Goaltending

[MAC331]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Other than Niemi, who played behind a stacked Blackhawks team, is this really a fair statement? I'm not sure I would agree with this statement. Many point to Chris Osgood, but then also don't realize that Chris Osgood has more career wins than Dominik Hasek. I'd be wiling to concede that avg to good goalies, non elite, have won cups because they were able to raise their game to a borderline elite level. I think of names like Cam Ward or Holtby, guys you may not considered anything but solid goalies but I think they key thing is they played like very good to elite goalies in order to help those teams win cups. 

 

Do the Flames have that goalie right now? i'm not sure and I think its fair to question. Personally i'm not sure if Smith has that level anymore and with Rittich it's still early but I question it too. That being said I only think it's a situation worth monitoring and I don't think the Flames are in "we must acquire a starter" mode right now. 

Thus the term "hot" goaltending wins the SC. Regardless of all this dialogue I don't see where the Flames are going to make a change. Once this team gets settled in and plays like a team I can see our goaltending worries being lessened.

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Other than Niemi, who played behind a stacked Blackhawks team, is this really a fair statement? I'm not sure I would agree with this statement. Many point to Chris Osgood, but then also don't realize that Chris Osgood has more career wins than Dominik Hasek. I'd be wiling to concede that avg to good goalies, non elite, have won cups because they were able to raise their game to a borderline elite level. I think of names like Cam Ward or Holtby, guys you may not considered anything but solid goalies but I think they key thing is they played like very good to elite goalies in order to help those teams win cups. 

 

Do the Flames have that goalie right now? i'm not sure and I think its fair to question. Personally i'm not sure if Smith has that level anymore and with Rittich it's still early but I question it too. That being said I only think it's a situation worth monitoring and I don't think the Flames are in "we must acquire a starter" mode right now. 

Fair enough. You just rang up the ones on my mind.

All of those tenders had playing-for-the-Cup elite level hockey skaters.

Patty Roy and JS Giguere are the last 2 ones I remember stealing a cup.

That's a lot of miles of road behind us.

[The_People1]

 

A career ending goal.

 

Condon clears waivers.

[kehatch]

39 goalies have played five or more games this season. In that group Rittich is 3 in save percentage. Smith is 39. They both have the same team in front of them. 

 

The good news is Allen, Fleury, Holtby, Murray, and Bobrovsky are also near the bottom of that list and have sub 900 save percentages. The bad news is (with the exception of Murray) these guys have been better then their back ups so it points to a team issue (at least in part). The other bad news is Smith has been a fair hit worse then the guys on this list. 

[cross16]

There have definitely been games where you can point to both the goalies and the team but last night was not one of them. The only blip on the Flames performance was the PP, everything else was excellent and Smith still was terrible. 

 

It's early and while he can still turn it around I personally don't believe he will. This has all the signs of a player who age has simply caught up with. I see it in his reflexes, he's just not quite as sharp or as quick and I think now that's starting to impact his confidence. He's just fighting the puck like crazy and that's just such a troubling sign for a veteran goalie of his experience level. 

 

Not much you can do but monitor the situation and mintor situations around the league but I think the idea that Smith is your starter is out. You have a goalie committee and you need to run with it. 

[JTech780]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

There have definitely been games where you can point to both the goalies and the team but last night was not one of them. The only blip on the Flames performance was the PP, everything else was excellent and Smith still was terrible. 

 

It's early and while he can still turn it around I personally don't believe he will. This has all the signs of a player who age has simply caught up with. I see it in his reflexes, he's just not quite as sharp or as quick and I think now that's starting to impact his confidence. He's just fighting the puck like crazy and that's just such a troubling sign for a veteran goalie of his experience level. 

 

Not much you can do but monitor the situation and mintor situations around the league but I think the idea that Smith is your starter is out. You have a goalie committee and you need to run with it. 

 

I agree, at this point you just have to run with the hot hand. Run Rittich out there and see what he can do and do it till he cools off.

[robrob74]

I felt last night the team didn’t skate in the 2nd period, at least not until the Hit on Jankowski and the Bennett response to it. 

That 2nd period killed us.

 

Not saying Smith is not to blame. I was pissed at his performance. I defend goalies and he just hasn’t looked sharp over 60% of the time this year. 

 

 

It is too easy to lump all the games in one, or saying both Rittich and Smith have the same team playing in front of them... truth is, this team has looked bad in front of both, but possibly worse in front of smith. If we are to put team play into a stat like win% then I think the team has moved to roughly .500 hockey. They have roughly played bad in 50% of the games and well in 50%.

 

Anyway, I heard on the radio driving into work, right now league average goaltending is at .909 SV%

 

With that said, I hope the team has turned a corner and continue to play engaged in games and that Rittich can keep it up. TRhe team has to seriously think about starting Rittich a bit more and Smith needs to get his Satoshi Nakamoto together in practice.

[MAC331]

37 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I agree, at this point you just have to run with the hot hand. Run Rittich out there and see what he can do and do it till he cools off.

That is not going to happen

[MAC331]

29 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I felt last night the team didn’t skate in the 2nd period, at least not until the Hit on Jankowski and the Bennett response to it. 

That 2nd period killed us.

 

Not saying Smith is not to blame. I was pissed at his performance. I defend goalies and he just hasn’t looked sharp over 60% of the time this year. 

 

 

It is too easy to lump all the games in one, or saying both Rittich and Smith have the same team playing in front of them... truth is, this team has looked bad in front of both, but possibly worse in front of smith. If we are to put team play into a stat like win% then I think the team has moved to roughly .500 hockey. They have roughly played bad in 50% of the games and well in 50%.

 

Anyway, I heard on the radio driving into work, right now league average goaltending is at .909 SV%

 

With that said, I hope the team has turned a corner and continue to play engaged in games and that Rittich can keep it up. TRhe team has to seriously think about starting Rittich a bit more and Smith needs to get his Satoshi Nakamoto together in practice.

Last night's game could/should serve as a good rally for team togetherness. I share and see the same concerns with Smith however he is also one of the veteran Leaders of this group which will have him in a favored position to play.

[redfire11]

I think there is 2 main reasons for our tremendous 3rd period last night. 1) I think the team rallied behind Smith when they knew he was having a bad game. Not saying they couldn't or wouldn't behind Rittich but it goes to show Smith's impact on the team most likely off the ice. (next year we could do with a new goalie coach). 2) Bennett's intensity and drive gave life to a seemingly deflated group. 2 thumbs up Bennett.

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

I think there is 2 main reasons for our tremendous 3rd period last night. 1) I think the team rallied behind Smith when they knew he was having a bad game. Not saying they couldn't or wouldn't behind Rittich but it goes to show Smith's impact on the team most likely off the ice. (next year we could do with a new goalie coach). 2) Bennett's intensity and drive gave life to a seemingly deflated group. 2 thumbs up Bennett.

 

 

I think more the latter.

 

I sure hope we don't play tremendously only to rally behind Smith.  We need to play tremendously regardless.

[robrob74]

21 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think more the latter.

 

I sure hope we don't play tremendously only to rally behind Smith.  We need to play tremendously regardless.

 

I feel the same. And it should be for each and every player in the room, if not just for the fans. 

 

I see glimpses and then they fall. It has been similar and there is reason for optimism. They just have to sustain the play and I think they have some players who can. 

 

I think Bennett showed how a response is needed, why I think there needs to be one on Gaudreau’s line. Be a, you don’t hit my guy” kind of team that responds in kind, and they’ll keep playing for each other.

 

rhe past few years, it has looked like a lot on the team just don’t care for each other.

 

bennett has shown we don’t need goon toughness, but someone who is willing to do it. Sure Hamonic got a fractured face... but he’s a team guy. 

[kehatch]

6 hours ago, MAC331 said:

That is not going to happen

 

Apples taste better in pie then in salad. 

[conundrumed]

34 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Apples taste better in pie then in salad. 

A perfectly ripened Honeycrisp on it's own trumps all!

 

What I'm seeing from Smith is he's losing his net. His coverage is weak and he's not recognizing where he his.

That's coachable but our goalie coach has googly eyes for Smith, it would seem. Like our GM.

A good goalie coach would see that, sit down with Smith and show him. Smith has to know it himself.

Finding your angles is like trigonometry. There are markers all over the ice a Goalie can draw lines to, not just the shooter.

It's fixable in a week. Smith can't be so proud to not go back to the basics.

 

I have a really easy time contrasting him to Rittich. Rittich has the fundies up the ying-yang. He doesn't have to be the amazing save guy because he's always where he should be. He's extrememely pragmatic and doesn't have to exert a lot of energy most of the time.

I'd love to meet Smith just to gauge his personality.

Things he's doing wrong are things any goalie camp coach can fix.

That's my opinion. That shorty goal against was hideous. I've seen that 3 times from him this year from what I've caught.

For me, it's not that Smith is losing his ability, he needs someone to get him regrouped/dialed in and remembering the things that got him to the NHL (not stickhandling).

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

A perfectly ripened Honeycrisp on it's own trumps all!

 

What I'm seeing from Smith is he's losing his net. His coverage is weak and he's not recognizing where he his.

That's coachable but our goalie coach has googly eyes for Smith, it would seem. Like our GM.

A good goalie coach would see that, sit down with Smith and show him. Smith has to know it himself.

Finding your angles is like trigonometry. There are markers all over the ice a Goalie can draw lines to, not just the shooter.

It's fixable in a week. Smith can't be so proud to not go back to the basics.

 

I have a really easy time contrasting him to Rittich. Rittich has the fundies up the ying-yang. He doesn't have to be the amazing save guy because he's always where he should be. He's extrememely pragmatic and doesn't have to exert a lot of energy most of the time.

I'd love to meet Smith just to gauge his personality.

Things he's doing wrong are things any goalie camp coach can fix.

That's my opinion. That shorty goal against was hideous. I've seen that 3 times from him this year from what I've caught.

For me, it's not that Smith is losing his ability, he needs someone to get him regrouped/dialed in and remembering the things that got him to the NHL (not stickhandling).

 

Your observations are sound.  Agreed.

The conclusion is debatable.  He looks like his reflexes have slowed down.  He's essentially waving at pucks.

The shorty was amazing to watch...him so badly play it.  I had no idea where the puck went in from watching him.  

The leaky goal was from being too slow to close the door.

The deflection off Ras was preventable, or at least he could have been in a position to make a kick at it.

The tap in goal was about the only one I give a pass to.  He played shooter and had no room to get back for the tap in.  Not even close.

The waved off goal was him losing it, probably had no idea where it was.

Landeskog's goal was maybe decently played, because he only played well in spurts of the 3rd period.

Got the Bronx cheer from the fans every easy stop he made.  Classless, but warranted.

 

I know that BP is keeping it close to the chest, but lets be real here.  Rittich is playing well, Smith is not.  You can be coy to the media, because it's a coaching thing to keep the other teams in doubt.  You can;t seriously start Smith with any confidence that he will be Smith the Good on a given night.  Rittich plays the same way every game.  No surprise there.  Maybe he can;r b the starter even in the short term, but you have to split the starts leaning more towards Rittich.  It's not an insult.  It's reality.  If Smith takes a pouter over that, then he's not a team guy.  Rittich is his biggest fan.  He supports him the way the backup should.

 

BT needs to be looking out there.  It may even be time to talk to Mason.  Had a tough year, but honestly he couldn;t be any worse.  Send Smith on a conditioning stint.  Ask him  first.  But he needs to be part of the solution.  Carrying 3 goalies is bad, but we may need to bring in a starter to keep the team above water.

 

Sorry for the diatribe.  Frustrated watching Smith fail.  One or two good games and that's about it.  

[stubblejumper1]

9 hours ago, MAC331 said:

That is not going to happen

 

Are you suggesting the Flames aren't serious about dressing the best lineup?

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Your observations are sound.  Agreed.

The conclusion is debatable.  He looks like his reflexes have slowed down.  He's essentially waving at pucks.

The shorty was amazing to watch...him so badly play it.  I had no idea where the puck went in from watching him.  

The leaky goal was from being too slow to close the door.

The deflection off Ras was preventable, or at least he could have been in a position to make a kick at it.

The tap in goal was about the only one I give a pass to.  He played shooter and had no room to get back for the tap in.  Not even close.

The waved off goal was him losing it, probably had no idea where it was.

Landeskog's goal was maybe decently played, because he only played well in spurts of the 3rd period.

Got the Bronx cheer from the fans every easy stop he made.  Classless, but warranted.

 

I know that BP is keeping it close to the chest, but lets be real here.  Rittich is playing well, Smith is not.  You can be coy to the media, because it's a coaching thing to keep the other teams in doubt.  You can;t seriously start Smith with any confidence that he will be Smith the Good on a given night.  Rittich plays the same way every game.  No surprise there.  Maybe he can;r b the starter even in the short term, but you have to split the starts leaning more towards Rittich.  It's not an insult.  It's reality.  If Smith takes a pouter over that, then he's not a team guy.  Rittich is his biggest fan.  He supports him the way the backup should.

 

BT needs to be looking out there.  It may even be time to talk to Mason.  Had a tough year, but honestly he couldn;t be any worse.  Send Smith on a conditioning stint.  Ask him  first.  But he needs to be part of the solution.  Carrying 3 goalies is bad, but we may need to bring in a starter to keep the team above water.

 

Sorry for the diatribe.  Frustrated watching Smith fail.  One or two good games and that's about it.  

I respectfully disagree. Smith "needs to slooow down". As my 3 yr olds used to say.

He's way too hyper back there.

Trying to do too much. Pull him back. Just protect the 6x4.

[redfire11]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Your observations are sound.  Agreed.

The conclusion is debatable.  He looks like his reflexes have slowed down.  He's essentially waving at pucks.

The shorty was amazing to watch...him so badly play it.  I had no idea where the puck went in from watching him.  

The leaky goal was from being too slow to close the door.

The deflection off Ras was preventable, or at least he could have been in a position to make a kick at it.

The tap in goal was about the only one I give a pass to.  He played shooter and had no room to get back for the tap in.  Not even close.

The waved off goal was him losing it, probably had no idea where it was.

Landeskog's goal was maybe decently played, because he only played well in spurts of the 3rd period.

Got the Bronx cheer from the fans every easy stop he made.  Classless, but warranted.

 

I know that BP is keeping it close to the chest, but lets be real here.  Rittich is playing well, Smith is not.  You can be coy to the media, because it's a coaching thing to keep the other teams in doubt.  You can;t seriously start Smith with any confidence that he will be Smith the Good on a given night.  Rittich plays the same way every game.  No surprise there.  Maybe he can;r b the starter even in the short term, but you have to split the starts leaning more towards Rittich.  It's not an insult.  It's reality.  If Smith takes a pouter over that, then he's not a team guy.  Rittich is his biggest fan.  He supports him the way the backup should.

 

BT needs to be looking out there.  It may even be time to talk to Mason.  Had a tough year, but honestly he couldn;t be any worse.  Send Smith on a conditioning stint.  Ask him  first.  But he needs to be part of the solution.  Carrying 3 goalies is bad, but we may need to bring in a starter to keep the team above water.

 

Sorry for the diatribe.  Frustrated watching Smith fail.  One or two good games and that's about it.  

I am one of Smith's greatest fans but I lean towards Smith backing up Rittich.

[kehatch]

I don't think either goalie is particularly athletic at this point. Rittich never was and Smith has lost a few steps. It is probably why neither does particularly well when the Flames D falls apart. 

 

I don't like Rittich as a starter. I have been very vocal about that and I will continue to be until he proves me wrong. Barring a trade I still think our best case forward is to get Smith going while managing Rittichs starts so he can continue to have success. 

 

That said, I am a bad start or two from pulling the plug on Smith. 10 starts should be enough to tell the difference between a slow start and age catching up. It's starting to spiral now as his confidence is impacted. 

 

I would start Rittich next game and then Smith the one after. After that my objective if I am the coach isn't to get Smith going anymore. It's to play my best goalie. If I am the GM it's to find a starter. Of course, I think that should have been the objective starting last June. 

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, stubblejumper1 said:

 

Are you suggesting the Flames aren't serious about dressing the best lineup?

What I am suggesting is that they will not play head games with their regular starter at this stage of the season. We know Rittich can be good with limited starts and action but let's not think this small sample is going to have them benching Smith.

[travel_dude]

57 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

What I am suggesting is that they will not play head games with their regular starter at this stage of the season. We know Rittich can be good with limited starts and action but let's not think this small sample is going to have them benching Smith.

 

After the COL game, do you suggest they start Smith and allow him to get his game back?

We can't afford to wait right now.  

What we can afford to do is dress the guy the coach thinks is showing a winning attitude or record.

Start Smith.  If he doesn;t look good, next game dress Rittich.

If he looks great, make th decision based on the way the team looks and his record against the next team.

Dress Rittich, if he doesn;t look good, dress Smith. 

If he looks great, make the decision the same way as above.

 

Starts should never be given.  Smith has to compete the same way as every player on the roster.

[kehatch]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

What I am suggesting is that they will not play head games with their regular starter at this stage of the season. We know Rittich can be good with limited starts and action but let's not think this small sample is going to have them benching Smith.

 

I agree. For now. The best situation is to get Smith going. You do that by getting him starts and treating him like the starter. Rittich maintaining his level of play with a bigger workload is far from a certainty (and is down right unlikely). 

 

But the Flames are running out of time and Smith is running out of rope. If his next start is a mess he gets yanked in my opinion and we start to roll the dice on Rittich. If Smith has a strong start he earns a bit more rope. 

[MAC331]

23 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I agree. For now. The best situation is to get Smith going. You do that by getting him starts and treating him like the starter. Rittich maintaining his level of play with a bigger workload is far from a certainty (and is down right unlikely). 

 

But the Flames are running out of time and Smith is running out of rope. If his next start is a mess he gets yanked in my opinion and we start to roll the dice on Rittich. If Smith has a strong start he earns a bit more rope. 

Perhaps but we will see.

[JTech780]

Rittich gets the start tonight versus Chicago. Which IMO is the right call.

[kehatch]

Rinne just extended. I wonder if that makes Saros available?