Goaltending

[cross16]

Murray isn't going anywhere. If Pittsburgh trades anyone it will be Fleury. Matt Murray at not even 22 Years old just got the Pens further than Fleury has in years. He is off the market, no doubt in my mind. I honestly don't even think the Penguins would consider trading him if you offered Bennett. 

 

I think Fleury is the one that will get dealt and I definitely think the Flames should inquire and for the right price I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. I also don't thinkt he price is going to be huge because of the limited goalie market and the fact that he is paid 5 mill plus for the next 3 years. 

[travel_dude]

Murray isn't going anywhere. If Pittsburgh trades anyone it will be Fleury. Matt Murray at not even 22 Years old just got the Pens further than Fleury has in years. He is off the market, no doubt in my mind. I honestly don't even think the Penguins would consider trading him if you offered Bennett. 

 

I think Fleury is the one that will get dealt and I definitely think the Flames should inquire and for the right price I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. I also don't thinkt he price is going to be huge because of the limited goalie market and the fact that he is paid 5 mill plus for the next 3 years. 

 

 

Pitts is going to have an issue if the expansion occurs.  MAF is on a NMC, so he is protected.  Makes it a bit harder to protect their "core".  

[cross16]

Pitts is going to have an issue if the expansion occurs.  MAF is on a NMC, so he is protected.  Makes it a bit harder to protect their "core".  

 

All the more reason why I think Fleury will be on the trade block this summer. 

[Krule]

All the more reason why I think Fleury will be on the trade block this summer.

Wouldn't he have to agree with the removal of his NMC? Provided expansion will occur.

[FlamesLogic]

Murray isn't going anywhere. If Pittsburgh trades anyone it will be Fleury. Matt Murray at not even 22 Years old just got the Pens further than Fleury has in years. He is off the market, no doubt in my mind. I honestly don't even think the Penguins would consider trading him if you offered Bennett. 

 

I think Fleury is the one that will get dealt and I definitely think the Flames should inquire and for the right price I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. I also don't thinkt he price is going to be huge because of the limited goalie market and the fact that he is paid 5 mill plus for the next 3 years. 

Agreed, IF expansion comes, one of them becomes available. With the play of Murray being at least on par with MAF proper asset management would dictate they keep the more cost effective goalie. 

That makes MAF available.

This is only if expansion becomes a factor. If not then they keep both as they are still affordable right now. 

[travel_dude]

All the more reason why I think Fleury will be on the trade block this summer. 

 

The NMC could limit the teams they can talk to.  He could make it virtuously impossible to trade by eliminating teams "in the market" for a goalie.  I think he has to submit a list of 12 teams (or is it 8) that he wouldn't go to at the start of a season.  

[cross16]

Wouldn't he have to agree with the removal of his NMC? Provided expansion will occur.

 

 

Agreed, IF expansion comes, one of them becomes available. With the play of Murray being at least on par with MAF proper asset management would dictate they keep the more cost effective goalie. 

That makes MAF available.

This is only if expansion becomes a factor. If not then they keep both as they are still affordable right now. 

 

 

The NMC could limit the teams they can talk to.  He could make it virtuously impossible to trade by eliminating teams "in the market" for a goalie.  I think he has to submit a list of 12 teams (or is it 8) that he wouldn't go to at the start of a season.  

 

I think people make too much of NMC. What are the chances you think Fleury is going to say "OK" to the idea of being a backup behind Murray? There is no doubt in my mind if its a choice of back up or 1B to Murray versus starting in Calgary he would pick Calgary.

 

They are affordable for 1 season. next summer Murray in an RFA and at this rate would be due a fairly substantial raise. 

[travel_dude]

I think people make too much of NMC. What are the chances you think Fleury is going to say "OK" to the idea of being a backup behind Murray? Tehre is no doubt in my mind if its a hcoice of back up or 1B to Murray versus starting in Calgary he would pick Calgary.

 

They are affordable for 1 season. next summer Murray in an RFA and at this rate would be due a fairly substantial raise. 

 

Playing 1b for your home team at same money vs being traded to a Canadian team (CDN taxes) or some other team not a contender.  Generally speaking, he would lose net salary coming to Canada.  I can't speak to the player's mindset, but a new team with less salary sounds like a reason to stay put.  If he values money versus opportunity that is.

[MAC331]

Playing 1b for your home team at same money vs being traded to a Canadian team (CDN taxes) or some other team not a contender.  Generally speaking, he would lose net salary coming to Canada.  I can't speak to the player's mindset, but a new team with less salary sounds like a reason to stay put.  If he values money versus opportunity that is.

Do you even know the tax differences ?

[travel_dude]

Do you even know the tax differences ?

 

You don't?

[bosn111]

I am just going to throw this into the mix as an overall comment on goaltending and people can take the information as they will. This may have already been said, but it takes repeating for those who are ultra focused on grabbing a top goalie.

First off, there were a total of 18 goalies in the league who played at least 20 games this season and had a save % above .920. Of those 18, 4 didn't even make the playoffs. 2 of those goalies who didn't make the playoffs are Sabres. That means that at least 2 teams of the 16 who made the playoffs had goalies with below .920 save percentages.

There were / are 4 goalies in the playoffs with LOWER save percentages than Ramo did this season including Rinne, Lehtonen, Howard and Niemi. Goalies who are often touted as starters or that people think should be upgrades on Ramo who had worse sv% than Ramo last season include Bernier, Gustavsson, Hutchison and Pavelec.

Now I do believe that the Flames need to get better goaltending overall or at least should. That being said, Ramo's numbers include his slow start where he had no real idea where he fit with the Flames and had little faith in him from coaching. Once he was the sure starter, his numbers came up. Is Ramo the type of goalie you win the Stanley cup with? not likely, but he is a starter in the league.

I think that if the Flames can get a starting goalie who is definitely ready, on the cheap, then you go for it. IF the Flames can re-sign Ramo to a 2.5 mil 1 year prove it contract to buy time for Gillies and / or MacDonald plus sign Ortio to a 1.5 mil 1 year prove it, then you do it. If Gillies or MacDonald pull a rabbit out and kill it in training camp, at the lowish contracts, both Ortio and Ramo would be easy trades based on last years play alone.

I wouldn't be disappointed to see the goaltending change, nor would I be disappointed seeing a Ramo, Ortio tandem for another year.

Teams can be successful with average goaltending if they can have solid D and O to make up for it.

[DirtyDeeds]

I am just going to throw this into the mix as an overall comment on goaltending and people can take the information as they will. This may have already been said, but it takes repeating for those who are ultra focused on grabbing a top goalie.

First off, there were a total of 18 goalies in the league who played at least 20 games this season and had a save % above .920. Of those 18, 4 didn't even make the playoffs. 2 of those goalies who didn't make the playoffs are Sabres. That means that at least 2 teams of the 16 who made the playoffs had goalies with below .920 save percentages.

Let's go for one of the higher Sv% goalies. We don't need to discuss the teams who have goalies below  playoffs or not. Just say no to all of them... easy and I feel better already.

There were / are 4 goalies in the playoffs with LOWER save percentages than Ramo did this season including Rinne, Lehtonen, Howard and Niemi. Goalies who are often touted as starters or that people think should be upgrades on Ramo who had worse sv% than Ramo last season include Bernier, Gustavsson, Hutchison and Pavelec.

Please.. We don't want inferior goalies with inferior numbers... Who cares who had worse numbers than Ramo.. His were not that good...

Now I do believe that the Flames need to get better goaltending overall or at least should. That being said, Ramo's numbers include his slow start where he had no real idea where he fit with the Flames and had little faith in him from coaching. Once he was the sure starter, his numbers came up. Is Ramo the type of goalie you win the Stanley cup with? not likely, but he is a starter in the league.

Again lets not try to candy coat poor numbers.. I don't want spions on Ramo's numbers to make him look better... This is not school where they have to pass students to meet a quota thing. This is lets get a good or better goalie who will put up regular good numbers and perform in the playoffs. Two of ytour goalies are same team. Highest scoring team(1st) who masked their poor goaltending(20th) in goals against.

I think that if the Flames can get a starting goalie who is definitely ready, on the cheap, then you go for it. IF the Flames can re-sign Ramo to a 2.5 mil 1 year prove it contract to buy time for Gillies and / or MacDonald plus sign Ortio to a 1.5 mil 1 year prove it, then you do it. If Gillies or MacDonald pull a rabbit out and kill it in training camp, at the lowish contracts, both Ortio and Ramo would be easy trades based on last years play alone.

I wouldn't be disappointed to see the goaltending change, nor would I be disappointed seeing a Ramo, Ortio tandem for another year.

Please no. They did not get it done this year. Our guys deserve better. Ramo may not even recover with his type of injury and you are penciling him in as okay to start for us.. Just say no.. Lets find better...

Teams can be successful with average goaltending if they can have solid D and O to make up for it.

We didn't get the D to perform well enough. What we hoped for from our D(supposedly among the best D in the league) never materialized.

There are the odd teams that can get by with average goaltending. We are not one. We need more/better. We don't want top be average  repeaqt after me.. We want better... We need better... 

Just say NO. Lets find better.

[rickross]

I think it's be safe to assume with BT at the Worlds he's paying close attention to some of the goalies on the national teams. If he can't trade for a starting netminder at the draft or pick one up during free agency then we could see them look for outside the NHL for help again.

[cccsberg]

Playing 1b for your home team at same money vs being traded to a Canadian team (CDN taxes) or some other team not a contender.  Generally speaking, he would lose net salary coming to Canada.  I can't speak to the player's mindset, but a new team with less salary sounds like a reason to stay put.  If he values money versus opportunity that is.

The tax situation varies greatly depending on which State or Province he actually works in. In any case since he is paid in US$ and considering exchange rates, he'd have a massive raise coming to Canada due to that alone.

[jjgallow]

well......Lehtonin's available...

[cross16]

I am just going to throw this into the mix as an overall comment on goaltending and people can take the information as they will. This may have already been said, but it takes repeating for those who are ultra focused on grabbing a top goalie.

First off, there were a total of 18 goalies in the league who played at least 20 games this season and had a save % above .920. Of those 18, 4 didn't even make the playoffs. 2 of those goalies who didn't make the playoffs are Sabres. That means that at least 2 teams of the 16 who made the playoffs had goalies with below .920 save percentages.

There were / are 4 goalies in the playoffs with LOWER save percentages than Ramo did this season including Rinne, Lehtonen, Howard and Niemi. Goalies who are often touted as starters or that people think should be upgrades on Ramo who had worse sv% than Ramo last season include Bernier, Gustavsson, Hutchison and Pavelec.

Now I do believe that the Flames need to get better goaltending overall or at least should. That being said, Ramo's numbers include his slow start where he had no real idea where he fit with the Flames and had little faith in him from coaching. Once he was the sure starter, his numbers came up. Is Ramo the type of goalie you win the Stanley cup with? not likely, but he is a starter in the league.

I think that if the Flames can get a starting goalie who is definitely ready, on the cheap, then you go for it. IF the Flames can re-sign Ramo to a 2.5 mil 1 year prove it contract to buy time for Gillies and / or MacDonald plus sign Ortio to a 1.5 mil 1 year prove it, then you do it. If Gillies or MacDonald pull a rabbit out and kill it in training camp, at the lowish contracts, both Ortio and Ramo would be easy trades based on last years play alone.

I wouldn't be disappointed to see the goaltending change, nor would I be disappointed seeing a Ramo, Ortio tandem for another year.

Teams can be successful with average goaltending if they can have solid D and O to make up for it.

 

I agree in theory, but I would argue that its much more difficult to build a team to that point then it is to just acquire a higher end goalie.  If Ramo didn't tear his ACL i would be more interested but keep in mind that for 3 years in a row now Ramo has started slow. Sure we can throw out excuses like Berra or HIller or the 3 goalie system but the reality is he starts slow, so it make its really tough to bank on him as a "starter" when it takes him a month or more to get to that level. Doubles the problem when you don't have the depth in behind him.

 

So while I do agree you can theoretically building a successful team by only relying on average goaltending i would prefer not to. I don't think its going to be difficult or overly expensive for the Flames to find goaltending this summer. 

[Flyerfan52]

The tax situation varies greatly depending on which State or Province he actually works in. In any case since he is paid in US$ and considering exchange rates, he'd have a massive raise coming to Canada due to that alone.

It depends on the cost of living in a particular province vs. the states as well. The exchange rate doesn't necessarily make up the difference.

US $s made in the US usually buy more there than in Canada. That's why cross border shopping is usually north to south.

[bosn111]

Thank you for the replies.

It was not my intention to pump up Ramo's stats, nor to omit information on him. As I said, he is a starting goalie at the NHL level as based on his stats. I also said he is not the goalie to take the Flames to the cup. The point of my post was to show that 1 more season with the Ramo / Ortio combo would not be the worst thing in the world if they are signed to low contracts which would allow more money to be spent on higher end forwards. In a year, there is a chance that Gillies could be ready.

I think the Flames would do better with an improved goalie situation, but Ramo and Ortio returning would not be the worst option. That was the basis of my post.

[DirtyDeeds]

Thank you for the replies.

It was not my intention to pump up Ramo's stats, nor to omit information on him. As I said, he is a starting goalie at the NHL level as based on his stats. I also said he is not the goalie to take the Flames to the cup. The point of my post was to show that 1 more season with the Ramo / Ortio combo would not be the worst thing in the world if they are signed to low contracts which would allow more money to be spent on higher end forwards. In a year, there is a chance that Gillies could be ready.

I think the Flames would do better with an improved goalie situation, but Ramo and Ortio returning would not be the worst option. That was the basis of my post.

1. Are  you willing to gamble and put the teams window back a year if Gilles is not ready by next year?
2. As a GM can you say for sure Gilles will be the guy?
3. What if he never makes it to NHL?
4. What if he suffers another injury that sets him back another year.. or two?
5. At what point do you say we can't just keep plugging the holes with goalies that will make do until?
6. Goalies have historically taken longer to mature and become NHL ready. More than Forwards and more than D, so what if it takes him 4-5 years to be ready? are you going to plug the hole each year until he is ready?

[Kulstad]

Watching tonight's NAS/SJS game, I wonder what it would take to get RInne out of NAS.  There was absolutely no defensive support for him, I don't blame him for destroying his stick after the 5th goal.  He played the puck, rushed the zone a few times, kept the Preds in the game early, but he can't do everything himself.  Put him behind our D, and let's see what happens.

 

EDIT: Nevermind.  Just checked General Fanager, and he's a $7M cap hit through 2018-19   http://www.generalfanager.com/players/1203

[conundrumed]

A Lehtonen buyout is possible, which would get him for us cheap. We're still buying time to "fix" the position.

[robrob1974]

A Lehtonen buyout is possible, which would get him for us cheap. We're still buying time to "fix" the position.

Guys still sign for close to what they're worth. Look at Lecavallier, Richards, etc. What would Lehtonen be worth open market?

[Carty]

I don't blame him for destroying his stick after the 5th goal.

 

[bosn111]

What goalie are you going to get next season who fits within cap restrictions that doesn't cost part of the core and is not a risk? You aren't getting Rinne, Price, Quick or Lundquist. Fleury and Murray are stretches at best. Elliot likely won't fit the cap or be cheap to acquire. Any goalie you get will possibly be filler and get replaced next season. You are taking a chance regardless of what you do.

Do you suggest grabbing some one else's prospects and hope they can be better than Ramo and Ortio? What if they aren't better? What if no team is willing to trade their prospects? What if better D on the Flames doesn't help a goalie's stats? We can what if all we want, the point remains the same. Ramo and Ortio have both played enough games at the NHL level to prove that they can be starters in the league.

Tell me a goalie that is definitely an upgrade, is available and is the right cost without any questions at all! It simply isn't possible. You don't know what will happen any more than I do so don't get bent out of shape when I point to a possibility that may happen and wouldn't be horrible if push comes to shove. What ifs are everywhere, can't escape them. There are no guarantees so all your what ifs go for every goalie out there.

[MAC331]

What goalie are you going to get next season who fits within cap restrictions that doesn't cost part of the core and is not a risk? You aren't getting Rinne, Price, Quick or Lundquist. Fleury and Murray are stretches at best. Elliot likely won't fit the cap or be cheap to acquire. Any goalie you get will possibly be filler and get replaced next season. You are taking a chance regardless of what you do.

Do you suggest grabbing some one else's prospects and hope they can be better than Ramo and Ortio? What if they aren't better? What if no team is willing to trade their prospects? What if better D on the Flames doesn't help a goalie's stats? We can what if all we want, the point remains the same. Ramo and Ortio have both played enough games at the NHL level to prove that they can be starters in the league.

Tell me a goalie that is definitely an upgrade, is available and is the right cost without any questions at all! It simply isn't possible. You don't know what will happen any more than I do so don't get bent out of shape when I point to a possibility that may happen and wouldn't be horrible if push comes to shove. What ifs are everywhere, can't escape them. There are no guarantees so all your what ifs go for every goalie out there.

What you say is very true. I actually could see BT bringing in two goalies. The ones mentioned in trade are Andersen ANA, Vasilevskiy TBL and Kuemper MIN. There are some UFAs worth some consideration as well. I would add Jake Allen STL and now Halak NYI to the trade mix. Any goalie has to play into being a great goalie, we shouldn't expect instant miracles by dropping anyone in the net. It is a team game and as a team we must get better.