Goaltending

[robrob74]

11 hours ago, GM_3300 said:

I would be more inclined to have Talbot at 1.75M on a 1year keeping it short term and Rittich at 2.5M on a 3 year deal. This is how I would position our Goaltending for now.

 

My bet is that our numbers work out to what we’ve paid for goal. I see Rittich and Talbot splitting the pot. 

 

Will Rittich’s camp look for Koskinen kind of numbers though?

[rickross]

So are ppl mad if Smitty is simply resigned? He did stand on his head in the playoffs. I’m iffy on Talbot, he never seemed to be able to regain his confidence in Edmonton. Hard to blame him, but we could be in trouble if he cannot regain his 2017 form. Gillies is a ways away but I have this weird feeling he’s another Devyn Dubnyk in the making...or not!  If Smitty signs with the Oilers it’s a bit of a problem as he has intimidate knowledge of our defensive and offensive schemes.

[Horsman1]

6 hours ago, rickross said:

So are ppl mad if Smitty is simply resigned? He did stand on his head in the playoffs. I’m iffy on Talbot, he never seemed to be able to regain his confidence in Edmonton. Hard to blame him, but we could be in trouble if he cannot regain his 2017 form. Gillies is a ways away but I have this weird feeling he’s another Devyn Dubnyk in the making...or not!  If Smitty signs with the Oilers it’s a bit of a problem as he has intimidate knowledge of our defensive and offensive schemes.

We only play the oilers a few times a year.. I don't think Smitty's knowledge of  systems after one year will amount to much. There' has to be changes with the structure this year if only due to the fact we are cap maxed out so no new players..which leaves system changes

[Thebrewcrew]

10 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

My bet is that our numbers work out to what we’ve paid for goal. I see Rittich and Talbot splitting the pot. 

 

Will Rittich’s camp look for Koskinen kind of numbers though?

Luckily for the Flames, if Rittich takes them to arbitration they can’t use the Koskinen deal as it was signed as he was heading to UFA. They have to use contracts signed by RFA’s as comparables. My guess is they look at Martin Jones 3x3 with SJ and the Grubauer 3.33x3 as comparables 

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, rickross said:

So are ppl mad if Smitty is simply resigned? He did stand on his head in the playoffs. I’m iffy on Talbot, he never seemed to be able to regain his confidence in Edmonton. Hard to blame him, but we could be in trouble if he cannot regain his 2017 form. Gillies is a ways away but I have this weird feeling he’s another Devyn Dubnyk in the making...or not!  If Smitty signs with the Oilers it’s a bit of a problem as he has intimidate knowledge of our defensive and offensive schemes.

 

Let me say this.  Smith never rebounded after his injury 2 years ago and as a 37-38 year old goalie, he never will.

He played a lot of games against non playoff teams to regain some confidence.

He wasn't any kind of miracle worker in the playoffs.

Yes, he made tons of saves, but he let in a lot of shots glove side.

No, he's not the only reason we lost.

 

I don't think people are mad that we are looking at Talbot.

If anything it's the cycle of retreads.

Talbot isn't that bad even playing behind a meh team.

Better than Smith.

But we are looking at another one to two year stopgap again.

We are unwilling and unable to go after Vezina goalies.

Lehner will be available.

Bob is available.

Some of the goalies that had good years are available and we won't be able to sign them.

 

My approach would be to hedge my bets.

Sure, sign Talbot to a one year deal.

Immediate security, somewhat.

Trade for Jarry.

Carry three goalies going into camp.

Roster deadliine day make that decision about Jarry.

Either carry 3 or waive him if he doesn;t look ready.

90% of the teams won;t even consider claiming him, unless they still have a hole.

 

If we decide to carry 3 goalies, it has drawbacks.

We can;t healthy scratch 2F.

Then again, those healthy scratches rarely get games unless someone is injured.

[cccsberg]

On 6/28/2019 at 9:20 AM, The_People1 said:

 

Why so salty recently?

I agree.  After the disappointment of the playoffs and no significant changes since, many are on edge, me included.  Personally I’m avoiding most threads, but occasionally a post making outrageous/false claims, or someone posturing as a 20/20 rear view know-it-all just requires a response.  With the combination of a hugely dampened trade market on the one hand because of a lowered Cap via expectation, and a pile of greedy RFAs looking to set new precedent for first new contracts, which will upset the Cap situation even more.... on top of the frustration of needing two separate teams for playoff success due to arbitrary reffing changes... it’s a hard time to be a fan.  Looking forward to putting aside hockey for a few months after another week or so...

[cccsberg]

21 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Hey, 

 

I totally get the accountability thing.   Many times on here I've held staff accountable and people say "can't just blame staff".

 

But this is a numbers thing.

 

You cannot, in all serious, blame any single goaltending prospect for a 25-year failure to develop goaltending prospects.

 

You cannot even blame a single goaltender for any particular year.  Because if there is only one, management has totally failed already.

 

I can go through a list of dozens, and dozens, and dozens of failures.  And yes, at Least half of them, maybe 80%, were never going to make it in any system.    But odds dictate that at least 10-20% of them should have turned into something.     The data and history is overwhelming and systemic.  This is much bigger than any one tender.

Thanks for the reasonable post.  Unfortunately it is almost impossible to pinpoint if the goalie coach(es) are the problem or whether it’s the goalies themselves.  As for our current situation, the odd thing is our goalie coach has survived intact a couple of coaching purges, with continuing mixed results so it makes you wonder what goes on.  Personally I think the lack of real opportunity and trust from management plays as much in the goalies minds as any coaching.  That would be tough, but, hey there definitely is something to say about proving yourself first.  Not an easy problem.

 

Going forward, I’m with Rittich.  He was basically the starter last year and one of the top handful of NHL goalies before his injury.  It affected him and he never got back to the same level.  We don’t have the funds for a top name goalie, and I doubt whether Rittich isn’t already better.  I’d like to see Gillies as backup, but Talbot I like too.  Problem is, as I mentioned above....bringing in a new guy from outside doesn’t do much to enhance the minds of the other 4 guys we already have.  If we sign Talbot BT should trade Gillies to give him a fresh start elsewhere.

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Thanks for the reasonable post.  Unfortunately it is almost impossible to pinpoint if the goalie coach(es) are the problem or whether it’s the goalies themselves.  As for our current situation, the odd thing is our goalie coach has survived intact a couple of coaching purges, with continuing mixed results so it makes you wonder what goes on.  Personally I think the lack of real opportunity and trust from management plays as much in the goalies minds as any coaching.  That would be tough, but, hey there definitely is something to say about proving yourself first.  Not an easy problem.

 

The MS sidestory clouds the issue.

The Flames always have people's backs when off-ice issues are involved.

Whether their nice-guy way of dealing with things has anything to do with it or they perceive no problems.

That's the part I don't get.

BH and Gully both fired because of lack of results.

At least BH had a positive year.

Nothing development or coaching of goalies in the NHL has been positive.

 

Players are held accountable.

Hiller, Ramo, Ortio.....

Players are bought out....

 

Obviously we don't know the true picture.

If it's Talbot over Smith then that's at least a positive.

Talbot studied under King Henrik.

He might be able to pass on some tips.

 

[Cowtownguy]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Let me say this.  Smith never rebounded after his injury 2 years ago and as a 37-38 year old goalie, he never will.

He played a lot of games against non playoff teams to regain some confidence.

He wasn't any kind of miracle worker in the playoffs.

Yes, he made tons of saves, but he let in a lot of shots glove side.

No, he's not the only reason we lost.

I agree that his injury really impacted him and he has never quite been the same. This is not the same guy who used to be able to steal a game every now and then. He was never quite a Kipper, but he was a pretty solid tender. He should hang them up this year IMO.

[jjgallow]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The MS sidestory clouds the issue.

The Flames always have people's backs when off-ice issues are involved.

 

The Flames are a class act in this regards, yes.  But..   Maybe there is some Better way of having their back?   Scouting?  Operations?  Marketing?   Surely?

 

We talk a lot about how goaltending is a head game, a confidence game.   It's between the ears.

 

So is it the best decision, no matter how inspiring, to have someone battling constant depression to instill this?   Maybe as an experiment, but...I think we're past that stage.   Apologies in advance for my huge A-hole post.  I just really do wonder.

 

More to the point:  It's not working and has never worked.  Reasons aside.

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

The Flames are a class act in this regards, yes.  But..   Maybe there is some Better way of having their back?   Scouting?  Operations?  Marketing?   Surely?

 

We talk a lot about how goaltending is a head game, a confidence game.   It's between the ears.

 

So is it the best decision, no matter how inspiring, to have someone battling constant depression to instill this?   Maybe as an experiment, but...I think we're past that stage.   Apologies in advance for my huge A-hole post.  I just really do wonder.

 

More to the point:  It's not working and has never worked.  Reasons aside.

 

Yes, we can be heartless here at times, but we care about the team.

We just don't know what's going on.

It's no different saying that than what people say about Brodie's head not being in the game.

Sometimes business is business.

It seemed like JS made decisions this year based on what Smith wanted.

Or he let Smith decide what was best.

I know the coach like the playing the puck part, but is that the best thing to focus on?

Either way, there are decisions that need to be made that can't be hinged on a person failing health.

It would be different with a track record.

 

There are things we should be doing to go in a different direction.

We've made coaching changes.

We bring in new players.

We draft according to certain traits, but look at other things.

We've started to pay attention to fancy stats as a club.

 

Yet we can;t even look at past records of a goalie to predict what they will play with in a certain situation.

Smith loses a ton of games after a shutout.

Yet, that is the reason to play him again.

He has trouble with certain team's styles, yet we play him against those teams.

 

Those are goalie coach decisions.

Anyway, I'm done talking about JS.

I hope we can better develop goalies in spite of him being here.

If we are being honest, he needs to move into another area of Flames group.

 

[kehatch]

Between Rittich and Talbot the Flames should have competent goal tending for 6-million or less.  In a cap world that is a big win.  Plus, if Rittich learns how to keep it together down the stretch or Talbot returns to his not to distant form then the Flames can take a step past competent.  

 

Sure it isn't the Flames finding their Binnington/Holtby/Murray/Vasilevskiy.  But it is better then spending a bunch of assets or cap to also not find our Binnington/Holtby/Murray/Vasilevskiy.

[LouCifer]

11 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Let me say this.  Smith never rebounded after his injury 2 years ago and as a 37-38 year old goalie, he never will.

He played a lot of games against non playoff teams to regain some confidence.

He wasn't any kind of miracle worker in the playoffs.

Yes, he made tons of saves, but he let in a lot of shots glove side.

No, he's not the only reason we lost.

 

I don't think people are mad that we are looking at Talbot.

If anything it's the cycle of retreads.

Talbot isn't that bad even playing behind a meh team.

Better than Smith.

But we are looking at another one to two year stopgap again.

We are unwilling and unable to go after Vezina goalies.

Lehner will be available.

Bob is available.

Some of the goalies that had good years are available and we won't be able to sign them.

 

My approach would be to hedge my bets.

Sure, sign Talbot to a one year deal.

Immediate security, somewhat.

Trade for Jarry.

Carry three goalies going into camp.

Roster deadliine day make that decision about Jarry.

Either carry 3 or waive him if he doesn;t look ready.

90% of the teams won;t even consider claiming him, unless they still have a hole.

 

If we decide to carry 3 goalies, it has drawbacks.

We can;t healthy scratch 2F.

Then again, those healthy scratches rarely get games unless someone is injured.

 

I like the post. Agree on Jarry. 

 

I’m also wondering if we should be looking to pickup Zach Fucale (G). Age 24. Hasn’t had great numbers recently. Was a highly touted prospect. UFA currently because VGK didn’t qualify him... thinking he’s somebody who already has the skills and will refocus his career and bounce back after not getting a QO. 

[cccsberg]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

The Flames are a class act in this regards, yes.  But..   Maybe there is some Better way of having their back?   Scouting?  Operations?  Marketing?   Surely?

 

We talk a lot about how goaltending is a head game, a confidence game.   It's between the ears.

 

So is it the best decision, no matter how inspiring, to have someone battling constant depression to instill this?   Maybe as an experiment, but...I think we're past that stage.   Apologies in advance for my huge A-hole post.  I just really do wonder.

 

More to the point:  It's not working and has never worked.  Reasons aside.

No, still reasonable post.  Results matter, but opportunity matters as well.  I would certainly agree our prospects haven’t blown the door down, but I still believe in them and it would be nice to find a way to get them in.  

[sak22]

I think people are being a little harsh on Sigalet, I don't know if he's the answer or any good.  I still find it hard to come to a conclusion based on what he's had to work with.  I can't fault him too much for the prospects as he doesn't work with them on a daily basis, but at the same time in a year Rittich went from a decent AHL goalie that we needed to find an upgrade so he wouldn't be the backup, to a guy many fans have faith to take on a primary starting role.  Can we give him any credit for that?  Outside of that all he's had are veterans stuck in there ways and at times all vets have played very well.  I put another playoff choke as to why Hiller fell apart after a really solid 2015 season, also felt Hartley played into their heads too much.  Elliott went from a terrible start to a great finish to his usual choking spot, I don't put that on Sigalet.  Meanwhile Johnson has been brutal since leaving. Smith I was never a fan of before or after but there is very little coaching done with 36 year olds.  I think if it is a Rittich-Talbot combo next year we should have a more clear indication on Sigalet as a coach.

[cccsberg]

6 hours ago, sak22 said:

I think people are being a little harsh on Sigalet, I don't know if he's the answer or any good.  I still find it hard to come to a conclusion based on what he's had to work with.  I can't fault him too much for the prospects as he doesn't work with them on a daily basis, but at the same time in a year Rittich went from a decent AHL goalie that we needed to find an upgrade so he wouldn't be the backup, to a guy many fans have faith to take on a primary starting role.  Can we give him any credit for that?  Outside of that all he's had are veterans stuck in there ways and at times all vets have played very well.  I put another playoff choke as to why Hiller fell apart after a really solid 2015 season, also felt Hartley played into their heads too much.  Elliott went from a terrible start to a great finish to his usual choking spot, I don't put that on Sigalet.  Meanwhile Johnson has been brutal since leaving. Smith I was never a fan of before or after but there is very little coaching done with 36 year olds.  I think if it is a Rittich-Talbot combo next year we should have a more clear indication on Sigalet as a coach.

Many good points.  Many are frustrated here and too often fans rush to judgement, a la Rittich not even a year ago.  Personally I would like to see Gillies as backup before jettisoning him after all these years.  He and Rittich formed a good combo in the AHL, pushing each other, and perhaps they can do the same here?  If they bring in Talbot, who I believe would also be ok, they should move Gillies.  After all, how many times do you tell a guy he is not good enough before you move on?   

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Many good points.  Many are frustrated here and too often fans rush to judgement, a la Rittich not even a year ago.  Personally I would like to see Gillies as backup before jettisoning him after all these years.  He and Rittich formed a good combo in the AHL, pushing each other, and perhaps they can do the same here?  If they bring in Talbot, who I believe would also be ok, they should move Gillies.  After all, how many times do you tell a guy he is not good enough before you move on?   

 

Here's the issue with Gillies.

He had a bad AHL season.

He was called up but not trusted to get any games.

His pevious year he played 11 and had a 3-5-1 record in the post Smith injury period.

 

Those are a indicator of his NHL readiness.

And you want to go into a season where he is used for 30-40 games?

He could turn it around and put up wins at the NHL level, playing every 2 of 5 games, but that's a huge risk to start a season.

He's going to be waived this fall if he fails to look better than any other goalie we have or sign.

It's tough.  If we were rebuilding, the appetite for him to play 30 games would be there.

He wasn;t here when we had Hiller and Ramo and the other guys.

Goalies get the chance because of no other solution or they play their way into the NHL.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

James Reimer to the Canes for Darling and a 6th.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

James Reimer to the Canes for Darling and a 6th.

 

Well you know the Canes won;t be signing McBackup or Mrazek.

They are probably going with Forsberg.

[phoenix66]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well you know the Canes won;t be signing McBackup or Mrazek.

They are probably going with Forsberg.

Not necessarily..read a few places they're still hard on Mrazek and in on Varlamov as well.. likely see Reimer as a backup or lower 1b

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Not necessarily..read a few places they're still hard on Mrazek and in on Varlamov as well.. likely see Reimer as a backup or lower 1b

 

What I had heard about Mrazek was they offerd him a deal and he balked.

He will get starter money, I just don;t see CAR being the one to get him signed now.

They had all spring to do it.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Here's the issue with Gillies.

He had a bad AHL season.

He was called up but not trusted to get any games.

His pevious year he played 11 and had a 3-5-1 record in the post Smith injury period.

 

Those are a indicator of his NHL readiness.

And you want to go into a season where he is used for 30-40 games?

He could turn it around and put up wins at the NHL level, playing every 2 of 5 games, but that's a huge risk to start a season.

He's going to be waived this fall if he fails to look better than any other goalie we have or sign.

It's tough.  If we were rebuilding, the appetite for him to play 30 games would be there.

He wasn;t here when we had Hiller and Ramo and the other guys.

Goalies get the chance because of no other solution or they play their way into the NHL.

 

Thats an 12-18-5 record over 35 games. Aren’t they back up numbers? 29 points 

 

although, 

 

95-29=66

 

Rittich would need to get 66 points in 47 games. This year he had 59points in 45 games (I think he had 42 starts) with a 27-9-5 Not going to work... although if it was average of starts he might get to 60 points in W’s. It’s a close call.

 

If I were Gillies, I would get my eyes checked. He seems to have a lot of problems with softies. He shuts the door after one or two but we saw how a non-confidence vote for your goalie brings low morale to team.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

14 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What I had heard about Mrazek was they offerd him a deal and he balked.

He will get starter money, I just don;t see CAR being the one to get him signed now.

They had all spring to do it.

If the purse strings are too tight to re-sign the goalie that got you deep into the playoffs what does that say for Aho?

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

If the purse strings are too tight to re-sign the goalie that got you deep into the playoffs what does that say for Aho?

 

They are super cheap.

One of the reasons why Aho is not currently signed.

Ferland will be lucky if they offer him close to market value.

Repeating that success will be tough.

They will be a lotto team as likely as a playoff team.

[Thebrewcrew]