Goaltending

[kehatch]

The most likely scenario is Parsons goes to the ECHL. He needs a season with a lot of starts, not time sitting in the bench. 

 

It won't shock me to see the Flames bring in a vet to play BU in the AHL. Wolf needs a mentor, and the Flames need an option of Markstrom gets hurt and I can't see them comfortable with any combination of Vlader, Fox, Parsons, Werner in the NHL. 

 

I hope by mid season they will be. But given Parsons issues to date, Wolf's first year in the AHL, and Vlader lack of NHL experience I think they would like another option. 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

The most likely scenario is Parsons goes to the ECHL. He needs a season with a lot of starts, not time sitting in the bench. 

 

It won't shock me to see the Flames bring in a vet to play BU in the AHL. Wolf needs a mentor, and the Flames need an option of Markstrom gets hurt and I can't see them comfortable with any combination of Vlader, Fox, Parsons, Werner in the NHL. 

 

I hope by mid season they will be. But given Parsons issues to date, Wolf's first year in the AHL, and Vlader lack of NHL experience I think they would like another option. 

 

Agreed with that bolded, although I would love to be wrong.   The problem of having too many strong goalie prospects is a problem we really need to have.  But likely won't for a while.

 

I see the issue of the Markstrom backup, and I Would agree except that I am a bit higher on Vladar.   Of his 5 NHL games, he looked good, and only actually suffered one blowout where the whole team fell apart.  He is a risk but so is almost anyone you bring in at that price.

 

Does Wolf need a mentor?  At the NHL level yes.   At the AHL level I would like to think he gets that more from the coaching staff.   Ideally he just runs with it and never looks back.  That's the dream, we shall see.

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Agreed with that bolded, although I would love to be wrong.   The problem of having too many strong goalie prospects is a problem we really need to have.  But likely won't for a while.

 

I see the issue of the Markstrom backup, and I Would agree except that I am a bit higher on Vladar.   Of his 5 NHL games, he looked good, and only actually suffered one blowout where the whole team fell apart.  He is a risk but so is almost anyone you bring in at that price.

 

Does Wolf need a mentor?  At the NHL level yes.   At the AHL level I would like to think he gets that more from the coaching staff.   Ideally he just runs with it and never looks back.  That's the dream, we shall see.

 

I think it would be a mistake to give Parsons the ECHL treatment.

Give him the best coaching available to a prospect.

The AHL plays the majority of games in B2B sets.

Fri/Sat, Sat/Sun.

Whatever two goalie are in Stockton will split games almost equal.

 

[jjgallow]

25 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think it would be a mistake to give Parsons the ECHL treatment.

Give him the best coaching available to a prospect.

The AHL plays the majority of games in B2B sets.

Fri/Sat, Sat/Sun.

Whatever two goalie are in Stockton will split games almost equal.

 

 

You would need to trade him

[kehatch]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Agreed with that bolded, although I would love to be wrong.   The problem of having too many strong goalie prospects is a problem we really need to have.  But likely won't for a while.

 

I see the issue of the Markstrom backup, and I Would agree except that I am a bit higher on Vladar.   Of his 5 NHL games, he looked good, and only actually suffered one blowout where the whole team fell apart.  He is a risk but so is almost anyone you bring in at that price.

 

Does Wolf need a mentor?  At the NHL level yes.   At the AHL level I would like to think he gets that more from the coaching staff.   Ideally he just runs with it and never looks back.  That's the dream, we shall see.

 

I like Vlader as a back up as well and I hope the Flames stick with him (I think they will). But I don't love the idea of Vlader / Wolf if Markstrom gets hurt. I won't be surprised if they find a veteran back up for Wolf in the AHL. It's a bit more assurance if there is an injury, it gives Wolf another resource to help him acclimate to being a pro, and it's a guy you don't mind sitting more often then not because you don't need to worry about development. 

 

Maybe that is supposed to be Werner. I can't say I know much about him but a scan of the stat sheet doesn't make me confident. But I have never seen him play so that might not be a fair assessment. 

[kehatch]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think it would be a mistake to give Parsons the ECHL treatment.

Give him the best coaching available to a prospect.

The AHL plays the majority of games in B2B sets.

Fri/Sat, Sat/Sun.

Whatever two goalie are in Stockton will split games almost equal.

 

 

I get the theory, but I don't agree in practice. Most of the top NHL goalies that grew up in the AHL got the bulk of the AHL starts. I also can't find many examples of two prospects being co developed on one team. They are probably out there, but in a light look I didn't find any. 

 

Kuemper is probably the closest. But that was a situation where he was getting 20 ish AHL starts a season behind a a higher ranked prospect. He is a bit of an exception in a lot of different ways, and not the template any team would use to develop future prospects. 

 

Parsons has had 4 seasons of pro now and his highest GP was 28. He has struggled with injury and hasn't been good in any of those seasons. I don't think the Flames pull the eject button yet, but the priority needs to be developing Wolf.

 

Putting him in the AHL with Wolf is a mistake in my opinion. It disrupts Wolf's development, and it deprives Parsons of the one thing he really needs (consistent starts). 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I get the theory, but I don't agree in practice. Most of the top NHL goalies that grew up in the AHL got the bulk of the AHL starts. I also can't find many examples of two prospects being co developed on one team. They are probably out there, but in a light look I didn't find any. 

 

Kuemper is probably the closest. But that was a situation where he was getting 20 ish AHL starts a season behind a a higher ranked prospect. He is a bit of an exception in a lot of different ways, and not the template any team would use to develop future prospects. 

 

Parsons has had 4 seasons of pro now and his highest GP was 28. He has struggled with injury and hasn't been good in any of those seasons. I don't think the Flames pull the eject button yet, but the priority needs to be developing Wolf.

 

Putting him in the AHL with Wolf is a mistake in my opinion. It disrupts Wolf's development, and it deprives Parsons of the one thing he really needs (consistent starts). 

 

I completely agree with all of this.   Co-developing rarely works (on the same team).  The Flames have done a LOT of it and never produced any meaningful NHL talent from it.     I do also sort of understand where @travel_dude is coming from, referencing the ECHL as a mistake.

 

I would like to add that imho the ECHL is not a death sentence by any means.   There was a time that it was.   Maybe 10 years ago if a goalie went to the ECHL they never came back.   But nowadays, many many times we've seen elite talent go to the ECHL, find their game, and work their way back up all the way to NHL starter.    The gap between the ECHL and the AHL has narrowed significantly, especially for goalies.   The ECHL has lots of great shooters who maybe just don't have the skating or size to advance.   I would like to see him dominate there and get his confidence back.  If he can do that, dominating in the AHL is not a huge leap.  Parsons still has time for this.   All he has to do is show steady improvement.    

 

Parsons has not yet shown that he can be exceptional in the ECHL.  Imho, he needs to accomplish this because if he can't be exceptional there it's not going to happen in the AHL or NHL consistently.     We know he's capable of it, that's not the issue.    To me, a very good outcome is:

 

Wolf finds his game at the NHL level

Parsons shows that he can be a top ECHL goaltender and thus worth a rethink

 

Werner, I did not expect.  But to me this indicates the Flames intend for Parsons to be in the ECHL.   Whichever of them makes the AHL, they should be a clear backup until they force that issue.   Werner does not excite.   But, to his credit, Colorado's AHL team is a mess.   So his numbers "may" not properly reflect his ability.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I get the theory, but I don't agree in practice. Most of the top NHL goalies that grew up in the AHL got the bulk of the AHL starts. I also can't find many examples of two prospects being co developed on one team. They are probably out there, but in a light look I didn't find any. 

 

Kuemper is probably the closest. But that was a situation where he was getting 20 ish AHL starts a season behind a a higher ranked prospect. He is a bit of an exception in a lot of different ways, and not the template any team would use to develop future prospects. 

 

Parsons has had 4 seasons of pro now and his highest GP was 28. He has struggled with injury and hasn't been good in any of those seasons. I don't think the Flames pull the eject button yet, but the priority needs to be developing Wolf.

 

Putting him in the AHL with Wolf is a mistake in my opinion. It disrupts Wolf's development, and it deprives Parsons of the one thing he really needs (consistent starts). 

 

Whether it's Parsons or Werner as the other tender in Stockton, he will get close to half the starts.  

It's not a question of what I think is right, just the way the games are played.

Playing Friday, then expecting an AHL rookie goalie to play the next day seems a little risky.

 

I don't know what we have in Parsons.  Played one game last year, last games in the AHL before that in 18/19.

Lots of goalies take time to turn into something.

Probably never a NHL starter at this point, but who knows what a positive reinforcement does.

 

The ECHL is not a death sentence.

I would like to see them rotate Parson with Werner, so both are evaluated properly.

 

[travel_dude]

I should add that I have no idea of what the plan is for Werner.

An interesting comp between him and Darth Vladar below:

https://thewincolumn.ca/2021/08/18/dan-vladar-vs-adam-werner-evaluating-flames-backup-goalie-options/

 

Parsons may be facing a tough battle with Wolf and Werner to get pro starts.

If BT is leaning more towards Werner as a development option, then Parson will play less games wherever he goes.

I think they will cycle Parsons and Werner between the AHL to get them lots of games, but I can't tell you which one they remain high on.

 

[kehatch]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Whether it's Parsons or Werner as the other tender in Stockton, he will get close to half the starts.  

It's not a question of what I think is right, just the way the games are played.

Playing Friday, then expecting an AHL rookie goalie to play the next day seems a little risky.

 

I don't know what we have in Parsons.  Played one game last year, last games in the AHL before that in 18/19.

Lots of goalies take time to turn into something.

Probably never a NHL starter at this point, but who knows what a positive reinforcement does.

 

The ECHL is not a death sentence.

I would like to see them rotate Parson with Werner, so both are evaluated properly.

 

 

It's very possible Wolf will end up splitting starts and only get about half. But that will likely be related to performance, not the schedule. There are plenty of AHL goalies that get two thirds or more of the starts. 

 

Putting two prospects on the same team with the expectation of them splitting starts isn't a good idea in my opinion, and I can't find any examples of when a team did that with success (though again, they might be there but I just can't find them.) The template is giving the prospect (assuming they are performing) plenty of starts. Has something changed this season in the AHL that would suggest things should be different now? 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

It's very possible Wolf will end up splitting starts and only get about half. But that will likely be related to performance, not the schedule. There are plenty of AHL goalies that get two thirds or more of the starts. 

 

Putting two prospects on the same team with the expectation of them splitting starts isn't a good idea in my opinion, and I can't find any examples of when a team did that with success (though again, they might be there but I just can't find them.) The template is giving the prospect (assuming they are performing) plenty of starts. Has something changed this season in the AHL that would suggest things should be different now? 

 

I was looking at the AHL schedule for the Heat.

https://stocktonheat.com/schedule/

It leans heavily towards 3 games per week, where two are B2B.

Yes, it does lend towards 2/3 going to one guy.

 

We had Gillies and Rittich working a mostly 50/50 split, even if you don't consider that Rittich was a prospect at the time.

 

I have no idea how they will manage 3 goalies.

You don't want one prospect removed from the goalie development coach for the whole season.

Unless you have given up on them and you are waiting for them to become a stud in the AHL before you bring them back.

I realize it isn't an all or nothing thing.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I was looking at the AHL schedule for the Heat.

https://stocktonheat.com/schedule/

It leans heavily towards 3 games per week, where two are B2B.

Yes, it does lend towards 2/3 going to one guy.

 

We had Gillies and Rittich working a mostly 50/50 split, even if you don't consider that Rittich was a prospect at the time.

 

I have no idea how they will manage 3 goalies.

You don't want one prospect removed from the goalie development coach for the whole season.

Unless you have given up on them and you are waiting for them to become a stud in the AHL before you bring them back.

I realize it isn't an all or nothing thing.

 

A 2/3 would be good, and honestly with Wolf at 19 I would say he's more suited to doing B2Bs than Kipper was at 30, which everyone was all for.    I think the Flames/we have a lot backwards, we do things with our prospects that should only be done in the NHL, and things with our NHL starters that should only be done with prospects.  We're not looking for an all-time AHL record as the goal, we want minutes and experience and development.   Granted, injury reduction admittedly is a factor but I think that comes down more to protecting the goalie's crease.  And yeah if something doesn't feel right you take the night, the week off.    

 

I know we have a lot of Rittich fans and it is definitely a feel good story and I get it, but I just don't think we can use Gillies and Rittich as a successful example of codevelopment.   We're talking about abandoning what was one of the world's most elite goaltending prospects within an extremely short period of time, and then giving another goalie all the development minutes so that they can become a failed NHL backup.   Yeah I know those aren't popular facts but they are facts.

 

2/3 would be a LOT better.

 

And yeah, if one of these other guys surprises, then you have a great problem on your hands.

[cross16]

I haven't given up on Parsons either but I think it's important to note that they essentially had to re sign him. They needed to give him a qualifying offer in order to meet the expansion draft rules so him coming back I think has more to do with that than anything else. Unless Parsons changes the narrative, which he could, I don't see him getting the "prospect" treatment anymore. Wolf is their guy and they know it. 

 

I personally like how the Flames are set up in goal right now. My NHL depth chart would be:

Markstrom

Vladar

Werner

Wolf

Parsons

 

I don't think there is a need for any other additions. Vladar and Werner have both flashed ability at multiple levels so in the event of an injury i'm very comfortable with running with those 2 guys over a vet. What is a vet going to give you that those 2 can't? I don't see another goalie being brought it and for the first time in a long time I really like the looks of the depth chart for the Flames. It's one of the success stories of the offseason IMO. 

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

I haven't given up on Parsons either but I think it's important to note that they essentially had to re sign him. They needed to give him a qualifying offer in order to meet the expansion draft rules so him coming back I think has more to do with that than anything else. Unless Parsons changes the narrative, which he could, I don't see him getting the "prospect" treatment anymore. Wolf is their guy and they know it. 

 

I personally like how the Flames are set up in goal right now. My NHL depth chart would be:

Markstrom

Vladar

Werner

Wolf

Parsons

 

I don't think there is a need for any other additions. Vladar and Werner have both flashed ability at multiple levels so in the event of an injury i'm very comfortable with running with those 2 guys over a vet. What is a vet going to give you that those 2 can't? I don't see another goalie being brought it and for the first time in a long time I really like the looks of the depth chart for the Flames. It's one of the success stories of the offseason IMO. 

Totally agree. Love those adds. Very much needed, the G prospect cupboard was essentially:

Wolf

 

 

 

 

Parsons

[jjgallow]

 

One of Askarov, Wallstedt, or Cossa was what was needed to secure our future.   The depth is appreciated all the same.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

One of Askarov, Wallstedt, or Cossa was what was needed to secure our future.   The depth is appreciated all the same.

Not necessarily. Need solid fwd depth too, so Coronato, Zary and Pelletier are important prospects too. Getting Andersson, Valimaki, maybe Mackey, Kyl were important adds. Fox woulda been gigantic, but whaddya do? Fwd depth was shaky, but it's decent now. Vladar and Werner are nice adds to what was looking brutal, and a little further along.

Can't have it all, where would you put it?lol

I'm a fan of our prospect pool now, as opposed to 2 yrs ago. It was looking pretty rough.

When Askarov, Wallstedt and Cossa are Vasilevsky, I'll believe you. I don't see it from my limited viewing. Askarov looks total sketch from what I've seen.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Not necessarily. Need solid fwd depth too, so Coronato, Zary and Pelletier are important prospects too. Getting Andersson, Valimaki, maybe Mackey, Kyl were important adds. Fox woulda been gigantic, but whaddya do? Fwd depth was shaky, but it's decent now. Vladar and Werner are nice adds to what was looking brutal, and a little further along.

Can't have it all, where would you put it?lol

I'm a fan of our prospect pool now, as opposed to 2 yrs ago. It was looking pretty rough.

When Askarov, Wallstedt and Cossa are Vasilevsky, I'll believe you. I don't see it from my limited viewing. Askarov looks total sketch from what I've seen.

 

IMHO the only goalie they brought in who can be thought of as a legit NHL prospect is Vladar.   That's a start, anyway.

 

Those three goalies don't all have to become Vasilevsky for it to make sense to take goaltending seriously.   Realistically One or Two of them will be franchise goalies minimum.    Three is asking a lot and isn't really necessary for the point being made.

 

Outside of that, I'll save my usual rant.  We won't have to wait for those goalies to mature before you lose it on the Flames.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Not necessarily. Need solid fwd depth too, so Coronato, Zary and Pelletier are important prospects too. Getting Andersson, Valimaki, maybe Mackey, Kyl were important adds. Fox woulda been gigantic, but whaddya do? Fwd depth was shaky, but it's decent now. Vladar and Werner are nice adds to what was looking brutal, and a little further along.

Can't have it all, where would you put it?lol

I'm a fan of our prospect pool now, as opposed to 2 yrs ago. It was looking pretty rough.

When Askarov, Wallstedt and Cossa are Vasilevsky, I'll believe you. I don't see it from my limited viewing. Askarov looks total sketch from what I've seen.

 

 

Zary and Pelletier both are possibly LWers. We love those. But hopefully Zary does pan out as a middling C as we expect him to... 
 

Saros has made it to a starting position and isn't he 5'11"? 
I think the biggest thing is staying healthy when that small? I mean, you look at Parsons. But that goes with any goalie. The only difference I see is that if he's smaller, he'd have to move a lot more to cover more holes. Was Quick's injuries due to just getting injured, or having to be a more athletic goalie to make up for being a smaller goalie? 

 

I think that Quick getting injured probably forces LA into a rebuild sooner than they'd have liked. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

IMHO the only goalie they brought in who can be thought of as a legit NHL prospect is Vladar.   That's a start, anyway.

 

Those three goalies don't all have to become Vasilevsky for it to make sense to take goaltending seriously.   Realistically One or Two of them will be franchise goalies minimum.    Three is asking a lot and isn't really necessary for the point being made.

 

Outside of that, I'll save my usual rant.  We won't have to wait for those goalies to mature before you lose it on the Flames.

 

Realistically, one of them (Ask, Cossa, Wally) may develop into a franchise goalie.

Or they become "the best goalie not in the NHL".

It will be interesting to see what impact these so-called franchise goalies have on teams like Nashville, Detroit and Minny.

 

[jjgallow]

Coronato is the only forward prospect worth mentioning.    Pelletier/Zary are not that good.     If I was going to pick our 2nd best forward prospect, it wouldn't be either of them, it would be Ryan Francis.   

 

Take that as a positive or negative sign, either way I'll take it offline and start a thread on him.  We might as well

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Realistically, one of them (Ask, Cossa, Wally) may develop into a franchise goalie.

Or they become "the best goalie not in the NHL".

It will be interesting to see what impact these so-called franchise goalies have on teams like Nashville, Detroit and Minny.

 

Well we just saw that with Tampa so not much mystery there.

 

Of the three, I trust Detroit the most to get it right.    Nobody's going to be laughing at Detroit much longer where Cossa turns out or not.

 

Seriously though goaltending is important and it shows which teams do and don't understand this

[kehatch]

33 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Coronato is the only forward prospect worth mentioning.    Pelletier/Zary are not that good.     If I was going to pick our 2nd best forward prospect, it wouldn't be either of them, it would be Ryan Francis.   

 

Take that as a positive or negative sign, either way I'll take it offline and start a thread on him.  We might as well

 

I would rank both of those guys ahead of Coronato. Coronato was a mid round first in a pretty weak draft. It's easy to get hung up on the numbers, but he needs to translate it to pro. 

 

Pelletier isn't going to be a top offensive guy. But he has that two way game that makes him a valuable roster addition. Speed might hold him back, I guess we will see. I won't be shocked to see him play some NHL games this season. 

[kehatch]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

I haven't given up on Parsons either but I think it's important to note that they essentially had to re sign him. They needed to give him a qualifying offer in order to meet the expansion draft rules so him coming back I think has more to do with that than anything else. Unless Parsons changes the narrative, which he could, I don't see him getting the "prospect" treatment anymore. Wolf is their guy and they know it. 

 

I personally like how the Flames are set up in goal right now. My NHL depth chart would be:

Markstrom

Vladar

Werner

Wolf

Parsons

 

I don't think there is a need for any other additions. Vladar and Werner have both flashed ability at multiple levels so in the event of an injury i'm very comfortable with running with those 2 guys over a vet. What is a vet going to give you that those 2 can't? I don't see another goalie being brought it and for the first time in a long time I really like the looks of the depth chart for the Flames. It's one of the success stories of the offseason IMO. 

 

I am glad to hear you are high on Werner.  Its not that I am down on him, I just can't remember every seeing him play and a short look at the start sheet shows a guy with mediocre numbers and not a lot of games played per season.  

 

I still think they have to be thinking about a veteran.  Outside of Markstrom they have 8 games played at the NHL level.  That said, tough to find an NHL guy that will play in the AHL, and I think Vlader is their back-up, so you will likely be right. 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I would rank both of those guys ahead of Coronato. Coronato was a mid round first in a pretty weak draft. It's easy to get hung up on the numbers, but he needs to translate it to pro. 

 

Pelletier isn't going to be a top offensive guy. But he has that two way game that makes him a valuable roster addition. Speed might hold him back, I guess we will see. I won't be shocked to see him play some NHL games this season. 

 

In terms of readiness, yes.   And I agree that it was a weak draft for forwards, which is why it got brought up here (it wasn't a weak draft for goalies).

 

So I'm not going to go out of my way to stand up for Coronato when there were better choices to make.    On the other hand, your own description of Pelletier's ceiling is someone who is quite readily available anytime for a third rounder or less (depending on contract).     And we're comparing that to a recent first rounder, weak draft or not, so I still have to go with:    Wallstedt > Coronato > Francis >  Pelletier/Zary.

[pikey7883]

19 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

In terms of readiness, yes.   And I agree that it was a weak draft for forwards, which is why it got brought up here (it wasn't a weak draft for goalies).

 

So I'm not going to go out of my way to stand up for Coronato when there were better choices to make.    On the other hand, your own description of Pelletier's ceiling is someone who is quite readily available anytime for a third rounder or less (depending on contract).     And we're comparing that to a recent first rounder, weak draft or not, so I still have to go with:    Wallstedt > Coronato > Francis >  Pelletier/Zary.

I have said for awhile, that the pairings I want to be developed in the AHL are Pelltier with Zary and a RW, maybe that could be Coronato. The other that already had a good year last year was Ruzicka with Phillips and a LW. For me Zary and Pelltier paired with a good RW have the potential to be a very good 2nd line. And I hope we have the chance to see Ruzicka and Phillips jump up here and there to play on a more exciting 4th line with Looch this year, because I think they have the potential to be a good 3rd line. That being said, I will agree with you that we don’t really have many game breakers, however, to put Francis ahead of the others is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. He is not a point per game in the Q, and his EV strength Primary points are less than 80% in Junior which means (IMO) he is more of a line rider than a line driver.