Goaltending

[jjgallow]

So did Dubnyk and Roy..just sayin...sv% is very misleading stat, right up there with +/- . Doesn't change the fact he was still easily #3 on our future prospects chart behind Ortio and Gilies..same spot Roy occupies now. I have no doubts he will be a competent nhl goalie one day, but people in here are acting like we traded Patrick Roy

 

I was not under the impression that we all had no doubts Brossoit would  be a competent NHL goalie.  If you are are, you may actually be the most optimistic of us all.  Which adds to the confusion.

 

Dubnyk absolutely did not compare.   When Dubnyk was Brossoit's age, he was still in the WHL.  The next year, he tried for the AHL, posted a 0.855, and was relegated to the ECHL.  This would be the equivalent of Brossoit spending all of NEXT year in the ECHL.

 

The exact same is true of Olivier Roy.

 

Brossoit is a far superior prospect to either one of them.  That does Not mean, by any stretch, that he is a Lock for the NHL.

 

 

If Brossoit becomes a backup for the Oilers, Feaster will be reminded of this trade often.

 

But if Brossoit becomes an above-average starter for the Oilers, or worse...dominant....

 

Feaster can expect to be tarred, feathered, and run out of town.   There would be no mercy.

[phoenix66]

We say "Clause", but we don't really mean it.  Like, Iginla had a no trade clause.  But a mutual agreement can change it.  

 

The Flames and Ramo probably had a verbal agreement that he could leave after the first year if both sides agreed to it.   

 

Let's be honest:  So far, the Ramo project is a failure.   He's being paid to be a starting goaltender, and he's not.

 

Would the Flames let him go to the KHL next year?  Absolutely.  Would the KHL accept him?  Absolutely.

 

The only question mark is if Ramo would rather stay and collect his money here.   My guess is he's far too proud to do this, but if he gets roots in Calgary, then yes....he could stay.  

 

 

I agree.    But neither are Berra or Ramo.

 

 

What for?  You mean two full seasons in the AHL?   Maybe for a guy out of junior, but not for a guy acoomplished out of SM-Liiga.  He's already outplayed Berra in the AHL, and we know Berra's likely better than Ramo.

 

He'll be 23...that's old enough for a shot in the NHL.  He's shutting out teams in the AHL, and getting better every game.

 

 

 

I kind of think he has two years left, but with the numbers he's posting....there is no doubt he could play in the AHL right now. 

 

I think it is safe to say that he will never play in Alaska.    

 

Some would suggest he goes straight to the NHL.  I think the NHL, and Alaska, are a bit extreme.  But the NHL is the more likely of the two.

 

He has two years left, I believe.   Which is a problem, because he doesn't have two years left of development in US College.

My bad.. I didn't know you were sitting in on their contract negotiation, that changes everything.

They cant just simply"let him go"..thats why kovalchuk had to retire, his numbers are on the books for 1 more year no matter what unless we trade him.

I cant explain why hes not getting played, his games have been ok, but I would not be surprised to see him sent down for playing time soon and jmac back as Berras backup..playing like a backup this time. (Yes..taking play time from Ortio) until he somehow gets the coaches confidence again

Are we really going into this "non nhl goalie" stuff again??

So ortio rocked his last leage..so did Ramo and Berra..how is one more significant than the other?

Yes..2 years as the ahl starter...lets not forget ortio has most of our future defense in front of him..probably getting less 3rd and 4th chances. When he comes up he needs to be fully entrenched and ready..one season and he could lose his confidence in one game. We have the luxury of time..we need to use it

No way Gillies goes straight to the nhl..its widely believed Gibson is a better goaltender and he certainly wasnt ready to step right in

[phoenix66]

I was not under the impression that we were all expecting Brossoit to be a competent NHL goalie.  If you are are more than confient of this, you may actually be the most optimistic of us all.  Which adds to the confusion.

 

Dubnyk absolutely did not.   When Dubnyk was Brossoit's age, he was still in the WHL.  The next year, he tried for the AHL, posted a 0.855, and was relegated to the ECHL.  This would be the equivalent of Brossoit spending all of NEXT year in the ECHL.

 

The exact same is true of Olivier Roy.

 

Brossoit is a far superior prospect to either one of them.  That does Not mean, by any stretch, that he is a Lock for the NHL.

 

 

If Brossoit becomes a backup for the Oilers, Feaster will be reminded of this trade often.

 

But if Brossoit becomes an above-average starter for the Oilers, or worse...dominant....

 

Feaster can expect to be tarred, feathered, and run out of town.   There would be no mercy.

I was using their time in the Ahl as comparison. Aside from his 4 game year he posted .904, .906, .915

Roy posted .937,.902 and had an .897 going this year

And I said competent..not a star.. could be a backup, might be a starter, but I do think he will one day see nhl time. My main point in ut all is it was a pretty insignificant loss to us and we got the best player in the deal

[jjgallow]

My bad.. I didn't know you were sitting in on their contract negotiation, that changes everything.

 

easy there champ.  No reason to get upset.

 

Are we really going into this "non nhl goalie" stuff again??

 

let's not

 

So ortio rocked his last leage..so did Ramo and Berra..how is one more significant than the other?

 

No they didn't.  But we've been over that a million times too.

 

The difference, for the last time, is age.  A huge, significant difference in age.

 

Yes..2 years as the ahl starter...lets not forget ortio has most of our future defense in front of him..probably getting less 3rd and 4th chances.

 

I feel like we're going around in circles.  Reto Berra and JMac both had the same defense in from of them with the Heat. Compare their performance to Ortio.  He's clearly ahead of them both.   And for the record, the Flames future defense is completely lacking.  Ortio's had games where he's stopped 40+ shots.

 

When he comes up he needs to be fully entrenched and ready..one season and he could lose his confidence in one game. We have the luxury of time..we need to use it

 

I agree with this.  But the reallity is that the Flames are desperate in the goaltending department.   More than likely, they will call Ortio up this year.   I would Prefer if they hold off this year, and bring him up next year.  I probably won't get may way.   They'll probably rush him.   Like it or not, they'll test him out in the NHL next year.  If he does well, he'll stay there.   And I'm okay with this, because he is already a very experienced goaltender.   As evident by his performance with the Heat.

 

No way Gillies goes straight to the nhl..its widely believed Gibson is a better goaltender and he certainly wasnt ready to step right in

 

You're probably right.  I'm just explaining to you that it's more likely than him going to the ECHL. 

 

As per the post you're responding to, he is likely AHL bound.  It would be a huge backwards step for him to go to the ECHL.  US College is much stronger than the ECHL, and he's dominating already.   

 

IMHO, it is a coin toss between Gillies and Gibson.  Ortio is within range as well.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Mac's in net tonight for the heat, Ortio is always getting the 1st of back to back games.

Sooner or later he should play both games to get used to it. But I cant complain on how they're handling him doing it like they're he's still undefeated.

[C_worthy]

Gillies has two more years of college, but I will bet dollars to donuts he goes pro before then.  And there is no way he goes to Alaska unless he shows up in camp with a pot belly and a smoke in his mouth.

 

As for the Brossoit trade, Brossoit has (like any decent goalie prospect) a 10 - 20% chance of being an NHL starter.  If he makes it, good on him.  But it was a good trade by Feaster regardless because, with Berra and Ramo getting NHL starts, and Ortio getting AHL starts, and Gillies quite possibly (probably IMO) here next year, Brossoit was not going to get the chance in the Flames organization.

 

If Brossoit becomes a backup, that does NOT make it a bad trade for the Flames

[s4xon]

Gillies has two more years of college, but I will bet dollars to donuts he goes pro before then.  And there is no way he goes to Alaska unless he shows up in camp with a pot belly and a smoke in his mouth.

 

As for the Brossoit trade, Brossoit has (like any decent goalie prospect) a 10 - 20% chance of being an NHL starter.  If he makes it, good on him.  But it was a good trade by Feaster regardless because, with Berra and Ramo getting NHL starts, and Ortio getting AHL starts, and Gillies quite possibly (probably IMO) here next year, Brossoit was not going to get the chance in the Flames organization.

 

If Brossoit becomes a backup, that does NOT make it a bad trade for the Flames

 

Not only that, but Smid was a decent pickup.  He fit a need, he's been doing an amazing job thus far.  I don't find myself cringing when he gets the puck, and for the most part his outlet pass is decent as well.  He doesn't make many boneheaded moves.  He's only a -1 in 6 games with the club.  You can't ask for more when trading 2 depth prospects.

 

Brossoit would't have fit the plans going forward.  Ramo being the key, and when he leaves or if he decides to stay.

[jjgallow]

On Brossoit....

 

Here's the thing:  He has more value than that.  

 

Right now, there are only two goalies in our system who have value, and also fair trade value:

 

Berra and Gillies.

 

None of the other goaltenders in our system would have given us a fair return.

 

In a re-build, imho the right thing to do would have been to trade Berra.

 

Who is, and let's be honest...either an AHL starter or an NHL backup.  But he could have gotten us a nice return.

 

Brossoit could have been loaned out to another AHL team.

 

At the end of the day, I would guess that we'll be okay here.   I agree with the 10 - 20 % chance of him being an NHL starter.

 

But as a GM, that should be too high of a risk.  That's a career-ender every 5 trades.

 

Probably nothing will come of this.   But what I don't like is that I believe Feaster incorrectly put 1% odds on Brossoit, solely on his 9-0 AHL loss.  Just like what was done with Ortio.

 

Chances are he'll get away with it.  But if Brossoit comes up big, there will be no mercy from the fans.  And there shouldn't be.

[cross16]

On Brossoit....

Here's the thing: He has more value than that.

Right now, there are only two goalies in our system who have value, and also fair trade value:

Berra and Gillies.

None of the other goaltenders in our system would have given us a fair return.

In a re-build, imho the right thing to do would have been to trade Berra.

Who is, and let's be honest...either an AHL starter or an NHL backup. But he could have gotten us a nice return.

Brossoit could have been loaned out to another AHL team.

At the end of the day, I would guess that we'll be okay here. I agree with the 10 - 20 % chance of him being an NHL starter.

But as a GM, that should be too high of a risk. That's a career-ender every 5 trades.

Probably nothing will come of this. But what I don't like is that I believe Feaster incorrectly put 1% odds on Brossoit, solely on his 9-0 AHL loss. Just like what was done with Ortio.

Chances are he'll get away with it. But if Brossoit comes up big, there will be no mercy from the fans. And there shouldn't be.

How is an NHL backup/AHL starter going to fetch you a nice return? Every team has one or two of those.

Edit: for the record I'm not necessarily calling Bera that I'm just pointing out a goalie at that level doesn't have trade value unless there is a lot of upside there.

[jjgallow]

How is an NHL backup/AHL starter going to fetch you a nice return? Every team has one or two of those.

 

Inuries.  Potentially.

 

Good point....my real issue is how we got ourselves in a position with these many goalies to begin with.

[travel_dude]

Inuries.  Potentially.

 

Good point....my real issue is how we got ourselves in a position with these many goalies to begin with.

The point of Brossoit being part of the package was that he was the big piece of the trade.  Horak by himself wouldn't get you Smid.

I doubt Brossoit ever gets more than a handfull of games for the Oilers.  Maybe someday, he will show that he can play at the NHL level, but I doubt it will be with the Oilers; they will trade him for parts.  He will probably end up somewhere east, and get lit up on a nightly basis, then back to the ECHL. 

[Zirakzigil]

Right now, there are only two goalies in our system who have value, and also fair trade value:

 

Berra and Gillies.

Berra had zero trade value and still has zero trade value, most people didnt even know he was still a Blues prospect before the trade. The only reason Berra is getting a shot in the NHL is because Hartley was a coach in the Swiss league and told Feaster to give him a chance.

[jjgallow]

Berra had zero trade value and still has zero trade value, most people didnt even know he was still a Blues prospect before the trade. The only reason Berra is getting a shot in the NHL is because Hartley was a coach in the Swiss league and told Feaster to give him a chance.

 

That's a bit harsh, even for me.

 

And I can be very harsh, lol.

[SheriforPM]

Here is the thing. 

Before Kipper was traded to the Flames, no one and I mean NO ONE would have looked at his junior numbers and proclaimed him a saviour, let alone an NHL starter.

To be able to say Ortio or Broissoit is better than goalie A or B is ridiculous.

Unless you are a time traveller or have a crystal ball, can we please put this argument to rest?

 

We have Berra and Ramo with the big boys. Probably won't change for the rest of the season, but who knows?

 

The rest of the arguments is pure conjecture. No one knows who will shine and who will crap the bed.

[kehatch]

Berra is getting the start again. 10 of 11 starts. Crazy and totally inappropriate.

[Zirakzigil]

That's a bit harsh, even for me.

 

And I can be very harsh, lol.

Its fact. Sorry but deal with it.

 

Berra is getting the start again. 10 of 11 starts. Crazy and totally inappropriate.

Agreed. The knock I have against Hartley is his favoritism, and its pretty huge.

[jjgallow]

Before Kipper was traded to the Flames, no one and I mean NO ONE would have looked at his junior numbers and proclaimed him a saviour, let alone an NHL starter.

 

Not true, imho.

 

 

This is what got him drafted, and it could have been a lot higher based on his performance.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=Jr.%20A%20SM-liiga&season=1994#goaltending

 

This is what got him into the AHL:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=Liiga&season=1998#goaltending

 

He followed that up by being arguably the best player in the World Cup:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=WC&season=1998#goaltending

 

Previous to being traded to the Flames, he was the 14th best goatender in the NHL, and still very young:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=NHL&season=2001#goaltending

 

 

Then, he had One kind of bad sophomore season.   Which made him available for trade, as the Sharks had Nabakov.

 

 

I'm not trying to go after Berra or Ramo or anybody.   But it wouldn't be fair to put their performance anywhere near this category.

 

But statistically, Kipper definitely stood out on the radar.   People tend to give up on goalies easy.  That's all that happened here.

[jjgallow]

Its fact. Sorry but deal with it.

 

It's not fact.  I'm not about to entirely disagree with it, but the bottom line is that Berra would have been easier to move.

 

We're on the same side here, btw.

 

For a Tim Jackman trade, for instance, they could have thrown Berra in.  Maybe for free, maybe for an upgrade on the draft pick.  Anaheim or some similar team likely would have absorbed him.   

 

Would they absorb JMac?  No.

 

Brossoit?  Maybe, but this would be a bad move on our part

 

Ramo?  Not a chance with his contract.

 

Ortio?  Hells ya.   But this would be insanely stupid on our part.

 

Gilles?    They would have paid top dollar.  But IMHO, I'd rather have Gillies than anyone's first round pick.

 

So, I'm saying that they should have moved Berra, imho.

 

I'm pretty sure we're of similar general opinion on the goaltender situation....so this is a rather pointless arguement.

 

But, it's not my first.  It's still not fact.   Even if I sort of agree with you.

[The_People1]

Between Ramo and Berra, i think Berra is showing the most ceiling potential with his slightly unorthodoxed style of goaltending.  Ramo looks a bit slow, yet technically sounder than Berra at the moment.

 

As we move pieces for younger assets, i think it's important to keep the two goalie system so one goalie doesn't completely wear out and lose all confidence.  Spread the losses around.

 

So that said, we need to start playing Ramo for a 3 or 4 game stretch starting right away. IMO.

[Zirakzigil]

It's not fact.  I'm not about to entirely disagree with it, but the bottom line is that Berra would have been easier to move.

 

Maybe on waivers, but he still has zero trade value. Ramo, Mac and Berra all have zero trade value at this point. There is simply too many options available via trade that are better.

[Carty]

we need to start playing Ramo for a 3 or 4 game stretch starting right away. IMO.

 

It's overdue...   Not to slight Berra's efforts, but the Flames need to see what Ramo can bring for a stretch like that...

[Louis23]

The way Hartley has handled Ramo is just a joke. Not like Berra won us 10 games in his starts and had good stats. His stats are horrible, even if he has been 'okay' and 'good' at times. NO reason to treat him as if he had been a stud. Ramo needs his chance, otherwise we're gonna kill his confidence and his rhytmn. Totally stupid, and I'd be pissed if I were Feaster, who went out and got him to come to North-America. IT was Mac in the beginning, now Berra. Ramo has really been treated unfairly.

[cross16]

The funny thing with Ramo is he was actually starting to improve before he essentially got benched. Not improving to and exciting degree but enough that as a coach you'd be a bit intrigued. As mentioned though Hartley really has his favorites and it's clear it's Berra. I agree it's a bit ridiculous especially after they gave Ramo the deal they did.

[jjgallow]

The funny thing with Ramo is he was actually starting to improve before he essentially got benched. Not improving to and exciting degree but enough that as a coach you'd be a bit intrigued. As mentioned though Hartley really has his favorites and it's clear it's Berra. I agree it's a bit ridiculous especially after they gave Ramo the deal they did.

 

I'm going to point to the stats...

http://flames.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8471403&season=20132014&view=gamelog

 

I know what you're going to say, lol..

 

You know what I'm going to say..

 

Compelled to post the stats anyway, sorry

 

(but hey, I didn't do a Danny Taylor comparison...so that's good....maybe I'm cured?)

 

or....

[jjgallow]

I have a novel idea....

 

You know what we should do?

 

We should ask the KHL who they think their best goalie is right now, and trade some draft picks for him!

 

Looks like it's this guy:

http://www.hrsport.net/vijesti/467903/zimski-sportovi-khl/barry-brust-proglasen-najboljim-vratarom-khl-a-u-listopadu/

 

Nearly identical stats  to Kari Ramo in the KHL last year, pretty impressive!  IMHO, this guy is the Best Goaltender Not in the NHL right now!!

 

So, if no NHL team holds their rights, is there some way that we can still give up draft picks for them?