Goaltending

[kehatch]

I recall starting a post years ago when Iginla's trade was imminent asking members of the forum what they define a rebuild as. The range of answers spanned the entire galaxy and back. Some considered a rebuild as simply trading Jarome Iginla alone while the other end defined a rebuild as a complete tear down of management/coaching staff/farm system/scouting staff/etc. Most defined a rebuild to be somewhere in between but there was generally no consensus definition.

Given that, I'm not surprised to find everyone disagreeing with the definition "done rebuilding".

To me, done rebuilding means "making the playoffs again." Because to me, rebuilding means to trade everybody that's old, suck for a few years, stock up on some high picks, mesh, and then stop sucking. So to basically progress from the basement of the league and then be setup to make a run for the Cup with some young core pieces. In other words, the Flames were done rebuilding the moment they made the playoffs last year with Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, etc.

Since we were good enough to make the playoffs last season, we should be within tweaking peripheral pieces of challenging for the Cup. It's so disappointing to see them take a huge step backwards. I know it's not a popular idea but if we knew this was going to happen, then I'd rather we sucked last year for a better pick and then come back this year stronger.

Nothing worries me more than finding out we didn't invest enough time in the basement building the foundation first before building the house on top, and then finding out the entire house is crumbling due to a weak foundation. We should've just spent last year "tanking" (I use the word loosely here), and trading Hudler for a 1st round pick, etc, stocking up the cupboards with more prospects while the team is investing time in that part of the rebuilding path.

What is your take on tanking and rebuilding? Can't tell because you missed adding the subject in at least one thread.

Seriously. The Flames have their high draft picks and lots of young talent. They will likely get another high pick this draft. You have look pretty hard to hooking about that.

As for last season, it was a fluke. The Flames stuck to the plan and continued with the rebuild despite last seasons success. Kudos to management for that.

[MAC331]

I recall starting a post years ago when Iginla's trade was imminent asking members of the forum what they define a rebuild as.  The range of answers spanned the entire galaxy and back.  Some considered a rebuild as simply trading Jarome Iginla alone while the other end defined a rebuild as a complete tear down of management/coaching staff/farm system/scouting staff/etc.  Most defined a rebuild to be somewhere in between but there was generally no consensus definition.

 

Given that, I'm not surprised to find everyone disagreeing with the definition "done rebuilding".

 

To me, done rebuilding means "making the playoffs again."  Because to me, rebuilding means to trade everybody that's old, suck for a few years, stock up on some high picks, mesh, and then stop sucking.  So to basically progress from the basement of the league and then be setup to make a run for the Cup with some young core pieces.  In other words, the Flames were done rebuilding the moment they made the playoffs last year with Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, etc.

 

Since we were good enough to make the playoffs last season, we should be within tweaking peripheral pieces of challenging for the Cup.  It's so disappointing to see them take a huge step backwards.  I know it's not a popular idea but if we knew this was going to happen, then I'd rather we sucked last year for a better pick and then come back this year stronger.

 

Nothing worries me more than finding out we didn't invest enough time in the basement building the foundation first before building the house on top, and then finding out the entire house is crumbling due to a weak foundation.  We should've just spent last year "tanking" (I use the word loosely here), and trading Hudler for a 1st round pick, etc, stocking up the cupboards with more prospects while the team is investing time in that part of the rebuilding path.

I don't think you and jig have the perfect rebuild formula figured out either. The Flames organization I believe respect their fans enough that they overpaid a number of veterans to stay and come here in order to provide some stability as they drafted and brought in better younger players. Just because they exceeded expectations last season by making the playoffs in no way signifies the rebuild is complete.

I believe in the theory of building from the net out and so far BT has only tried to provide some veteran experience in Hiller and see if Ramo is any kind of answer. I would say the answer so far is no with Ramo and this was to be Hiller last year regardless. The search continues.

We have 3 top defensemen in Giordano, Brodie and Hiller. Russell, Wideman, Engelland and Smid are all overpaid or in Russell's case wants to be and must be replaced ongoing with other additions or from our pipeline ( still building this part).

Forwards are a real mix for us, we have some of the core pieces that are only 1or 2 years in the maturing phase of their NL careers supported by veteran players that may be on their way out. As they move out the forward lines are being reshaped hopefully with the right pieces and some of these pieces will be new and young. Young means maturing will need to take place while gaining BHL experience.

 

I would say our rebuilding efforts are far from finished. Should we lower our expectation about winning, I hope not and I don't think we want the players to lower their expectations either.

[CheersMan]

I can’t imagine the Flames would try to acquire a #1 GT by the TD.  Not only are the options sparse, but the price is inflated.  Not sure there is a GT in the league that would help us finish 19W-6L-4OT for 95 pts and a possible playoff berth, so what’s the point in acquiring a #1 now?  May as well wait until the offseason when more options become available. 

 

If Ramo is gone long term, then its Hiller time.  With 6 games to go to the TD, one would think that Hiller would need to win them all to keep Ortio on the bench.  If and when the season becomes more meaningless, Ortio will get his opportunity, then watch the red light flash as the pucks enter high (like the second shot vs ANA, albeit a 5 player screen). 

 

When it comes to trades or acquisitions, the best player available out there right now is in the draft.  The question is where do we want to pick?

[420since1974]

Most fans have their own idea of what constitutes a rebuild and when one is over.

 

Personally, when I heard "5 year rebuild", I envisioned 5 years with no play-off hockey at all.

There would be pain and lots of losses on the scoreboard.

 

The team would move the high priced vets, get some high draft picks, and temporarily fill holes with FAs until the prospect cupboard was full again, and the new core given time to mature.

 

I still feel the same way, as it's only year 3.

 

2018/2019 is when I expect the Flames to be able to win a few play-off rounds and hopefully become a perennial contender.

 

 

Nothing against anyone who feels differently, I know that patience is a very hard thing to have.

[Da4RealDeal]

I have given my suggestions at times and have recently thought about what it would really take to get certain changes down to improve right now. I am starting to think that the price it would cost us to TRY to be competitive right now is to high and there is no quick fix at this point.

 

 A rebuild is like a remodeling of your home, along the way certain things become more important to you and other things are just things that have to come first.

 

I say get the net situation taken care of first. Allow the new goalies whom every they maybe get some playing time while we sort out our cupboards and try to fill some existing holes from within first. I say this for two reasons, asset management and cost savings.  If we are able to create a balance of third and fourth line players from within that gives us room to spend on the top line RWer we all know we need.

 

 If BT is to move out Hudler, Russell, Jones, and maybe a few other pieces that may not be part of the future of this team even if that is a few players we have yet to evaluate at the NHL level the return could work out to be a large number of draft picks added to this years draft and by doing so give the rebuild a new younger face lift.

 

I understand that a few position on this team are taken up by players we would all like to see go, and justly so, but there is still the off season and buy outs. By the looks of thing I predict 2 D spots opening up next year with Russell gone and Smid bought out. As for up front Hudler gets a second+, Jones may get a smaller contract but we would be better served with a third which also frees up a roster spot on the third. Raymond either gets moved with a small salary retention or a buy out, but I think we can all agree we have a few better options that are less of a defensive liability.

 

In goal I don't see either Hiller or Ramo getting even a offer from this team due to poor play and the games lost due to injury. I hope they can put the right offer together for Anderson and even play Poulin as the number two. 

 

A possible starting roster on opening day, keep in mind there will be some revolving doors at the forward positions while we evaluate certain players.

 

JH/Monohan/Frolik

Ferland/Bennett/{Poirier

Agostino/Backlund/Grant

Bouma/Stajan/Hamilton

 

Gio/Brodie

Ham/Nakladal

Wides/Eng

 

Anderson

Poulin

[conundrumed]

Most fans have their own idea of what constitutes a rebuild and when one is over.

 

Personally, when I heard "5 year rebuild", I envisioned 5 years with no play-off hockey at all.

There would be pain and lots of losses on the scoreboard.

 

The team would move the high priced vets, get some high draft picks, and temporarily fill holes with FAs until the prospect cupboard was full again, and the new core given time to mature.

 

I still feel the same way, as it's only year 3.

 

2018/2019 is when I expect the Flames to be able to win a few play-off rounds and hopefully become a perennial contender.

 

 

Nothing against anyone who feels differently, I know that patience is a very hard thing to have.

 

Most fans have their own idea of what constitutes a rebuild and when one is over.

 

Personally, when I heard "5 year rebuild", I envisioned 5 years with no play-off hockey at all.

There would be pain and lots of losses on the scoreboard.

 

The team would move the high priced vets, get some high draft picks, and temporarily fill holes with FAs until the prospect cupboard was full again, and the new core given time to mature.

 

I still feel the same way, as it's only year 3.

 

2018/2019 is when I expect the Flames to be able to win a few play-off rounds and hopefully become a perennial contender.

 

 

Nothing against anyone who feels differently, I know that patience is a very hard thing to have.

I think I know the answer. The rebuild ends at Stajan. When we fill our holes to the point Stajan can be replaced, the rebuild is complete.

It seems a ways off to me yet.

I am not at all disappointed this year, nail some picks and gather up the cap.

One thing I'm shocked by, though, is Hiller's vision at his blueline. I knew Ramo tracks the puck better, but Hiller has just gone blind this year. It's tragic and hard to watch. Take a high wrist shot from the point this year, seems 50-50.

Where's the coaching to identify it?

[DirtyDeeds]

I don't think you and jig have the perfect rebuild formula figured out either. The Flames organization I believe respect their fans enough that they overpaid a number of veterans to stay and come here in order to provide some stability as they drafted and brought in better younger players. Just because they exceeded expectations last season by making the playoffs in no way signifies the rebuild is complete.

I believe in the theory of building from the net out and so far BT has only tried to provide some veteran experience in Hiller and see if Ramo is any kind of answer. I would say the answer so far is no with Ramo and this was to be Hiller last year regardless. The search continues.

We have 3 top defensemen in Giordano, Brodie and Hiller. Russell, Wideman, Engelland and Smid are all overpaid or in Russell's case wants to be and must be replaced ongoing with other additions or from our pipeline ( still building this part).

Forwards are a real mix for us, we have some of the core pieces that are only 1or 2 years in the maturing phase of their NL careers supported by veteran players that may be on their way out. As they move out the forward lines are being reshaped hopefully with the right pieces and some of these pieces will be new and young. Young means maturing will need to take place while gaining BHL experience.

 

I would say our rebuilding efforts are far from finished. Should we lower our expectation about winning, I hope not and I don't think we want the players to lower their expectations either.

Hope Hiller can play D better than his efforts in goal lately. 

[cross16]

So, I really need to respectfully (and I do mean respectfully) disagree with almost everything in this post on a fundamental level, and a factual level, and by the contradictions.

 

First and foremost:  We are Not done rebuilding.  At all. 

 

There.  I said it.  I feel better.  And I AM sorry cross, as I don't intend for this to be personal.  I just feel quite strongly about it.   Especially, on what a rebuild is.

 

        Nobody, and I mean....Nobody, uses the definition provided above to mark the end of a rebuild.  By that definition, for instance, Edmonton would be done rebuilding.  They already have their core, and they are No longer shipping out assets (because they have no valuable veteran assets left).

 

        Yet, we all clearly know that Edmonton continues to rebuild, because NONE of their core has developed into successful, consistent, dependable NHLers.     At the NHL level, Edmonton has NOT developed, and will continue to rebuild, until they can develop their NHL players into actual NHL players.

 

       Clearly, the majority of our core is Also in a development stage at the NHL level.  Several years out from their prime, with MUCH to learn and grow at.  Likewise, we have more significant holes than a contending team, which we need to fill Before we lose the advantage of high draft picks, if we want to be a contender.

 

    I feel that it is very important for us to understand that the Flames Are rebuilding, and I feel that it is important for us to Believe in, and Support the rebuild.

 

Frankly, if we don't...we will become a very depressed fan base in the short term.    And possibly pressure the organization into making some very regrettable short-term moves that leave us in limbo for another decade.  What we need, more than anything now, is for the organization to know that they have the time to do this Right.   That the fans want more than short-term guilty pleasures in the regular season with brief appearances in the first round.   The fans want a Stanley Cup.   And are patient enough to support their team on that journey.

 

 

p.s.... Second biggest contradiction, on  a side note:   "Finding an answer now" is EXACTLY how we ended up with both Hiller and Ramo, and the whole reason none of our prospects ever got any real NHL time.   You and I have had Big arguments about this over the years.   I thought the RAMO acquisition, and the Hiller acquisition, were short-sighted.   You took the other side on this, and were EXTREMELY supportive of both acquisitions, which were short-term and provided us with exactly ZERO Stanley cups.  I am Not even sure if they actually provided us with more regular season wins.

 

You have your position, and I have mine.  But I don't feel you should be able to have two opposite positions.

 

I feel that your position now is a bit like having your cake and eating it too.

 

As I said JJ I get others are going to disagree so that's fine. A couple of points that I would clarify.

 

Just becuase I say that Flames are done rebuilding doesn't mean I think they need to be a contender tomorrow. I septerate teams into rebuilders, builders, contenders and pretenders. The rebuild is the deconstruction when you strip it down to its studs, find a core to build around and then start to build it back up. This is the state I think the Flames should be in and the different for me is that they shouldn't just be sitting around waiting for people to get better. They need to be aggressive in order to fills holes like they did with moves like Frolik/Hamilton. Rebuilding to me implies you sit back, collect your picks and wait for things to mature. Flames are past this IMO. 

You bring up Edmonton and that's a good example of why I don't agree you rebuild that long. Edmonton should have been done rebuilding years ago, but they remained so patient that they kept rebuilding year after year and shipping out NHL talent year afer year and then you are left with a young team that doens't know how to win and holes everywhere. You cannot just picks up tons of tons of prospects and let them mature together and then presto, start winning. I pefer the Chicago model where you draft and develop a new core and then aggresively go after pieces that can round out that core. Otherwise, how long do you want to 'rebuild" 5 years? 7 years? 

Big different two between Edmonton and Calgary is Edmonton doesn't have a blueline and Flames do. If the Flames were as unbalanced as the Oilers are I would probably not suggest they are done rebuilding. To have a Core you can build with, it needs to be balanced and the Flames have that. 

Another issue for me is you've got 2 elite bluleliners that you can't wait on. Gio has maybe 3/4 prime years left and Brodie has 4 more years left on a steal of a deal. When you combine that with new analytics that show the prime of an Nhlers career is 25-29 I dont want to keep waiting for another 3-4 years. Get aggressive, so long as its not detrimental to sustainted future success. I'm not, and never have, suggesting that the Flames empty the cupboards and deal everyone to get better now but they also shoudn't have to. You can make smart hockey trades tha tmake you better now, without sacrificing future. 

 

IN terms of goaltending you and I will never agree on this becuase you view Ortio as a legit NHL prospect and I don't. So yes I fully supported Ramo being re signed, wasn't crazy about signign HIller as I recal but I don't think the Flames have missed the boat on Ortio either. I do happen to believe, that had the Flames had above league avg goaltending this year we are having a very different conversation because they likely are in or very close to a playoff spot. I would estimate, that poor goaltending has cost them at least 8 points in the standing so part of our disagreement is I don't think they are as far away as you seem to. That's another reason I don't like using the term rebulding, but agian that doesn' tmean I think they need to contend tomorrow but I also don't want to see them just sitting back and waiting. I believe that fails organizations far more than it succeeds. 

[MAC331]

I have given my suggestions at times and have recently thought about what it would really take to get certain changes down to improve right now. I am starting to think that the price it would cost us to TRY to be competitive right now is to high and there is no quick fix at this point.

 

 A rebuild is like a remodeling of your home, along the way certain things become more important to you and other things are just things that have to come first.

 

I say get the net situation taken care of first. Allow the new goalies whom every they maybe get some playing time while we sort out our cupboards and try to fill some existing holes from within first. I say this for two reasons, asset management and cost savings.  If we are able to create a balance of third and fourth line players from within that gives us room to spend on the top line RWer we all know we need.

 

 If BT is to move out Hudler, Russell, Jones, and maybe a few other pieces that may not be part of the future of this team even if that is a few players we have yet to evaluate at the NHL level the return could work out to be a large number of draft picks added to this years draft and by doing so give the rebuild a new younger face lift.

 

I understand that a few position on this team are taken up by players we would all like to see go, and justly so, but there is still the off season and buy outs. By the looks of thing I predict 2 D spots opening up next year with Russell gone and Smid bought out. As for up front Hudler gets a second+, Jones may get a smaller contract but we would be better served with a third which also frees up a roster spot on the third. Raymond either gets moved with a small salary retention or a buy out, but I think we can all agree we have a few better options that are less of a defensive liability.

 

In goal I don't see either Hiller or Ramo getting even a offer from this team due to poor play and the games lost due to injury. I hope they can put the right offer together for Anderson and even play Poulin as the number two. 

 

A possible starting roster on opening day, keep in mind there will be some revolving doors at the forward positions while we evaluate certain players.

 

JH/Monohan/Frolik

Ferland/Bennett/{Poirier

Agostino/Backlund/Grant

Bouma/Stajan/Hamilton

 

Gio/Brodie

Ham/Nakladal

Wides/Eng

 

Anderson

Poulin

How do you propose we get Anderson from ANA as he is a RFA ? Term sheet him ?

[The_People1]

As for last season, it was a fluke. The Flames stuck to the plan and continued with the rebuild despite last seasons success. Kudos to management for that.

I would say our rebuilding efforts are far from finished. Should we lower our expectation about winning, I hope not and I don't think we want the players to lower their expectations either.

Most fans have their own idea of what constitutes a rebuild and when one is over.

 

Personally, when I heard "5 year rebuild", I envisioned 5 years with no play-off hockey at all.

 

I still feel the same way, as it's only year 3.

A rebuild is like a remodeling of your home, along the way certain things become more important to you and other things are just things that have to come first.

I think I know the answer. The rebuild ends at Stajan.

The rebuild is the deconstruction when you strip it down to its studs, find a core to build around and then start to build it back up.

 

Flames are past this IMO. 

 

Would everyone agree the Florida Panthers are done rebuilding?  I say yes.

 

Moreover, what if they take a step back next season?  Would you then say that this season was a fluke?  That they should lower their expectations?  That they are only in year 4 of a 5 year rebuild?  That their rebuild isn't over until they've effectively replaced their 4th line Center Derek Mackenzie with someone more legit?  I say no no no and no.

 

The Panther's rebuild is over the moment they were able to climb out of the basement and enter the playoffs again.  They will be playing for the Cup this year and that should, by definition of action, not be considered rebuilding anymore.

 

When are the Oilers done rebuilding?  It doesn't matter how many years, how many 1st overalls, how many core players they amass, how many goalies they ruin, etc.  The moment the Oilers make the playoffs, their rebuild is officially over.  It's really the only tangible measure we can have.

[JTech780]

Ramo done for the year with torn ACL out 6-8 months.

[The_People1]

Ramo done for the year with torn ACL out 6-8 months.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/flames-g-ramo-tears-acl-ending-season-1.439284

 

Yups.  Confirmed. 

 

I feel bad for him because he was playing the best hockey of his career.  He was getting into his groove and right when he got into rhythm, his NHL career may be over.  It's very difficult to see any team give him a contract offer over the summer considering his injury.  His stats also aren't impressive so, it's a tough break for Ramo.

[cross16]

I also feel bad for Ramo. I think he's been solid the last few months and with it being such a bad looking UFA market this summer for goalies I think he would have garned interest but now he is likely going to only get 1 year "prove it" offers if he gets offers at all. ACL injuries heal and goalies can come back from it, but its a huge risk for an NHL team to take knowing that you won't get to see him play at all before you sign him. 

 

Real tough break and also takes away the Flames backup plan for goaltending this offseason. They are going to need to be aggressive to fill that spot. 

[travel_dude]

http://www.tsn.ca/flames-g-ramo-tears-acl-ending-season-1.439284

 

Yups.  Confirmed. 

 

I feel bad for him because he was playing the best hockey of his career.  He was getting into his groove and right when he got into rhythm, his NHL career may be over.  It's very difficult to see any team give him a contract offer over the summer considering his injury.  His stats also aren't impressive so, it's a tough break for Ramo.

 

It's bad for us, but at the same time takes the training wheels off for BT.  It means we have no other choice but to pursue a starting goalie this summer (or sooner is possible).  We could wait till his recovery and sign him as a backup for $2.5m at most.  Both risky and expensive.  But, no other team will touch him.  Unless Ortio proves himself to be a capable backup, I doubt we see him on the Flames next season.  He wasn't any better or worse than Hiller against Anaheim.  But that is not saying much.

 

We can talk all around the roster about holes, but clearly the goalie positions are the gaping holes.  We could have 6-top 4 defenders and still lose with what we have left.

[The_People1]

It's bad for us, but at the same time takes the training wheels off for BT.  It means we have no other choice but to pursue a starting goalie this summer (or sooner is possible).  We could wait till his recovery and sign him as a backup for $2.5m at most.  Both risky and expensive.  But, no other team will touch him.  Unless Ortio proves himself to be a capable backup, I doubt we see him on the Flames next season.  He wasn't any better or worse than Hiller against Anaheim.  But that is not saying much.

 

We can talk all around the roster about holes, but clearly the goalie positions are the gaping holes.  We could have 6-top 4 defenders and still lose with what we have left.

 

Goaltending in hockey is like a Quarterback in football.  What's the point of having Pro Bowl receivers when your QB sucks.  It will make your Pro Bowl receivers look like garbage.

 

It's too bad Gillies lost one year of development.  He is still arguably 2 years away.  Mason Macdonald had an iffy performance at the WJC and he needs some work on his game.  Ortio hasn't looked good all season in either the NHL or AHL.  All this fuss about losing Ortio on waivers earlier this season, ultimately causing Ramo to get sent down to the AHL and messing up the goaltending situation early into the season, was all for not.  No one would take any of our goalies on waivers right now.

[JTech780]

Pat Steinberg (@Fan960Steinberg) tweeted at 11:19 AM on Wed, Feb 17, 2016:

Asked whether he'd like to be back in Calgary next year, Ramo said "we'll see, it's not a bad option".

Wow he seems pumped about the idea of coming back to Calgary next year. (Sarcasm font required here)

[rickross]

Tough pill for Ramo but it's about time we gave Ortio a solid look. The dominoes just keep falling for the Flames in 2016. I'm still hoping this all turns out to be a blessing in disguise, either we discover a gem in Ortio or our D really steps up and solidifies our defensive game.

[The_People1]

Tough pill for Ramo but it's about time we gave Ortio a solid look. The dominoes just keep falling for the Flames in 2016. I'm still hoping this all turns out to be a blessing in disguise, either we discover a gem in Ortio or our D really steps up and solidifies our defensive game.

 

Or, Hiller and Ortio help us draft Auston Matthews.

[DirtyDeeds]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-goaltender-karri-ramo-out-for-remainder-of-season/

 

6-8 months

 

[rickross]

Or, Hiller and Ortio help us draft Auston Matthews.

One can dream! Gaudreau, Matthews , Monahan and Bennett up front is a serious young core of forwards

[Carty]

Bad news, but not surprising...   It looked like it was serious right from when it happened...

 

I hope for Ramo's sake that he recovers fully, and that there is not permanent damage that affects his career...

 

This pic is the definition of pain...

 

[s4xon]

Bad news, but not surprising...   It looked like it was serious right from when it happened...

 

I hope for Ramo's sake that he recovers fully, and that there is not permanent damage that affects his career...

 

This pic is the definition of pain...

 

 

Trainer:  "Where does it hurt, Karri!?"

 

Ramo:  "......youreleanaonmhdf........"

 

Trainer:  leans in -  "What was that??"

 

Ramo:  "....you're...leaning...on...my...testic - uhhhhh!.."

 

 

[Zirakzigil]

Terrible luck for Ramo. Feel bad for the guy. 

[rickross]

It really is too bad for Ramo, this will really force the Flames to ramp up a solution to their goalie situation. Final 25 games of the year...what a stark contrast to last seasons epic push. I wonder if the Flames will limit Ortios workload to give them some leverage during negotiations?

[jjgallow]

I've never been a Ramo fan, but when I see that picture, I find myself rooting for him.  I sure hope he recovers.

 

He's honestly not a #1 on a top team, but if he recovers well he could be a #1 on a lower team, or a backup on top team.  Which, I give him full credit, is far more than I ever imagined he'd be.

 

For the Flames....there's a reason teams don't just play one goaltender all season.   This would be one of those reasons.

 

Especially, when there's no real need.  But only ThePeople's going to get me on that...