Goaltending

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

My biggest issue with the 2 pre season games so far is that you have 2 goalies fighting for a back up job (Gillies and Rittich) and both kind of crapped the bed in their first outings. Now it doesn't mean that they won't be better going forward, but when you are fighting for a job, I want you to go out take it from the other guy. Based on these games neither guy is taking the job.

 

Now even going into this season neither goalie has come out and declared that they are an NHL goalie and that was a bit of a concern. At the same time you have to give both guys a shot to earn the job.

 

Though I might be calling Kari Lehtonen's agent and seeing if we would come into camp on a PTO. He isn't a starter but he can provide capable NHL goaltending in a pinch. If Smith goes down with injury, the team's playoff hopes could go with him at this point.

 

If you are making that type of call, there are a few other options.  Mason. Sparks. Pickard.  

Any of those options presents an issue for goalie spots.  2 AHL and 2 ECHL.  You can possibly loan a goalie to another AHL or ECHL team, but you have to keep the top goalies playing enough games.

 

Assume that you add one of the above (or Letting-it-in), then you need to send down Rittich.  Once you do that you need to decide who plays where.  Gillies-Parson, Rittich-Parsons, whatever.

[MAC331]

43 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's not really a fair assessment of people's views on this forum.  Some do a lot of research into the subject.  Some look at different stats, comparables, previous season work, etc.  Some just react to what others post if they don't agree.

I'm not saying anything different now than I was in July, in that we have suspect depth in nets.  Once we have a complete team in camp, perhaps we will have a better idea of where Rittich and Gillies are this year.

Agree some seasoned posters do their homework or know their stuff, most do not and are reactionary to yesterday's news. I wasn't necessarily referring to you. In dealing with the now situation I was saying which way I would go in handling a decision. I would go with the 1a and 1b scenario and divide the games up in a good way and see if Gilles can emerge as our next regular Goalie.

[Cowtownguy]

I don't think that anyone is forming any hard opinions about Gillies and Rittich after just two pre-season games. They are also thinking about their performances last year and the picture is starting to form. Rather than appearing to be stoked about getting a chance in net, both of them seem to choke. Gillies shows nerves right from the beginning of a game while Rittich is sometimes quite porous throughout. Last night, he just plain sucked. I normally blame the defence (which sucked), but he was terrible. We need to find a way to transition them onto the NHL club. If I were Treliving, I would be on the phone 'cuz the dude has no room for failure this year.

[TheFan99]

8 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I don't think that anyone is forming any hard opinions about Gillies and Rittich after just two pre-season games. They are also thinking about their performances last year and the picture is starting to form. Rather than appearing to be stoked about getting a chance in net, both of them seem to choke. Gillies shows nerves right from the beginning of a game while Rittich is sometimes quite porous throughout. Last night, he just plain sucked. I normally blame the defence (which sucked), but he was terrible. We need to find a way to transition them onto the NHL club. If I were Treliving, I would be on the phone 'cuz the dude has no room for failure this year.

I feel the same way. Treliving IMO should maybe take a look at Oscar Dansk from Las Vegas. He, only played 3 games but dominated in those 3 games. Maybe McPhee likes Subban more and will part with Dansk.

[JTech780]

30 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are making that type of call, there are a few other options.  Mason. Sparks. Pickard.  

Any of those options presents an issue for goalie spots.  2 AHL and 2 ECHL.  You can possibly loan a goalie to another AHL or ECHL team, but you have to keep the top goalies playing enough games.

 

Assume that you add one of the above (or Letting-it-in), then you need to send down Rittich.  Once you do that you need to decide who plays where.  Gillies-Parson, Rittich-Parsons, whatever.

 

If Gillies or Rittich can't show that can consistently stop the puck then I am not overly concerned where they end up. 

 

The issue with Sparks and Pickard is that they don't have much experience and you are rolling the dice with them a bit as well. I also don't think Toronto trades Sparks.

 

I think Lehtonen is better than Mason, that's why I went with him. I don't think Mason is an NHL goalie anymore.

[TheFan99]

5 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

If Gillies or Rittich can't show that can consistently stop the puck then I am not overly concerned where they end up. 

 

The issue with Sparks and Pickard is that they don't have much experience and you are rolling the dice with them a bit as well. I also don't think Toronto trades Sparks.

 

I think Lehtonen is better than Mason, that's why I went with him. I don't think Mason is an NHL goalie anymore.

Lehtonen would be a good option. I, forgot about him. It seems most NHL goalies don't come around until 28. Then by that time the team that drafts, them gives up on them and then another team bears the fruit of that signing. Tricky stuff. 

[JTech780]

5 minutes ago, TheFan99 said:

Lehtonen would be a good option. I, forgot about him. It seems most NHL goalies don't come around until 28. Then by that time the team that drafts, them gives up on them and then another team bears the fruit of that signing. Tricky stuff. 

 

Goalies are tricky in general. To your point how long do you wait on a goalie to turn into an NHL starter? You could wait 8-10 years and he never turns out. At a certain point you have to move on.

 

I am starting to worry that Rittich is a AAAA player, meaning that he might be too good for the AHL, but he doesn't quite have what it takes to be a full time NHLer.

 

I have never been a huge fan of Gillies, he has been prone to these lapses since he was drafted and he just hasn't figured out how to stay focused from the beginning of the game till the end.

[TheFan99]

15 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Goalies are tricky in general. To your point how long do you wait on a goalie to turn into an NHL starter? You could wait 8-10 years and he never turns out. At a certain point you have to move on.

 

I am starting to worry that Rittich is a AAAA player, meaning that he might be too good for the AHL, but he doesn't quite have what it takes to be a full time NHLer.

 

I have never been a huge fan of Gillies, he has been prone to these lapses since he was drafted and he just hasn't figured out how to stay focused from the beginning of the game till the end.

I hope BT acts fast on that issue. Mikey makes me nervous with injuries as all of us probably do.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

If Gillies or Rittich can't show that can consistently stop the puck then I am not overly concerned where they end up. 

 

The issue with Sparks and Pickard is that they don't have much experience and you are rolling the dice with them a bit as well. I also don't think Toronto trades Sparks.

 

I think Lehtonen is better than Mason, that's why I went with him. I don't think Mason is an NHL goalie anymore.

 

Lehtonen may be a good goalie, but I have only seen him play that way against the Flames.  Once in awhile.

His NHL numbers in recent years haven't been stellar.  

 

You may not be concerned with where Rittich or Gillies end up, but you are paying them $750k and $250k if they play outside the NHL.  

[JTech780]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Lehtonen may be a good goalie, but I have only seen him play that way against the Flames.  Once in awhile.

His NHL numbers in recent years haven't been stellar.  

 

You may not be concerned with where Rittich or Gillies end up, but you are paying them $750k and $250k if they play outside the NHL.  

 

With Lehtonen he had a .912 save% last year which is about average, it's also better than Gillies, Rittich, and Mason. 

 

Priority number 1 is to get this team to the playoffs, and part of that equation is having a capable backup, especially when you have an aging goalie coming off an injury plagued season. If Gillies or Rittich can't be part of that equation there better be a back up plan for the backup. You deal with finding playing time for Gillies and Rittich after you get the main club situated.

 

I would much rather have Rittich or Gillies take the backup job, than bring in Lehtonen. At this point they are making me nervous.

[cccsberg]

7 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Man there are a lot of you forming critical opinions after one or two x-games. Lighten up

They are not final opinions, but they play the games for a reason.

[cross16]

Lehtonen was good last year, but that's under a Hitch coached team who is notirious for "inflating" goalie stats. Problem I have with Lehtonen is part of the reason you want to bring in a solid backup is smith's injury history, but Lehtonen's is just as bad if not worse. I view that as more of a double down as opposed to a hedge. 

 

I'll wait for a few more games before I get "nervous" but boy was it just a crappy year to need goaltending this off-season. Not many options that would have given me any more comfort than Gilles/Rittich. 

[JTech780]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Lehtonen was good last year, but that's under a Hitch coached team who is notirious for "inflating" goalie stats. Problem I have with Lehtonen is part of the reason you want to bring in a solid backup is smith's injury history, but Lehtonen's is just as bad if not worse. I view that as more of a double down as opposed to a hedge. 

 

I'll wait for a few more games before I get "nervous" but boy was it just a crappy year to need goaltending this off-season. Not many options that would have given me any more comfort than Gilles/Rittich. 

 

Lehtonen has missed 6 games to injury since 2014. That's not that bad as far injury concerns go. The other guy they could look at is Pavelec.

 

I am hopeful that this is just first game jitters or whatever for both goalies, but they better be lights out the rest of the pre season for me to have much confidence in either goalie.

[MAC331]

33 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

They are not final opinions, but they play the games for a reason.

Really, go figure

[robrob74]

A couple of friends of mine and I were chatting on Saturday and what one felt was, NHL starting goalies are all average. There are 2-3 that are truly elite, Price and Rinne.  The rest depends on what is playing in front of them. Is the system then what determines the success of s goalie? Or the defenders in front of him? 

 

Some are of course, below average and shouldn’t be in the NHL. What have we had? Borderline NHL goalies and one or two true starter since Kipper. When our systems or D are in front of them, it really shows. Do we count Elliott as a starter or closer to a backup? Smith to me, is the only starter who can be considered average or slightly above. 

 

I think regardless less of who we slot in, unless they’re elite, they’re going to look average or below until we place an emphasis on cutting down the dangerous chances.

 

Of course if you play good possession, chances will come down. But if you have the puck just for the sake of having it and not scoring then there’s another problem. We are still giving up bad chances and don’t score or get ourselves into dangerous scoring areas to get ahead or keep up offensively.

 

But letting in 7 goals isn’t accepted as quality tending.

 

I am not a fan of letting in bad goals and then bouncing back after being down 2-0. Playing from behind is disastrous in the NHL. 

 

It is preseason and we are talking about real life games... calm down on calming us down... 

[Flyerfan52]

4 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Goalies are tricky in general. To your point how long do you wait on a goalie to turn into an NHL starter? You could wait 8-10 years and he never turns out. At a certain point you have to move on.

 

I am starting to worry that Rittich is a AAAA player, meaning that he might be too good for the AHL, but he doesn't quite have what it takes to be a full time NHLer.

 

I have never been a huge fan of Gillies, he has been prone to these lapses since he was drafted and he just hasn't figured out how to stay focused from the beginning of the game till the end.

The bolded is true. In the Jets exhibition win over the Wild last night Brossoit looked a more than capable backup while I was expecting him to be the tire fire he was with the Oilers. It could be that adopting Helle's off season regimen & working with his guru turned things around. He probably never put as much into an off season before but seeing what it did for his pal Helle & wanting to salvage his career would be good incentives. Sure 1/2 the team he was facing was more Ohio than Minny but the D in front of him was 50% AHL Moose or juniors. (on that it was cool to see Big Buff paired with the even bigger Stanley. @ 6'5" & 6'7" when they were side by side on the blueline it looked like they could touch sticks. )

 

You see the same thing on players that want to be the best. I've mentioned Scheifele & Wheeler before but Laine & Dano both came to camp 14 pounds lighter & both looked better & faster for it. Both credit asking Scheifele questions & trying to follow suit to some degree.

 

On the Flames Gio is said to be a workout freak in the vein of Brindamour. If only this rubbed off on the other players.

 

These days hockey is a year round job as the 1s driven to be #1 take a week off @ most. It's a far cry from the days of Phil Espisito where summer was for partying & you played yourself into shape in training camp. If you want the bigger cheques you work 365 days a year. You can relax when your career ends with a fat bank account.

[Thebrewcrew]

Worst case scenario TOR is putting a really good backup on waivers. 2 of Mcelhinney, Pickard and Sparks will be on the wire if Gillies and Rittich fail to impress. I'd be all over Sparks if available and Mcelhinney seems to be a favorite of Babcock

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

A couple of friends of mine and I were chatting on Saturday and what one felt was, NHL starting goalies are all average. There are 2-3 that are truly elite, Price and Rinne.  The rest depends on what is playing in front of them. Is the system then what determines the success of s goalie? Or the defenders in front of him? 

 

Some are of course, below average and shouldn’t be in the NHL. What have we had? Borderline NHL goalies and one or two true starter since Kipper. When our systems or D are in front of them, it really shows. Do we count Elliott as a starter or closer to a backup? Smith to me, is the only starter who can be considered average or slightly above. 

 

I think regardless less of who we slot in, unless they’re elite, they’re going to look average or below until we place an emphasis on cutting down the dangerous chances.

 

Of course if you play good possession, chances will come down. But if you have the puck just for the sake of having it and not scoring then there’s another problem. We are still giving up bad chances and don’t score or get ourselves into dangerous scoring areas to get ahead or keep up offensively.

 

But letting in 7 goals isn’t accepted as quality tending.

 

I am not a fan of letting in bad goals and then bouncing back after being down 2-0. Playing from behind is disastrous in the NHL. 

 

It is preseason and we are talking about real life games... calm down on calming us down... 

On the flip side of not allowing 7 goals I am not sure expecting shut outs in the new NHL is what people should be looking for now. Younger, faster more skilled with not much in the way of obstacles to curtail scoring, one better get used to 3 goals against games. They come fast and they are no longer flukes or soft goals,its bang and they are in.

[MAC331]

11 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Worst case scenario TOR is putting a really good backup on waivers. 2 of Mcelhinney, Pickard and Sparks will be on the wire if Gillies and Rittich fail to impress. I'd be all over Sparks if available and Mcelhinney seems to be a favorite of Babcock

Yeah but Babcock isn't stupid either Sparks over McIlhenney is the choice now.

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

On the flip side of not allowing 7 goals I am not sure expecting shut outs in the new NHL is what people should be looking for now. Younger, faster more skilled with not much in the way of obstacles to curtail scoring, one better get used to 3 goals against games. They come fast and they are no longer flukes or soft goals,its bang and they are in.

 

Thats great!! I don’t expect shutouts either. And I understand the best goalies sometimes let in 9... Roy. 

 

I would like more scoring for sure. Hockey is so well coached that it’s a teeter totter of good D and some breakdowns. I expect both really. And I get we over-analyze it to death. And I think that’s what I’ve been trying to say, along with what my friends were talking about. It sounds like you agree as well. 

[rickross]

12 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Man there are a lot of you forming critical opinions after one or two x-games. Lighten up

It's funny, for whatever reason you seem to take particular offence whenever someone has an opinion you don't happen to share. Try taking your own advice. Lighten. Up. 

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Thats great!! I don’t expect shutouts either. And I understand the best goalies sometimes let in 9... Roy. 

 

I would like more scoring for sure. Hockey is so well coached that it’s a teeter totter of good D and some breakdowns. I expect both really. And I get we over-analyze it to death. And I think that’s what I’ve been trying to say, along with what my friends were talking about. It sounds like you agree as well. 

Using Gilles game in China as an example, I thought he showed a lot of maturity in how he came back from the 3 goals allowed, he kept his team in it long enough to win it over the 3 periods. The 3 goals were from opposition players in wide open spots, you can only be so quick. I know as fans we don't want to see us get down by 3 early but blaming the goalie all the time is a cop out on us.

[MAC331]

8 minutes ago, rickross said:

It's funny, for whatever reason you seem to take particular offence whenever someone has an opinion you don't happen to share. Try taking your own advice. Lighten. Up. 

You are especially bad for it. I'm about as light as they come.

[kehatch]

9 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Using Gilles game in China as an example, I thought he showed a lot of maturity in how he came back from the 3 goals allowed, he kept his team in it long enough to win it over the 3 periods. The 3 goals were from opposition players in wide open spots, you can only be so quick. I know as fans we don't want to see us get down by 3 early but blaming the goalie all the time is a cop out on us.

 

That is Gilles MO. There are parts of his game that get you excited. Flashes of goodness every so often. But the Flames don't need flashes of good play tarnished by 10 minutes of stink. He needs to show he can be consistent and he needs to show it before he is a NHL regular. 

 

It is the early preseason for sure and nobody should be making conclusions based on those two games. Though I think it is fair to say I wasn't high on our backups well before the preseason began. They haven't done anything to change my mind. Yet. I hope it is just yet. 

[conundrumed]

27 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Yeah but Babcock isn't stupid either Sparks over McIlhenney is the choice now.

Just to break up what I think will be a really *yaaawwn* compelling internet fight read...

I think you're right. It's McIlhenny or Pickard imo.

McIlhenhy was so solid last year, it's a tough call.

Pickard is borderline 4th on the depth chart, I'd lose him on the cheap personally.

Unless he prefers A backup or E starter.

 

As for that other thing, get lighter is my only advice...