MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just now, travel_dude said: The goalie coach is going to work with whatever one is performing sub par. It's more than just preach and remind. It's recognizing the areas of the game that need work. It's spending time with them in the video room. It's working with them on their confidence. Anybody can coach. Some have the insight and skill to bring out the best in any player. What I am suggesting is that given the results, regardless of who they have had, it's time to make that change. If we bring in Rittich or Gillies to backup Smith, or get a near-ready starter to backup, then we need someone that can achieve better results. Anybody can coach ? where do you come from on this ? have you ever coached ? I don't think you know what you are talking about . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Who in your mind has he had to work with that should have been exceptional ? Who said that I thought any of the goalies since Sigalet was a coach should have been exceptional?... Of course we would all have liked to see progress with every goaltender, but even consistent performance in the net would have been more acceptable... I would not be so critical of Sigalet if it were not for the fact that since he has been the goaltending coach every single goaltender has regressed to the point that they needed to be replaced... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, travel_dude said: Yeah, I don't think that's fair. I don't think he has done a great job, but I think the Flames have kept him around because they are a moral team. They value hard work and personal connections over results. Which is such a catch-22, because they'll speed up a rebuild to be ok with "just making the playoff." i agree that they are a very moral team, to a fault sometimes, probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 28 minutes ago, Carty said: Who said that I thought any of the goalies since Sigalet was a coach should have been exceptional?... Of course we would all have liked to see progress with every goaltender, but even consistent performance in the net would have been more acceptable... I would not be so critical of Sigalet if it were not for the fact that since he has been the goaltending coach every single goaltender has regressed to the point that they needed to be replaced... Did they regress or were they just not good enough to begin with ? Fine line at this level. We start with hope for all our prospects and if the coach we have in Stockton is as good as being said here then we should see these current prospect goalies better prepared for the NHL. Most players/goalies are what they are by the time they get to the NHL coaches can emphasize certain changes required but it is the individual that must adopt them. Maybe Sigalet isn't any good, if he isn't change it up. I just don't think we have had a very high calibre of prospects coming through. What Elliott or Johnson did and didn't accomplish this past season is on them as experienced veterans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 24 minutes ago, MAC331 said: Did they regress or were they just not good enough to begin with ? Fine line at this level. We start with hope for all our prospects and if the coach we have in Stockton is as good as being said here then we should see these current prospect goalies better prepared for the NHL. Most players/goalies are what they are by the time they get to the NHL coaches can emphasize certain changes required but it is the individual that must adopt them. Maybe Sigalet isn't any good, if he isn't change it up. I just don't think we have had a very high calibre of prospects coming through. What Elliott or Johnson did and didn't accomplish this past season is on them as experienced veterans. so on the one hand you say its up to the goalie to meet the system , or at very least its possible we are choosing goalies that dont meet our requirements... but on the other hand you have argued in the past that liking or disliking certain goalies in our system was incorrect and its up to the team to adapt to them ? thats how this conversation started today . I have seen many reports , from his previous coaches who praised Smith for his ability to continuously seek to upgrade his skills .. compared to Elliot , who , just now , is getting the concept that maybe he needs to start early communication with his d-men. That is on the goalie, and the coach.. Sigalet has been with the team long enough.. he knows what shots we give up .. what particular dmen have a tendency to do .. this should have been a conversation the day he arrived in camp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: so on the one hand you say its up to the goalie to meet the system , or at very least its possible we are choosing goalies that dont meet our requirements... but on the other hand you have argued in the past that liking or disliking certain goalies in our system was incorrect and its up to the team to adapt to them ? thats how this conversation started today . I have seen many reports , from his previous coaches who praised Smith for his ability to continuously seek to upgrade his skills .. compared to Elliot , who , just now , is getting the concept that maybe he needs to start early communication with his d-men. That is on the goalie, and the coach.. Sigalet has been with the team long enough.. he knows what shots we give up .. what particular dmen have a tendency to do .. this should have been a conversation the day he arrived in camp To me it sounds like an excuse on Elliott's part. I get it, you need to communicate. But that doesn't account for being cold and not being able to make a routine save, which, if your team is dominating, you better be able to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: so on the one hand you say its up to the goalie to meet the system , or at very least its possible we are choosing goalies that dont meet our requirements... but on the other hand you have argued in the past that liking or disliking certain goalies in our system was incorrect and its up to the team to adapt to them ? thats how this conversation started today . I have seen many reports , from his previous coaches who praised Smith for his ability to continuously seek to upgrade his skills .. compared to Elliot , who , just now , is getting the concept that maybe he needs to start early communication with his d-men. That is on the goalie, and the coach.. Sigalet has been with the team long enough.. he knows what shots we give up .. what particular dmen have a tendency to do .. this should have been a conversation the day he arrived in camp Where did I say any of this ? How do you know they were not in conversations or watching video ? How much of watching video is there when a new system is coming in, everyone is learning from scratch. I wouldn't say Elliott chose to sit in a corner and not discuss things with his team mates, do you think this ? This whole team was in a state of disarray for the first few months. I hardly think Sigalet caused all the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just now, robrob74 said: To me it sounds like an excuse on Elliott's part. I get it, you need to communicate. But that doesn't account for being cold and not being able to make a routine save, which, if your team is dominating, you better be able to do. And maybe more than anything else this is why he is gone now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 hours ago, MAC331 said: Anybody can coach ? where do you come from on this ? have you ever coached ? I don't think you know what you are talking about . It's too bad that you constantly resort to insults. What do you know about me - nothing. If you are a professional hockey coach, then fine, you must know what you are talking about. But anyone can coach; it's a learned skill. Lots of sub-par players become them. Lots of people shouldn't be coaching (ask Theo Fleury). Some people have that personality that makes them a natural. There are good ones and bad ones. I'm sure you will want to get the last word in on the topic, so have at 'er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Lol the good ol "if you didn't play in the NHL then you have no right to talk about the NHL" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 52 minutes ago, travel_dude said: It's too bad that you constantly resort to insults. What do you know about me - nothing. If you are a professional hockey coach, then fine, you must know what you are talking about. But anyone can coach; it's a learned skill. Lots of sub-par players become them. Lots of people shouldn't be coaching (ask Theo Fleury). Some people have that personality that makes them a natural. There are good ones and bad ones. I'm sure you will want to get the last word in on the topic, so have at 'er. Don't take it as an insult and show me you actually have some background to say some of the stuff you do. You are right I don't know anything about you thus why I asked. I don't agree anyone can coach or should coach, seen many that should have kept their noses out of it. I highly doubt Sigalet got as far as he has by not being good at what he does, if someone comes along that is better turf him. Management should make every effort to get their hands on the best people at the professional level. All I'm saying is some are real quick to point at the coach for a professional's performance when they are only able to influence in a limited way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, MAC331 said: Where did I say any of this ? How do you know they were not in conversations or watching video ? How much of watching video is there when a new system is coming in, everyone is learning from scratch. I wouldn't say Elliott chose to sit in a corner and not discuss things with his team mates, do you think this ? This whole team was in a state of disarray for the first few months. I hardly think Sigalet caused all the confusion. My bad, you are correct, that was TD.. and also correct , there are many factors that go into systems, it is possible that Elliot is a slow learner . But in all of it, these were not untalented goaltenders the last 6 years ..none advanced (again I'll put an asterisk beside Ramo)..all regressed . 7 Primary Goalies, 3 coaches, 3 different systems.. he is only common denominator. And yes, it could just be he is very good at teaching fundamentals, but it appears he has no grasp on advanced techniques that are being used to evolve goalies with the play nowadays... Sean Burke essentially turned Dubnyk into a brand new goalie in just a few short months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 47 minutes ago, The_People1 said: Lol the good ol "if you didn't play in the NHL then you have no right to talk about the NHL" argument. That isn't it all but you stay with the shallow answer. All I asked was for some background to understand how one reaches a viewpoint or opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just now, phoenix66 said: My bad, you are correct, that was TD.. and also correct , there are many factors that go into systems, it is possible that Elliot is a slow learner . But in all of it, these were not untalented goaltenders the last 6 years ..none advanced (again I'll put an asterisk beside Ramo)..all regressed . 7 Primary Goalies, 3 coaches, 3 different systems.. he is only common denominator. And yes, it could just be he is very good at teaching fundamentals, but it appears he has no grasp on advanced techniq Advanced Techniques such as what ? be more specific. You know what we learned or maybe I should say I learned this season Elliott is not quite a full blown starter and Johnson is exactly what he comes billed as a good back up goaltender. I don't think Sigalet could have influenced either one of these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just now, MAC331 said: Advanced Techniques such as what ? be more specific. You know what we learned or maybe I should say I learned this season Elliott is not quite a full blown starter and Johnson is exactly what he comes billed as a good back up goaltender. I don't think Sigalet could have influenced either one of these guys. In Dubnyk's case, it was how he tracks with his head and also to stay on his skates http://ingoalmag.com/technique/dubnyk-bounces-back-head-trajectory-and-more/ more and more coaching for goalies these says is going towards reading the player instead of tracking the puck- much like how a batter reads a pitcher to anticipate what pitch is coming .One of the best at it , I was reading earlier is King Henry so it stands to reason this was a primary teaching of the NYR goalie coach(Benoit Allaire ..brother of Francois).. Henrik, Talbot , now Raanta... seeing a trend here ? Raanta was good in Chicago , but his game has amped up in NY I gave an example shortly after Edmonton was bounced.. - on the shot that beat him in Game 4.. Elliot stated (very close to ) " i chose the proper save selection " meaning he is taught , or refuses to move from , to do a particular position in certain situations.... eg: guy is in the corner, I hug the post etc.. - on a goal in Game 7 Talbot Stated " I was partially blocked and didn't get a read on the shooter" - he reads the player .. where the hands are , where the feet point etc.. to gauge what kind of shot is coming and then where he should be and what part of the net he should be covering . If i recall correctly , he was blind, ended up going down , shot went high Standard angles , position, percentages should be the backup option in today's Goalies, not the go to . Kind of like Bob Hartley vs GG on shot blocking... Hartley based his D around it .. GG basically said if you're blocking a shot, Somebody messed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, The_People1 said: Lol the good ol "if you didn't play in the NHL then you have no right to talk about the NHL" argument. Thumbs up. Not to mention an over page long discussion trying to evaluate a coach that really no one is qualified to evaluate. Unless anyone here has seen Sigalet work with the players or heard directly from the players he's coached trying to evaluate his performance is impossible. There are so many variables that go into performance and very few of them are in a coach's control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, cross16 said: Thumbs up. Not to mention an over page long discussion trying to evaluate a coach that really no one is qualified to evaluate. Unless anyone here has seen Sigalet work with the players or heard directly from the players he's coached trying to evaluate his performance is impossible. There are so many variables that go into performance and very few of them are in a coach's control. so by that argument , since nobody here ever eavesdropped on a trade call, or scouting meeting .. Jay Feaster may have actually been an Amazing GM.. just getting a raw deal from everybody he tried to bargain with ? I judge him by his body of work , and so far he's had over 7 of them with at least 6 failures , that's all . his track record needs to improve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: so by that argument , since nobody here ever eavesdropped on a trade call, or scouting meeting .. Jay Feaster may have actually been an Amazing GM.. just getting a raw deal from everybody he tried to bargain with ? I judge him by his body of work , and so far he's had over 7 of them with at least 6 failures , that's all . his track record needs to improve I don't follow how that is a valid comparison at all considering Feaster, and any GM, has full control over saying Yes or No to a deal. You can tell a player whatever you want but it's up to them to perform on the ice. Anyway everyone will have their opinion and that's completely fine. I'm not saying Sigalet is great but I think in general people very much overrate the impact of a coach that's all. He's been handed some pretty poor talent levels to work so with poor talent should come poor results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just now, cross16 said: I don't follow how that is a valid comparison at all considering Feaster, and any GM, has full control over saying Yes or No to a deal. You can tell a player whatever you want but it's up to them to perform on the ice. Anyway everyone will have their opinion and that's completely fine. I'm not saying Sigalet is great but I think in general people very much overrate the impact of a coach that's all. He's been handed some pretty poor talent levels to work so with poor talent should come poor results. Agreed, but it's the coaches job to get through to that player . What happens when a head coach loses the room? he gets fired on the flip side, always willing to look at both options.. maybe they've just given him 7 straight goalies that wouldn't listen to him , hence the mystery as to why they gave up on some like Ortio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 45 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: Agreed, but it's the coaches job to get through to that player . What happens when a head coach loses the room? he gets fired on the flip side, always willing to look at both options.. maybe they've just given him 7 straight goalies that wouldn't listen to him , hence the mystery as to why they gave up on some like Ortio. On the other hand the player has to be open to constructive critisim. I know Travis Zajak @ 32 is still working out @ a local training facility & open to ideas to improve. Contrast that with Yakupov's reported attitude of his skill getting him this far so why bother listening to coaches. There are even those that think if a coach wasn't a great player he has nothing to teach. Yet many depth players spend their time of the bench observing both the coach's decissions (their coach & those on other teams) in specific circumstances & what works. Real students of the game & often better coachs that the 1s logging big minutes. You can only teach those open to learning. A closed mind is just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said: There are even those that think if a coach wasn't a great player he has nothing to teach. Yet many depth players spend their time of the bench observing both the coach's decissions (their coach & those on other teams) in specific circumstances & what works. Real students of the game & often better coachs that the 1s logging big minutes. So True.. history is full of bad to average players that made amazing coaches.. Sather, Cherry ,Daryl Sutter etc... and some Great players that bombed as NHL coaches .. Gretzky, Brent Sutter .. obviously exceptions to both rules, but more often than not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 On 6/21/2017 at 8:00 AM, phoenix66 said: Interesting quote from Elliot in Friedman's 30 Thoughts today .. 18. Elliott had some interesting things to say about his year in Calgary and how he played. He thinks his early struggles came because he knew exactly how the St. Louis defencemen would make certain plays, and needed time to adjust to the Flames. “Wherever I go next, I’m going to focus a lot right away on communication so I can hit the ground running. Jay Bouwmeester, Alex Pietrangelo, Kevin Shattenkirk, whether they would slide on a two-on-one, take away the back door or focus on the slot, I’d been with them so long I knew what they’d do. I knew when I could cheat a little more, or should do it less. It took a lot of video work with (Calgary goalie coach) Jordan Sigalet, but finally I felt better and could be more aggressive. It was a reminder that players aren’t going to change their tendencies in front of you, so you have to learn how to read a different team.” again , feel bad for the guy.. but still we made the right move .. it does raise the question though, Why did it take so long to adjust ?- was almost half way thru the season before his game started picking up .. tells me either a) he doesnt adjust well b ) Jordan Sigalet again dropped the ball by not coaching to this faster and better c) it lends more credence to how goalies to a large degree are a product of the team system and d) Why was this(bolded) not on your To Do list already when you got here ?? One of the first things I read about Smith after the trade is how he is constantly learning new training to adapt his style.. sounds like he's much more coachable If the problem is the goalie coach do you want to be more coachable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 12 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said: If the problem is the goalie coach do you want to be more coachable? LOL.. good point .. lets hope it means its more proactive and wont keep doing what doesn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 No Big surprise here ... And apparently Niemi being bought out in Dallas.. also no big surprise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 I feel much better about Smith as our goalie since we acquired Hamonic. I wouldn't doubt Smith was doing cartwheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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