Grocery Shopping, aka Team-Building

[cberg]

Now that we've got less than 5 days till the TDL, a couple things seem apparent from the activity to date.  First off, teams seem to be unwilling to give up a young roster player in a trade, especially for a UFA.  These players are cheap, energetic, and improving and key to team success in this Cap-limited environment.  Conroy isn't finished yet, but to date he hasn't obtained a single such player, to the dismay of many. He has brought in some intriguing Junior/AHL prospects, especially Brusctevich and Grushnikov.  With likely Hanifin, and perhaps Markstrom remaining to trade, that probably means most of the discussed returns from teams like the Bruins(Lohrei, Poitras), TBL(Perbix), Colorado(Byram) or NJD(Holtz, Mercer, Bahl, Nemec) will NOT be happening.  That will result in on-the-surface "disappointing" trade returns, although if the amateur scouts do a great job and find some diamonds in the rough, could be great trades.  

 

Here on Monday am, with no action on Hanifin and Markstrom gone quiet, I'm expecting a very disappointing Hanifin return, and strong possibility the Flames keep him as an own rental while making a last-ditch(enhanced) re-signing offer to keep him.  

[cberg]

It is difficult to obtain high-end talent in the NHL, but occasionally an opportunity presents itself, albeit with risk.

 

Case in point is Kuznetsov with the Washington Capitals.  Due to an alleged drug problem, and after going to and coming out of the NHL's Player Assistance program, he has just cleared waivers and was lent to their AHL affiliate.  With a contract of $6.65mm(?) for 1 more year, is this a somewhat risky but perhaps brilliant opportunity to obtain a top-line, 31 year old #1 C?  Washington seems interested in giving him a new opportunity, so would they trade him, along with a pick(ie Monahan), to do so?  Just asking...

[DirtyDeeds]

We are needing:

1. a number #1 center.
2. We need a top  Right winger
3. We need a short term mentor goaltender for Wolf. Must be average or better for a couple of years. (this assumes Wolf can become "the One")

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

We are needing:

1. a number #1 center.
2. We need a top  Right winger
3. We need a short term mentor goaltender for Wolf. Must be average or better for a couple of years. (this assumes Wolf can become "the One")

 

It could be a good reason to keep Markstrom, to mentor. Depends on if he wants to compete. But good to have someone there to help. I think in Kipper's retirement, having someone tell him he needed to do more was a great suggestion, and a mentor. 

 

I dunno if Kuz would be the guy there, but the hope is we draft one soon, or find a way to do it by committee. For the longest time, Kreci wasn't top in points, but led the Bruins until Bergeron took over. And Bergeron is one of those all-round guys, so you hope that you get that, and committee it. 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

We are needing:

1. a number #1 center.
2. We need a top  Right winger
3. We need a short term mentor goaltender for Wolf. Must be average or better for a couple of years. (this assumes Wolf can become "the One")

 

For #3, I think you can take care of that in the summer.  Mentor won't help if Wolf doesn't have it.  We have that issue if Marky still here.

For #1, Sharky has been doing well but is not a #1.  Need that #1 to be developed in what we have (doubtful) or drafted or in trade.

For #2, Sharky might be that guy if we replace him at C.

[cberg]

On 3/4/2024 at 10:44 AM, DirtyDeeds said:

We are needing:

1. a number #1 center.
2. We need a top  Right winger
3. We need a short term mentor goaltender for Wolf. Must be average or better for a couple of years. (this assumes Wolf can become "the One")

3. Believe Vladar can be the mentor, and future 1A, with Wolf 1B.  Vladar did great over an extended ~14 game stretch a couple of years ago, and later off and on while getting limited games.  We should trade Markstrom to pick up 2-3 top end pieces more in line with future window.  Keep in mind, Flames have another couple intriguing goalie prospects in the system too that could develop within the next 2-3 years if Wolf is not the answer.

2. I believe we already have that in-house, either Sharangovich or Coronato.  In addition, Pospisil could continue to evolve like a Tom Wilson.

1. Yes there is a need there that is not developed yet/not in-house.  I believe it could develop from Zary, Sharangovich, draft picks(e.g. Iginla) or perhaps pick up Kuznetsov from Washington for cheap?  Lots of options, no clear fill there atm.  If you build via the Boston model(this year), top line C may not even be an issue?

[cberg]

Have to say it seems that prices did come down, and young, burgeoning players were not available.  The only ones traded were for each other.  
 

Now that the trade deadline is past I’ve definitely been watching the scores hoping we fall down the draft  ranks to be able to get the best possible at the draft, while giving young guys multiple games of experience and incentive to improve.

 

I think the Flames need 1 additional top10 draft pick as I believe it imperative we draft a dynamic, high potential C, along with Tij with those picks.  A high potential D might also work, though I believe the Flames are much better positioned for D, and the top end D will likely be gone by then.  Lidstrom and Iginla would be exciting as a new core base going forward.  
 

now, who do we have to legitimately trade for that pick?  Seems Markstrom is a strong possibility, and perhaps we should consider Anderson as a second option?

[cberg]

With those two trades for picks, the Flames would have over $30mm in cap space so would be poised to pick up a couple high end UFAs, of mid-late 20’s going forward.  

[The_People1]

23 minutes ago, cberg said:

Have to say it seems that prices did come down, and young, burgeoning players were not available.  The only ones traded were for each other.  
 

Now that the trade deadline is past I’ve definitely been watching the scores hoping we fall down the draft  ranks to be able to get the best possible at the draft, while giving young guys multiple games of experience and incentive to improve.

 

I think the Flames need 1 additional top10 draft pick as I believe it imperative we draft a dynamic, high potential C, along with Tij with those picks.  A high potential D might also work, though I believe the Flames are much better positioned for D, and the top end D will likely be gone by then.  Lidstrom and Iginla would be exciting as a new core base going forward.  
 

now, who do we have to legitimately trade for that pick?  Seems Markstrom is a strong possibility, and perhaps we should consider Anderson as a second option?

 

Andersson to OTT, BUF, or ARZ should give us their top 8 pick.  Because I think those three teams are planning to draft a RHS RD anyways.  They are desperate for one.  Saw a rumour OTT might consider trading Chabot for the return of Erik Karlsson.  Rasmus Andersson was also linked to ARZ at the trade deadline.

 

Andersson is a ready product.  A 2/3 on any team.  RHS RD hybrid type D who can play in most situations.

 

We use that pick to draft a RHS RD to replace Andersson.  We buy time essentially.

[travel_dude]

19 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Andersson to OTT, BUF, or ARZ should give us their top 8 pick.  Because I think those three teams are planning to draft a RHS RD anyways.  They are desperate for one.  Saw a rumour OTT might consider trading Chabot for the return of Erik Karlsson.  Rasmus Andersson was also linked to ARZ at the trade deadline.

 

Andersson is a ready product.  A 2/3 on any team.  RHS RD hybrid type D who can play in most situations.

 

We use that pick to draft a RHS RD to replace Andersson.  We buy time essentially.

 

I'm reserving judgement on Andersson.  He is frustrating to watch some nights.  I'm not sure who he should be paired with, but I don't think it's Kylington.  Perhaps it needs to be a rugged stay at home defender, because Ras gets overwhelmed at times.  Weegar needs a skater, because he is good at different things, but when he gets in trouble, he gives it away instead of simple passes.  

 

I think you work on the D we have, look at the prospects we have and build them up.  It may be painful in the short term, but I think we have the makings of a good D core.  Poirier and Morin in the development stage, so next up as puck movers.  Just missing that big heavy shutdown guy that takes what Tanev used to get.  Mean guy.  Gudranson equivalent, so not the type you draft as much as minor trade or UFA signing.  

 

The current age of our D and D prospects aligns to coming out of a 2-3 year rebuild.  All except Weegar under 30 and Weegar is getting better with age for now.  We need more to find the backup/1a/1b goalie to offset or replace Wolf if he can't get there.  And to replace Vladar if this year is more typical of his game.

 

Shop for replacements for Backlund, Mangiapane, Pelletier and Coronato if they don't have it, and the entire 4th line.  Pospisil would be good there (a la Hathaway) of we had a good top 6 player to replace him with.  Determine if Kuzmenko is a 30 goal guy or should be trade bait.

[cberg]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:53 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Andersson to OTT, BUF, or ARZ should give us their top 8 pick.  Because I think those three teams are planning to draft a RHS RD anyways.  They are desperate for one.  Saw a rumour OTT might consider trading Chabot for the return of Erik Karlsson.  Rasmus Andersson was also linked to ARZ at the trade deadline.

 

Andersson is a ready product.  A 2/3 on any team.  RHS RD hybrid type D who can play in most situations.

 

We use that pick to draft a RHS RD to replace Andersson.  We buy time essentially.

Like the idea of trading Anderson and drafting the replacement, buying time.  May be some others in the same boat, but with lessor returns.

[bosn111]

Bumping this thread more to provide a place for considering what the team has when looking at the trade, UFA, and draft threads.

 

Current Flames on contract for next season:

 

LW.                   C.            RW

Huberdeau.    Kadri.      Kuzmenko 

Mangiapane.  Sharangovich Coronato

Coleman           Backlund.    Pospisil

Hunt.                 Zary.          Duehr

                         Rooney

 

No contract AHL knocking on the door. Honzek likely a couple of years out, Kerins and Stromgren need a little work.

 

Ciona may be called up first as he is a better bottom 6 player. Better in a role position than expected to be a go to offensive player.
 

LD.             RD

Hanley.      Weegar

Bahl           Andersson 

                  Miromanov

                  Pachal

 
Brzustewicz, Poirier and Jurmo knocking on the door but may or may not be ready.

 

G

Vladar

 

RFA players (in order of note)

Wolf

Pelletier

Klapka

Solovyov

Kuznetsov

 

UFA to re-sign (in order of note)

 

Kylington

Greer

Gilbert

Dansk (for AHL mentor)

[bosn111]

Based on the above, there are definitely questions about now and the future.

 

On the list I don’t see a true #1 line and even second is a little iffy. Most of our top 6 are complimentary players that could be great given the right player to compliment. Huberdeau is much like a Tanguay, but who is his Iginla? Kadri is definitely a #2 C. Sharangovich, Coronato, Zary, I don’t know if they are really 2nd or first line, depends on team make up. Kuzmenko is best on 2nd with more pp time. Others are third or 4th who can spot duty on 2nd. 
 

Definitely need a play driving C to go with Huberdeau, then decide which shooter between Kuzmenko, Sharangovich, and Coronato best fits. Need a entry LW who can dish the puck to play with Kadri and one of the remaining RW shooters.

 

D is very light now. Even if Kylington comes back, still not screaming scary D. Need at least 1 top 4 LD to fill out.

 

Need to sort out the G situation.

 

The Flames have pieces that on paper could work. Now how do we get the other pieces to complete the puzzle?

[sak22]

25 minutes ago, bosn111 said:

 

 

Ciona may be called up first as he is a better bottom 6 player. Better in a role position than expected to be a go to offensive player.

Not without a strong camp, I was rather disappointed with his first pro season and judging by usage would suggest the team also was.  For forwards who didn't play a game with the Flames last season I would probably say Sam Morton might have a leg up as after he joined he seemed to get quality ice time down the stretch and into the playoffs where Ciona and Kerins were scratches.  If Ciona can't be a regular in a bottom 6 in the AHL he won't ever be an NHL player.

[cberg]

1 hour ago, bosn111 said:

Based on the above, there are definitely questions about now and the future.

 

On the list I don’t see a true #1 line and even second is a little iffy. Most of our top 6 are complimentary players that could be great given the right player to compliment. Huberdeau is much like a Tanguay, but who is his Iginla? Kadri is definitely a #2 C. Sharangovich, Coronato, Zary, I don’t know if they are really 2nd or first line, depends on team make up. Kuzmenko is best on 2nd with more pp time. Others are third or 4th who can spot duty on 2nd. 
 

Definitely need a play driving C to go with Huberdeau, then decide which shooter between Kuzmenko, Sharangovich, and Coronato best fits. Need a entry LW who can dish the puck to play with Kadri and one of the remaining RW shooters.

 

D is very light now. Even if Kylington comes back, still not screaming scary D. Need at least 1 top 4 LD to fill out.

 

Need to sort out the G situation.

 

The Flames have pieces that on paper could work. Now how do we get the other pieces to complete the puzzle?

Nice summary, as you say there are many good pieces but lacking key players to tie it all together, both at C and D.  I believe Kadri plus plus is a solid #2 line, and Backlund plus plus a solid #3 line.  The top and bottom of the lineup needs some work.  Same as the D.  

[cberg]

Just now, cberg said:

Nice summary, as you say there are many good pieces but lacking key players to tie it all together, both at C and D.  I believe Kadri plus plus is a solid #2 line, and Backlund plus plus a solid #3 line.  The top and bottom of the lineup needs some work.  Same as the D.  

On the pick the draft order thread I had the Flames with the unlikely 5 first round picks, trading out Markstrom, Anderson and Weegar.  Yes I know, unlikely.  I did it for the picks, but also to ensure the Flames would be drafting high the next two years.  The D would have to be infilling with FAs.  

[cberg]

No offer for Kylington is a mystery, it seems like a no-brainer.

[tmac70]

16 hours ago, sak22 said:

Not without a strong camp, I was rather disappointed with his first pro season and judging by usage would suggest the team also was.  For forwards who didn't play a game with the Flames last season I would probably say Sam Morton might have a leg up as after he joined he seemed to get quality ice time down the stretch and into the playoffs where Ciona and Kerins were scratches.  If Ciona can't be a regular in a bottom 6 in the AHL he won't ever be an NHL player.

I watched a lot of the Wranglers this season, Ciona was extremely underwhelming and looked so far behind most plays. The Morton Kid loved his game, He was outside of Coronato their best player each night. One prospect I see that's trending the wrong way is Pelltier, just doesn't cut it for me 

[bosn111]

I am glad others are chiming in with what they saw on the Wranglers this year. Living in B.C. makes it difficult to catch many of their games. My assessment of Ciona was based on his perceived skill set. If he isn’t ready, not a big loss.

 

Pelletier faltering likely has to do with the early shoulder injury. Will need time to get back up to speed. Hopefully his mental state hasn’t taken too big of a hit where he avoids contact and has become more fearful of potential future injury.

[robrob74]

16 hours ago, cberg said:

No offer for Kylington is a mystery, it seems like a no-brainer.

 

Listening in on the Fan Podcast, they discussed with Frank and thought it was odd he hasn't signed. I think one of a few things could be happening.

 

1. No Brainer, but does he want more since the Cap is going up?

2. He needs/wants a change of scenery, a fresh start? 

3. He wants to test the market?

4. Is he ready for a full season?

 

Frank seemed to think he wouldn't be worth his previous contract, and so you'd think he'd at least want a one year deal, a show-me contract to up his value?

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Listening in on the Fan Podcast, they discussed with Frank and thought it was odd he hasn't signed. I think one of a few things could be happening.

 

1. No Brainer, but does he want more since the Cap is going up?

2. He needs/wants a change of scenery, a fresh start? 

3. He wants to test the market?

4. Is he ready for a full season?

 

Frank seemed to think he wouldn't be worth his previous contract, and so you'd think he'd at least want a one year deal, a show-me contract to up his value?

 

 

I get the sense this is it. I don't think it's a money thing or a team thing, it's more of a is he ready for a full season and how long is ready to commit for. 

 

My own personal belief but I think he either plays for the Flames or he doesn't play in the NHL. 

[cberg]

5 hours ago, tmac70 said:

I watched a lot of the Wranglers this season, Ciona was extremely underwhelming and looked so far behind most plays. The Morton Kid loved his game, He was outside of Coronato their best player each night. One prospect I see that's trending the wrong way is Pelltier, just doesn't cut it for me 

Agree on Pelletier, after the injury he’s struggled with his game and has not been impressive.  Hopefully he gets it together or he’ll be trade bait…

[tmac70]

As for the grocery list , we don't even have the ingredients to make soup and sandwiches right now. Bahl is a shutdown guy and most likely is hands down an upgrade of what we have in the system. Conroy most definitely will need to add a lot in to make this team even somewhat respectable. 

 

D UFAS- Sjeki, Pesce, Edmundson could be possible. If Anderson leaves then Sjeki will be a huge target IMHO

 

Forwards- Debrusk( 47 points), Duclair(42 points), Stephenson ( 51 points). Someone mentioned Duclair and they are not wrong he does produce, I would be fine with Stephenson as well as a 2-3 Center, he puts up numbers as well. Could Conroy be lurking to make a trade for someone, that's possible as well. We may also lose Mags which is not going to hurt IMHO but that said we don't have anything in minors that's remotely close. 

 

 

 

 

 

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

As for the grocery list , we don't even have the ingredients to make soup and sandwiches right now. Bahl is a shutdown guy and most likely is hands down an upgrade of what we have in the system. Conroy most definitely will need to add a lot in to make this team even somewhat respectable. 

 

D UFAS- Sjeki, Pesce, Edmundson could be possible. If Anderson leaves then Sjeki will be a huge target IMHO

 

Forwards- Debrusk( 47 points), Duclair(42 points), Stephenson ( 51 points). Someone mentioned Duclair and they are not wrong he does produce, I would be fine with Stephenson as well as a 2-3 Center, he puts up numbers as well. Could Conroy be lurking to make a trade for someone, that's possible as well. We may also lose Mags which is not going to hurt IMHO but that said we don't have anything in minors that's remotely close. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's funny, I think I was catching your optimism last week and made me think a bit on adding. I think it's not looking that horrible. I think Bahl is a decent add for depth, and is young. Who knows if he has some upside to tap into. Not saying he is Giordano, but how many thought Gio would turn out the way he did? I didn't, and thought he was ok when the rebuild started back in the day. It was after that I could see his value, which we should have tapped into then on the trade market.

[tmac70]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

It's funny, I think I was catching your optimism last week and made me think a bit on adding. I think it's not looking that horrible. I think Bahl is a decent add for depth, and is young. Who knows if he has some upside to tap into. Not saying he is Giordano, but how many thought Gio would turn out the way he did? I didn't, and thought he was ok when the rebuild started back in the day. It was after that I could see his value, which we should have tapped into then on the trade market.

I try to remain optimistic on this, I want to be excited to watch a Flames game not tune in to thumping or the crap show as seen in SJ, ANA, CHI, CBJ.  I am grateful we are collecting assets but this roster is still going to need to add. To think that we do not need to add is reckless, irresponsible, and frankly dangerous. We have vets here who have won and been through the battles of the war to get to the glory land, that crucial in the development of younger guys.  Plus, it sounds like it's Vldar and Wolf who are going to require far better D man in front of them and better defensive structure. Having some more championship vets around is not a bad thing. Really the prospects we have are going to be 3-6 years away from being effective. I like the fact we are currently over-developing prospects. I know it goes against the narrative but Connie needs to acquire assets and utilize the cap space to show our current roster, league, and prospects the goal is always to win. IMHO a few tweaks to the current roster and they could have it as a system of as one moves out we have a similar or better option moving in.