In with the new.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

no,

 

you can do Kadri, Backlund, Zary and Pospisil. 
The other center jobs aren't fully spoken for or are quite flexible if they pushed their way into the jobs. 

Pospisil played top 6 minutes and his minutes were well used.  Playing him with energy guys that get 8-10 minutes doesn't use his skills right.  You want someone different than Rooney at 4C which I get.  Well sign or trade for a 4C Or promote one.

[travel_dude]

I should point out that some of the issues with the roster is that we have too many vets for a re-tooling (or whatever) team.  We are stuck between icing an exciting team and needing to revamp the roster with kids growing into NHL roles.  Backlund and Coleman are two guys that you would want on a team for the playoffs.  Specialized or offer work ethic you need to move on.  But they are using up two spots that you could use to shelter players and get them high performing as a line.  No point in playing Huberdeau and Kadri on the same line because you want them mentoring the kids.  Kadri did it well.  Huberdeau started to help Sharky later in the season.  

 

So we are stuck with a roster that defies convention.  Room for Zary and Pospisil in the top 9.  Sharky best used as a C because we have no other candidates roght now.  Maybe Zary could take that on with Huberdeau and Sharky, but Mantha may be better suited short term on RW.  Zary-Kadri-Pospisil seems the best option, where Pospisil is developing as a RW.  Maybe Mantha is best used with Backlund and Kuzmenko with Huberdeau.  That will come.  But it points to the strange top end of the roster.  It leaves Coronato, Pelletier, Lomberg, Stromgren, Klapka, Rooney all firghting for three spots in the lineup.  

[jjgallow]

38 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

I should point out that some of the issues with the roster is that we have too many vets for a re-tooling (or whatever) team.  We are stuck between icing an exciting team and needing to revamp the roster with kids growing into NHL roles.  Backlund and Coleman are two guys that you would want on a team for the playoffs.  Specialized or offer work ethic you need to move on.  But they are using up two spots that you could use to shelter players and get them high performing as a line.  No point in playing Huberdeau and Kadri on the same line because you want them mentoring the kids.  Kadri did it well.  Huberdeau started to help Sharky later in the season.  

 

So we are stuck with a roster that defies convention.  Room for Zary and Pospisil in the top 9.  Sharky best used as a C because we have no other candidates roght now.  Maybe Zary could take that on with Huberdeau and Sharky, but Mantha may be better suited short term on RW.  Zary-Kadri-Pospisil seems the best option, where Pospisil is developing as a RW.  Maybe Mantha is best used with Backlund and Kuzmenko with Huberdeau.  That will come.  But it points to the strange top end of the roster.  It leaves Coronato, Pelletier, Lomberg, Stromgren, Klapka, Rooney all firghting for three spots in the lineup.  

 

or maybe it's not a re-tool.    It's a rebuild.

 

when there's almost nothing in your pipeline that's NHL ready, you gotta have vets cause what else ya gonna do.  And most rebuilds start this way.

 

Vets who do well may be sold off (at trade deadline or earlier) for more picks.   And equilibrium is only reached when we have talent coming out of the pipeline that can easily replace them.   IMHO that's a couple years out.   Like you mentioned earlier, things start to get really interesting 2026.   This is a marathon.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Pospisil played top 6 minutes and his minutes were well used.  Playing him with energy guys that get 8-10 minutes doesn't use his skills right.  You want someone different than Rooney at 4C which I get.  Well sign or trade for a 4C Or promote one.

I wouldn't normally want the Top6 developing guys on the 4th line and I guess I'm thinking roll them in positions gain experience. If it was a full roster and not a rebuild I'd say develop them in the AHL as centers. But if we don't care about winning and just care about development. Also, in my scenario, Lomberg is the only one that isn't the same skill level as the other two. For me, I want guys to develop with like skilled players, and so I understand not wanting them to develop on the 4th or with 4th liners. 
 

im only suggesting they start to try one or both Zary and Pospisil as centers. The further we keep them away from playing the position the less likely we have a center in them. We don't need them to be centres, but if we got centers in them, we really would only need a true #1 and possibly a #4C. 
 

really the question is, when is it time to start developing that? How long is it ok for a center to not play the position before they are just wingers and can never go back? Are Zary and Pospisil the future or are they placeholders?

[travel_dude]

42 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I wouldn't normally want the Top6 developing guys on the 4th line and I guess I'm thinking roll them in positions gain experience. If it was a full roster and not a rebuild I'd say develop them in the AHL as centers. But if we don't care about winning and just care about development. Also, in my scenario, Lomberg is the only one that isn't the same skill level as the other two. For me, I want guys to develop with like skilled players, and so I understand not wanting them to develop on the 4th or with 4th liners. 
 

im only suggesting they start to try one or both Zary and Pospisil as centers. The further we keep them away from playing the position the less likely we have a center in them. We don't need them to be centres, but if we got centers in them, we really would only need a true #1 and possibly a #4C. 
 

really the question is, when is it time to start developing that? How long is it ok for a center to not play the position before they are just wingers and can never go back? Are Zary and Pospisil the future or are they placeholders?

 

I think both were initially viewed as good prospects but not top 6 NHL'ers.  Doesn't matter, they will play to their skill and adaptation allows.  I always thought Zary was more like a Backlund than a Kadri; responsible play, like he was at the WJC.  I could see him developing as a C, but I think it's a bit much to start him there until he is comfortable there.  

 

The problem with the roster is there is no development spots.  4th line is as close to it you can get.  Or you have a Coronato spending 8 minutes in the 2nd line.  So, you can use the 4th line with Lombo to create a line that graduates some players over the year.  You could bump up Lombo to Backlund's line if there was an injury or need for energy, but I see him as the ideal 4th liner.  You don't worry about him out there, so the 4th line becomes less of an issue.  He will protect any kids.  The guy is ripped, but also he has no fear of anyone.  He might do well to avoid the Lucic's of the world, but those guys only fiight 6' and up.  They don't want to get a little guy beating the snot out of their lower facial area.  LOL.  

 

I don't know what the solution is.  We have a few guys I think we should keep, like Kuz, Kadri and Sharky.  The others not listed are not for their lack of team effort or good ethics that they bring.  Or even their skill sets.  It comes down to the best ice times available being used and by the time we are a contender, they will be slowing down.  Guys you need in the playoffs, but not while you are toiling away.  Same reason why it didn't make sense to keep Markstrom.  The next 3 years is not when we have to compete.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Are Zary and Pospisil the future or are they placeholders?

 

I don't see why Zary and Pospisil cannot be long term 2nd/3rd line Centers.  We should play them there as soon as next season in my opinion.  

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

no,

 

you can do Kadri, Backlund, Zary and Pospisil. 
The other center jobs aren't fully spoken for or are quite flexible if they pushed their way into the jobs. 

 

That means playing Pospisil maybe 8-minutes a night.  Too little.  Let Rooney have that role.

 

Trade Kadri.

 

Go with Backlund, Zary, Pospisil, Rooney.

[travel_dude]

It's funny how rumours get started.  One guy says the cost for Ras in trade is stupid high.  The next guy says rumour is Ras being looked at seriously by Utah.  Third guys says talks heavy on the trade.  Same bunch that repeat Eklund's fantasies as being a reality.

[robrob74]

21 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

That means playing Pospisil maybe 8-minutes a night.  Too little.  Let Rooney have that role.

 

Trade Kadri.

 

Go with Backlund, Zary, Pospisil, Rooney.

I don't agree necessarily,, that's only if you're not rolling lines. If you're rolling, you can find him time. They have to develop at least one of them into a center. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I don't agree necessarily,, that's only if you're not rolling lines. If you're rolling, you can find him time. They have to develop at least one of them into a center. 

 

You think we are a team that can successfully roll four lines?  It's going to be a shortened bench 60% of the season.

[robrob74]

47 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

You think we are a team that can successfully roll four lines?  It's going to be a shortened bench 60% of the season.

like I said they will have to do things differently to be developing guys properly. They need to develop some future centers. We don't even know what the roster will look like and who will play with who. 

[cberg]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You think we are a team that can successfully roll four lines?  It's going to be a shortened bench 60% of the season.

I guess that depends on whether the coach is only focusing on winning or trying to maximize the team’s development.  Doing the later is winning for the players as well as “winning” for the team.

[conundrumed]

I'm kind of assuming it'll be Zary-Kadri-Pospisil again.

I also assume Sharangovich will be the one moving to center, maybe Huberdeau-Sharky-Mantha/Kuzmenko.

Mantha/Kuzmenko-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Rooney-Lomberg.

We tend to forget that Pelletier's call up 2 seasons ago instantly gave us a threatening 4th line for a couple of games until Sutter moved him up.

I think a few have really downgraded Pelletier for being injured long term. Like a reverse recency bias.

He should be able to add a lot to the roster with his 200' game.

 

[cross16]

16 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You think we are a team that can successfully roll four lines?  It's going to be a shortened bench 60% of the season.

I would argue the opposite. The flames have decent depth it’s their top end that’s lacking. The type of roster you want to roll 4 lines with. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I'm kind of assuming it'll be Zary-Kadri-Pospisil again.

I also assume Sharangovich will be the one moving to center, maybe Huberdeau-Sharky-Mantha/Kuzmenko.

Mantha/Kuzmenko-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Rooney-Lomberg.

We tend to forget that Pelletier's call up 2 seasons ago instantly gave us a threatening 4th line for a couple of games until Sutter moved him up.

I think a few have really downgraded Pelletier for being injured long term. Like a reverse recency bias.

He should be able to add a lot to the roster with his 200' game.

 

 

Sharky played most of the season at C, did he not?  

How is Lombergini on RW?

I think they tried Pelletier there, but it may have been higher in the lineup.

 

 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sharky played most of the season at C, did he not?  

How is Lombergini on RW?

I think they tried Pelletier there, but it may have been higher in the lineup.

 

 

Lomberg can play either side similarly.

I think you have to put Mantha with Huby-Sharky as Kuzmenko is a vacuum defensively. Better to have Backs-Coleman cover him.

[cberg]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I'm kind of assuming it'll be Zary-Kadri-Pospisil again.

I also assume Sharangovich will be the one moving to center, maybe Huberdeau-Sharky-Mantha/Kuzmenko.

Mantha/Kuzmenko-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Rooney-Lomberg.

We tend to forget that Pelletier's call up 2 seasons ago instantly gave us a threatening 4th line for a couple of games until Sutter moved him up.

I think a few have really downgraded Pelletier for being injured long term. Like a reverse recency bias.

He should be able to add a lot to the roster with his 200' game.

 

Coronato?

[conundrumed]

15 hours ago, cberg said:

Coronato?

Was considering him the whole time. Just couldn't place him currently. So I kinda left it as, "further development" as he's just 21. Though as I always preach, one great offseason, and you've got yourself a whole new player.

Not that I'm not cheering him to come in and give Conroy some things to figure out. Pretty much like Lucas Raymond did to Yzerman.

If a player comes to camp and kicks the door down, don't play the waiver-eligibility game. That's gotta be the worst feeling in all of sports, and can lead to resentment.

At the same time, bonafide NHLers, regardless of what we think of them, aren't interested in handing their job over to some snot-nosed punk. lol

[cberg]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Was considering him the whole time. Just couldn't place him currently. So I kinda left it as, "further development" as he's just 21. Though as I always preach, one great offseason, and you've got yourself a whole new player.

Not that I'm not cheering him to come in and give Conroy some things to figure out. Pretty much like Lucas Raymond did to Yzerman.

If a player comes to camp and kicks the door down, don't play the waiver-eligibility game. That's gotta be the worst feeling in all of sports, and can lead to resentment.

At the same time, bonafide NHLers, regardless of what we think of them, aren't interested in handing their job over to some snot-nosed punk. lol

In a perfect world, it sounds good and works great.  Unfortunately reality is not always perfect.  Barring injuries, if the team is overloaded with placeholders promising young players often get restricted from deserved opportunities to their detriment.  Example where it happened here-Bennet, not because he didn’t get an opportunity, just not the proper one… getting shuffled around and eventually pissing him off leading to him getting shipped off.  Example where provision was made-Wolf, trading Markstrom and clearing the way by fully committing to him, with results to be seen.  Unless there is a definite plan to ship out several players/UFAs next season at or before the TDL, I’m saying it is a mistake.  

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cberg said:

In a perfect world, it sounds good and works great.  Unfortunately reality is not always perfect.  Barring injuries, if the team is overloaded with placeholders promising young players often get restricted from deserved opportunities to their detriment.  Example where it happened here-Bennet, not because he didn’t get an opportunity, just not the proper one… getting shuffled around and eventually pissing him off leading to him getting shipped off.  Example where provision was made-Wolf, trading Markstrom and clearing the way by fully committing to him, with results to be seen.  Unless there is a definite plan to ship out several players/UFAs next season at or before the TDL, I’m saying it is a mistake.  

Marky was traded because we were not competing anytime soon, and the offer was reasonably good.  We are a few years from needing the present day Markstrom, so what is the value of holding on to him now?  We are building from the net out.

 

Coronato wasn't good enough last year to hold a spot.  He got better as time went on, but if he's being outplayed by vets, it's hard to justify him.  He's not a C/RW, so can't look at options there.  And it's better that we don't play like crap and hope that he improves on a crap team.  I only suggested moving Backlund and Coleman, as they are the finishing pieces for a team.  They are great to have on your team, but you have to have them be willing to sit out or move around to help the new guys.  Put a C on with Backlund, and alternate shifts so they don't get discouraged.  Move Coleman to the 4th for a game to have two wingers learning.  

[cberg]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Marky was traded because we were not competing anytime soon, and the offer was reasonably good.  We are a few years from needing the present day Markstrom, so what is the value of holding on to him now?  We are building from the net out.

 

Coronato wasn't good enough last year to hold a spot.  He got better as time went on, but if he's being outplayed by vets, it's hard to justify him.  He's not a C/RW, so can't look at options there.  And it's better that we don't play like crap and hope that he improves on a crap team.  I only suggested moving Backlund and Coleman, as they are the finishing pieces for a team.  They are great to have on your team, but you have to have them be willing to sit out or move around to help the new guys.  Put a C on with Backlund, and alternate shifts so they don't get discouraged.  Move Coleman to the 4th for a game to have two wingers learning.  

Coronato is good enough to beat out others from last year, probably even this year.  Management brought in multiple new players that likely don't significantly improve the team and act to clog the pipeline.  The Flames have up to 6-7 prospects that could be make the NHL this year but there is little to no room and we will lose several of them for nothing.  Not really rebuilding when you you fail to develop the new guys and they leave for nothing...

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cberg said:

Coronato is good enough to beat out others from last year, probably even this year.  Management brought in multiple new players that likely don't significantly improve the team and act to clog the pipeline.  The Flames have up to 6-7 prospects that could be make the NHL this year but there is little to no room and we will lose several of them for nothing.  Not really rebuilding when you you fail to develop the new guys and they leave for nothing...

 

On D, we only have one player from the AHL really challenging at this point.  Solovyov.  Hanley was a waiver pickup so is not going to stay while Solo gets waived.  Okhotiuk is in Russia.  Brz and Poirier have no NHL experience, so may challenge but are more likely later in the season.  Same with Grush (a little experience).

 

On F, we have Hunt, Pelletier, Schwindt and Duehr needing waivers.  Including Rooney, Hunt and Duehr on the roster has us 13 bodies without considering those three for waiver assignment.  Pelletier, Coronato and Schwindt could all be on the roster with 2 of the other guys waived.  The risk of losing the older players and a younger guy that has yet to cement himself in the roster is low.  

 

It's summer and we have no idea what other moves will be made.  Hard to be critical of a re-tool while it's still in progress.  Losing Valimaki was a hard lesson that the current GM won't risk.  Younger prospect level players get snagged more than role players that are very commonly available at season start.  Rooney's higher salary makes him a good best to pass through waivers anyway.  The dead cap is not any issue.

[sak22]

I only have a fear of losing Pelletier on waivers if that were to occur, everyone else I think clears easily.  Every team has their own Duehr, Schwindt or Solovyov level players.

[tmac70]

8 hours ago, sak22 said:

I only have a fear of losing Pelletier on waivers if that were to occur, everyone else I think clears easily.  Every team has their own Duehr, Schwindt or Solovyov level players.

So if this club is going to be as bad as everyone projects, and Pelletier can't make this roster is he that big of loss

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

So if this club is going to be as bad as everyone projects, and Pelletier can't make this roster is he that big of loss

If this is the roster we run with at this point in summer, I honestly think the club is going to hover around the 9pick again. While that is bad, I think the depth is pretty much the same. Tanev is a big loss for sure, Hanifin too, but I can see us nearing 0.500 hockey. 
 

part of last year was learning the new system and finding where Shaangovich fit, as well as the change over of some players who subbed in for those that left.

 

i get your point, if he can't crack the roster, he's not good enough. I do think there is a bit of a depth issue for where he plays though. 
 

edit:

 

I just looked at the last two months record, I do think we hover around the .450 % mark through the season. The forwards aren't terrible, maybe the D settles in.