[DirtyDeeds]

Talbot is a reclaimation project that has to work out. We have no 1c ready to go.

 

Is this tandem an upgrade over last year?

We don't know yet. It is only an upgrade if Talbot can be coached back to previous years form. Anything less and we are far worse off. 

[travel_dude]

56 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Agree with you that Smith will fail, but only because he's going to Edmonton now   I do also generally support moving goalies his age on, yes.   But honestly at the end of the day he was better last year than Talbot, and both of them will be going for a high number of games this year.   So we haven't improved our "fitting".

 

The difference is that Talbot is signed to be the backup not asked to be the backup.

Smith struggled with that concept.

His play didn't really improve because he played less games.

It improved because he got the chance to play a bunch of games against lesser teams.

He played some good ones against a few tough teams.

 

Talbot never got a chance once he cratered.

Koskinen was worse, but they had made the decision.

All in all, I saw a lot of good play from Talbot, even if his numbers didn't show it.

 

 

[Cowtownguy]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The difference is that Talbot is signed to be the backup not asked to be the backup.

Smith struggled with that concept.

His play didn't really improve because he played less games.

It improved because he got the chance to play a bunch of games against lesser teams.

He played some good ones against a few tough teams.

 

Talbot never got a chance once he cratered.

Koskinen was worse, but they had made the decision.

All in all, I saw a lot of good play from Talbot, even if his numbers didn't show it.

 

 

I really liked Hiller. I mean, he was absolutely amazing in his younger years. I watched that guy stand on his head for several years. Then, it was like all of the talent in him just vanished. He really seemed to want it and fought to be better, he just couldn't swing it. The same process appears to be hitting Smith. Again, he had some really good years in him, but I think he is finished. Even playing for Edmonton I would like to see him excel, but I doubt it will happen. I am not sure he can ever really be a successful #2 goalie. That is a positive comment on his competitive spirit.

 

I do think you nailed it with Talbot. Edmonton seriously pooched him out playing game after game without rest. I think that dude played more in 2017 than Kipper often did each year, and few will measure up to that performance level. I remember in a 2017 interview, he claimed that more games played helped him perform better. I thought that he was just parroting what the brass was saying, and that no goalie could sustain that work load. He was a lamb about to be sacrificed by the old boys club. Voila, they did exactly what I, and I suspect many of us, thought they would. They ruined a solid goalie in order to cover up other inadequacies of the team. 

 

Smith will be a good addition to Edmonton if they use him sparingly, and he is as much of a mentor than anything. Who knows, he might turn into a good goalie coach. I like our chances with Talbot being the goalie than Smith at this point. 

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Smith will be a good addition to Edmonton if they use him sparingly, and he is as much of a mentor than anything. Who knows, he might turn into a good goalie coach. I like our chances with Talbot being the goalie than Smith at this point. 

 

I think they should have bit the bullet and gone after Mrazek or Lehner.

Koskinen is not a guy I would bet McDavid on.

Having him and Smith to take on the ire of fans and possibly lose the locker room will kill their team.

Not aying that will happen, but it might just shake out that way.

 

I lost my patience with Smith due to his failure to accept the blame.

He changed a bit as the year wore on and became more supportive, but he PO'd me.

 

Basically they have two equal goalies IMHO.

Both are big goalies.

Neither would be athletic. 

Both are weak on the glove side.

When they had Talbot and Brossoit, I thought they had something.

 

[redfire11]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I lost my patience with Smith due to his failure to accept the blame.

Agreed this was my biggest Smith complaint.

Oh Ya and consistently being out of position

and OH Ya clearing the puck onto an oppositions stick.

 

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Talbot is a reclaimation project that has to work out. We have no 1c ready to go.

 

Is this tandem an upgrade over last year?

We don't know yet. It is only an upgrade if Talbot can be coached back to previous years form. Anything less and we are far worse off. 

 

 

This isn’t a shot at you or anyone, just an observation. Smith didn’t look like an NHL goalie with the exception for a handful of games and did get wins despite it. 

 

I dont have faith that  it could happen again, but a lot of posters like to talk about goal differential and other stats, but you’re right, i don’t think it’s sustainable to have the same goaltending performance last year by one of our goalies. But if he’s equal to Smith then does that mean he can get the same W’s?

[cccsberg]

On 7/9/2019 at 2:06 AM, robrob74 said:

 

 

I do see it as an upgrade or the very least as even to last year. It is a waste of the core plus a lot of picks spent on goalies in the past how many years. With the way the team has placed an emphasis on drafting skill, the picks we’ve spent on goalies could’ve possibly garnered some very skilled players and we could still be at this same place we are now.

 

i am not happy either, because at the time I didn’t want to use those picks on the goalie(S) that we did use them on. Our D and team play tends to exploit average goalies. We say we had a good goal differential but then look at how many games the score was lopsided in our favour. Good to score goals, but we still have up some bad ones. We were lucky to outscore mistakes. But I am as positive as you are so I can see your problem with the situation. 

 

The one big point I see in it, we didn’t have to give up assets to acquire a stopgap. No prospects are ready. 

 

Youre right, we’ve ruined them since Vernon. Kidd was the last best drafted goalie and he was average because we rushed him. But we need something to hold us over, 

 

what are you willing to give up to get a true long term #1? We sure as hell aren’t going to draft or develop one in this core’s lifetime.

 

Maybe one will by the time this core is in need of another contract.

Complaining about goalies seems like a fool's errand.  We have not had great success over the past decade or so, though we have had some great goaltending in that time.  The problem is in the position itself.  There are extremely few elite-level goalies that consistently stay there year after year.  Even guys like Price and Lundquist and Bobrovsky have bad years and fluctuate.  I'm betting you complainers would even complain about them, and then where do we go?  The other issue is who do you pick-up?  The only elite guy we passed on recently is Bobrovsky, and for $10mm/year+ (way plus+++ to get him to even consider Calgary) even you guys were not hot to go get him.  Goaltenders are in many ways like Forwards and D, predicting future success is fraught with problems.  Hey, we picked up a solid, consistent, agitating playoff-performing scorer last year and look how his first year here was.  Not as predicted.  

 

Who has succeeded at Goalie recently?  Binnington, some 3rd-string nobody who came out of nowhere?..... Fleury, well yeah, a first-overall  no brainer with something to prove..... and.....?  BT has been after a top-level goalie for years..... aforementioned Fleury..... Bishop, 3 times..... probably others.   He has also brought in multiple guys succeeding in the KHL/Europe (e.g. Rittich) and drafted some multiple elite-looking prospects.  This is a team game.  Outside of Elliot a couple years ago I don't think goalies killed our playoffs recently.  Certainly not Smith this past Spring.  If it makes you guys feel better venting/complaining/negativity, hey..... But personally I think the combo of Rittich (top5 goalie last year before injured)/Talbot (top3 goalie before Oiler reality caved his early career)/ and multiple previously elite-looking prospects still developing and waiting is pretty much a home run for the team, especially considering Cap, contracts, age and availability.  Will that be enough?  We'll have to see what else happens.  Many-a-team hit a home run or three and still lose their game.  Could happen here but at least BT has given the team a chance. 

[travel_dude]

20 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Talbot is a reclaimation project that has to work out. We have no 1c ready to go.

 

Is this tandem an upgrade over last year?

We don't know yet. It is only an upgrade if Talbot can be coached back to previous years form. Anything less and we are far worse off. 

There is some hope that the early season Rittich is what we get for a full season from him.

Talbot is being looked at to be the backup.

You are right, it's a big change from last year.

Talbot needs to be a backup the same way he was in NY.

If not, then we have to look mid-season at a replacement.

 

My biggest concern with him rebounding is the goalie coach trying to change him.

If Talbot can come in good after working on his game, he should be better than last year.

The differences in teams should allow him to be better.

[GM_3300]

On 7/3/2019 at 7:40 PM, Thebrewcrew said:

 

Good to hear because it starts with the right attitude. Parsons is our future and we shouldn't lose track of this one.