Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition

[robrob74]

I dunno, handled different from up top sounds eerily the way the Flames operate, allowing deals to get so far and then stopped by ownership.

[robrob74]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

It is pretty standard that if a player has a NMC/NTC that before the team engages in trade discussions they run it by the agent and keep them in the loop. It would not be the norm to get to a deal with the player having no idea you are even negotiating. That doesn't mean the clause was asked to be waived, but it is a discussion to make sure you are not doing something the player will say no to. I think that's why you get the differing reports. The more credible sources have not said he waived, but some others have probably because they are being fed "well Conroy spoke with the agent so he must have waived" type of info. 

 

There is a formal sign off of a NMC/NTC that has to happen before a deal can go through because the acquiring team is not necessarily required to keep it. So players/agents aren't going to give a full yay/nay unless they know all of the parameters. Becomes a formality because they've been kept in the loop. 

 

I don't have sources but from what i've read I don't think he was ever asked to waive. No where the Flames may have gone wrong here is leading him on to believe a deal was further along.  The circumstances of Wolf's start were strange and were pretty indicative of a deal being close. It's pretty clear Markstrom thought it was, based on how he acted in warmups, and he must have been told something to believe that. Whose fault i'm not sure matters nor do I really think is a big deal. 

to me it sounds like he would have by his comments today. And possibly it's on owners; I only say that from history, getting to a deal with the Wild and then it not working.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I cannot say no but I have no reason to believe that is the case. 

 

I don't think Markstrom was actually ever formally asked to waive his NTC.  

 

Ya either way, Conroy probably asked "would you consider a trade to NJD?" and Markstrom said "okay"... so, verbal agreement at minimum but when nothing happened after that, coupled with media leaks, then Markstrom got a bit mad about it.  Now his teammates will look at him like, "bruh, you leaving us?" and just unnecessary awkwardness. 

[MP5029]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Personally, I refuse to believe NJD is offering a 1st + Mercer + Holtz for Markstrom.

 

I remember a few months back, I suggested the Flames trade Markstrom to the Leafs for THREE 1st round picks and got laughed off the boards.  And now, literally that's the NJD offer?  Basically three 1sts for Markstrom?  And we say no??

If the offer was a 1st, Mercer and Holtz even with retention that deal would have been done…

 

I think the offer was 1st and Holtz…maybe + with retention

 

i think Cgy countered with Mercer is a must for retention of salary…we all know he’s the guy they wanted that drat and missed out by 1 spot, NJD ahead of them…

 

im thinking if NJD is backing off on retention, and Cgy is still thinking of making the move it will shake out to be 1st+ Holtz+ some other small add 

 

it is also possible that maybe Cgy is digging in and saying the only way we move Markstrom is for Mercer+

[robrob74]

It got too far and someone "at the top" or "up top" didn't handle it well. I think it's ownership. But that's my bias. I get we don't hear everything but it sounds like it got to the signing off, and we don't know how much retention the devils asked for

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

It got too far and someone "at the top" or "up top" didn't handle it well. I think it's ownership. But that's my bias. I get we don't hear everything but it sounds like it got to the signing off, and we don't know how much retention the devils asked for

 

The later take on it was not the retentin issue, just the offer for retaining.  In other words what they offered to us to have us retain 2.25 years worth of salary retention.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

I think it's in bad taste to report a guy was asked if he technically wasn't asked.

He may have suggested that he might waive for a certain team or teams.

But that's as unlikely as being formally asked without a deal in place.

What if Connie had said in passing that they might ask him to waive but weren't there yet.

Would you really call that being asked to waive?

If you were a hack "insider" you would.

[Thebrewcrew]

Nico Daws gets lit up again. Markstrom is unhappy.

 

The Flames and Devils would both benefit from sorting this thing out.

 

If there’s any way at all of landing Holtz, do the deal. Regardless of retention.

[phoenix66]

To be honest this whole Markstrom thing is off the rails ... I think much of it is being driven by media and agents.. much like how hanifin's agent seems to be trying to dictate to where his client gets dealt ..

 

Awhile back ..Marky, like a good teammate comments that If flames were to come to him, he'd be open to having the discussion..  suddenly he's "asking for a trade " ..  word gets out Jersey made an attractive offer (who leaked that anyway ?) ..and it was a done deal...it was never close .. he was aksed to waive ..he did waive ..he was never asked.  He didn't waive ..  flames asked for more .. Murray Edwards nixed it .. all of it being stated like fact ..

 

Markstrom makes his comment today..  he's talking about Conroy..he's talking about Edwards..he's upset the deal wasn't done ..he's upset the deal was talked about.. maybe he's upset he's busting his hump for this team and everyone from fans to media are running him out of town ? .

 

He's partially to blame ..he made the statement with no clarity.   I get you don't discuss potential moves publicly but Conroy could also have put water on the fire by making any statement to kill the negativity.. 

I can see suddenly his days being numbered now due to it all . But the bulk of it reeks of agent manipulation.. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Nico Daws gets lit up again. Markstrom is unhappy.

 

The Flames and Devils would both benefit from sorting this thing out.

 

If there’s any way at all of landing Holtz, do the deal. Regardless of retention.

 

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

To be honest this whole Markstrom thing is off the rails ... I think much of it is being driven by media and agents.. much like how hanifin's agent seems to be trying to dictate to where his client gets dealt ..

 

Awhile back ..Marky, like a good teammate comments that If flames were to come to him, he'd be open to having the discussion..  suddenly he's "asking for a trade " ..  word gets out Jersey made an attractive offer (who leaked that anyway ?) ..and it was a done deal...it was never close .. he was aksed to waive ..he did waive ..he was never asked.  He didn't waive ..  flames asked for more .. Murray Edwards nixed it .. all of it being stated like fact ..

 

Markstrom makes his comment today..  he's talking about Conroy..he's talking about Edwards..he's upset the deal wasn't done ..he's upset the deal was talked about.. maybe he's upset he's busting his hump for this team and everyone from fans to media are running him out of town ? .

 

He's partially to blame ..he made the statement with no clarity.   I get you don't discuss potential moves publicly but Conroy could also have put water on the fire by making any statement to kill the negativity.. 

I can see suddenly his days being numbered now due to it all . But the bulk of it reeks of agent manipulation.. 

 

And then EF comes out with his stupid comments.  I never get what his angle is.  Does he want to trash the fans some days or the players or mgmt the next.  Everything with him is drama.  Markstrom plays the season well, he's the savior of the team and we don't deserve him.  He has a shakey playoffs and it's on him.  Thachuk hates Doubty, and there we=ill be blood.  Tkachuk hates EDM so and so.  RIval cities want to crush one another.  Johnny wants out.  Tkachuk hates the coach.  Toffoli wants out.  Lindholm wants out.  Tanev wants to win in another city.  Markstrom isn't happy.  Now he wants out.  

 

If you were to sum up EF in a single column, it would be some players are lazy spoiled brats and Flames fans want everything and deserve nothing.  Player of the week is a god.  Next week he is the goat.  

 

As far as trading Markstrom, to me it's because we have gone the rebuild/retool route and we won't have him at the top of his game by the time we are ready to compete.  Last year we were a bottom 10 team and we got just enough wins out of him to land out of the top 14.  This year we are the same thing and have won enough games because of him and the kids that have bought into the NHL game.  We lose Zadorov, Lindholm, Dube, Toffoli and barely missed a beat.  Markstrom picked up his game when we were on life support.  Trading MArkstrom doesn't make us better, but it does shine a light on the areas that need improvement.  

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Nico Daws gets lit up again. Markstrom is unhappy.

 

The Flames and Devils would both benefit from sorting this thing out.

 

If there’s any way at all of landing Holtz, do the deal. Regardless of retention.

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

 

 

 

 

 

When I first read this, it was before the EF stories and other so-called insider talk.

I thought, well if the offer was something they wanted in the first place, then it should be done.

Pretty hard to walk back off the ledge now.

Can't PO a goalie about a trade that almost happened but didn't, then turn around

and turn down the exact deal they wanted.

 

Saying all that, if these insiders are all full of crap, then they are ruing the sport.

If you don't know then shut your pie hole.  My understanding is a way of saying you don't know,

but think that may be the truth.  

[jjgallow]

13 hours ago, cross16 said:

It is pretty standard that if a player has a NMC/NTC that before the team engages in trade discussions they run it by the agent and keep them in the loop. It would not be the norm to get to a deal with the player having no idea you are even negotiating. That doesn't mean the clause was asked to be waived, but it is a discussion to make sure you are not doing something the player will say no to. I think that's why you get the differing reports. The more credible sources have not said he waived, but some others have probably because they are being fed "well Conroy spoke with the agent so he must have waived" type of info. 

 

There is a formal sign off of a NMC/NTC that has to happen before a deal can go through because the acquiring team is not necessarily required to keep it. So players/agents aren't going to give a full yay/nay unless they know all of the parameters. Becomes a formality because they've been kept in the loop. 

 

I don't have sources but from what i've read I don't think he was ever asked to waive. No where the Flames may have gone wrong here is leading him on to believe a deal was further along.  The circumstances of Wolf's start were strange and were pretty indicative of a deal being close. It's pretty clear Markstrom thought it was, based on how he acted in warmups, and he must have been told something to believe that. Whose fault i'm not sure matters nor do I really think is a big deal. 

 

No sources here either but judging by Markstrom's reaction it would seem that they were informed of a negotiation, assumptions were made, and that particular deal did not go through.

 

Markstrom being an athlete and not a professional contract broker of course feels strung along, but realistically trades have this nature.    They go through phases of negotiation which can heat and cool.   

 

If the player wants to be informed of all exploratory negotiations, that player gonna get frustrated.    I liked the arrangements where they asked for a list of possible teams and agreed not to talk about it until it was past the 95% threshold.   But I do suspect how that communication is handled depends more on the agent and player than management.

[phoenix66]

6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

And then EF comes out with his stupid comments.  I never get what his angle is.  Does he want to trash the fans some days or the players or mgmt the next.  Everything with him is drama.  Markstrom plays the season well, he's the savior of the team and we don't deserve him.  He has a shakey playoffs and it's on him.  Thachuk hates Doubty, and there we=ill be blood.  Tkachuk hates EDM so and so.  RIval cities want to crush one another.  Johnny wants out.  Tkachuk hates the coach.  Toffoli wants out.  Lindholm wants out.  Tanev wants to win in another city.  Markstrom isn't happy.  Now he wants out.  

 

If you were to sum up EF in a single column, it would be some players are lazy spoiled brats and Flames fans want everything and deserve nothing.  Player of the week is a god.  Next week he is the goat.  

 

As far as trading Markstrom, to me it's because we have gone the rebuild/retool route and we won't have him at the top of his game by the time we are ready to compete.  Last year we were a bottom 10 team and we got just enough wins out of him to land out of the top 14.  This year we are the same thing and have won enough games because of him and the kids that have bought into the NHL game.  We lose Zadorov, Lindholm, Dube, Toffoli and barely missed a beat.  Markstrom picked up his game when we were on life support.  Trading MArkstrom doesn't make us better, but it does shine a light on the areas that need improvement.  

Ya tbh the only insider i put any stock in is Friedman.. he seems to respect both sides and is very careful about what he says .. hence then his sources trust him more..

 

Francis I've always taken for what he is .. a reporter more interested in clicks and readership .  Yesterday was a great example..  first he asks the question..at a really disrespectful time... Then he does a radio hit where he says " I don't know " what markstrom meant... Then writes an article about what Markstrom meant ... So which is it ?  Lol

 

But its like what I'd said earlier.. who leaked all this ?  Who benefits ?   .. I highly doubt it came out of Calgary's camp..   even NJ would be silly to leak it as that could upset negotiations...  But the agents like to force teams Into doing their bidding . 

 

Somebody asked the question " who cares where Hanifin is traded , if he wants to sign certain places he can do so in just a few months " ..  simple ..  the 8th year of the contract 

[Thebrewcrew]

7 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

 

 

 

 

That’s really interesting. I missed that yesterday.

 

It makes sense though. 6x2 left on the Markstrom deal, if he were a UFA this summer he’s getting more than two years. Which is to say, 12m over two years is quite reasonable.

 

Personally, I would do Holtz and a 2nd for Markstrom. Would love a 1st, but not sure NJ would move that and Holtz.

[MP5029]

I think Markstrom is traded at or before the deadline, possibly Monday, it’s gonna be to NJD and the return will be 

 

Holtz

2024 first

another small pice

 

non retention

 

if not that, then  it will be  

 

Mercer

2024 first

another significant pice maybe Holtz 

 

with retention 

[phoenix66]

52 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

That’s really interesting. I missed that yesterday.

 

It makes sense though. 6x2 left on the Markstrom deal, if he were a UFA this summer he’s getting more than two years. Which is to say, 12m over two years is quite reasonable.

 

Personally, I would do Holtz and a 2nd for Markstrom. Would love a 1st, but not sure NJ would move that and Holtz.

I'm not a huge fan of Lebrun..but I will admit he's in my "B" category.. there's usually a shred of truth to what he says ..

 

If we sift thru all the gossip and assumptions..I got the sense the original offer that had the flames seriously considering was Holtz, a first , and either a B/c prospect or another pick... Somewhere along the way the devil's asked for retention and that upped the price and the deal died..  flames also seem to be hot for Mercer ..

 

If true.. likely the devil's have either comeback with the original package with no retention.. or some adjustments...  But also , it only says they are willing to go no retention..not made an offer so it could also mean square one ..

 

Wanted to add... The more i think about it..this is a perfect example of clickbait manipulation.. does it say they made an offer ?  No.. does it say they're willing to offer the Same or better ? No..  just says they're willing to not ask for retention..

Apparently the flames passed on an Tanev offer that included a first..because it also meant taking back a bad contract .. took a lesser pick and prospect instead.. sooooo. What are the odds reality is sure they'll take the whole contract but now will only offer X..? ..  but social media is going off saying "oh they have to take it now ".. assumptions without all the facts is what makes a mess 

[Thebrewcrew]

46 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm not a huge fan of Lebrun..but I will admit he's in my "B" category.. there's usually a shred of truth to what he says ..

 

If we sift thru all the gossip and assumptions..I got the sense the original offer that had the flames seriously considering was Holtz, a first , and either a B/c prospect or another pick... Somewhere along the way the devil's asked for retention and that upped the price and the deal died..  flames also seem to be hot for Mercer ..

 

If true.. likely the devil's have either comeback with the original package with no retention.. or some adjustments...  But also , it only says they are willing to go no retention..not made an offer so it could also mean square one ..

Under the old regime, I found Lebrun to be one of the more reliable insiders when it comes to the Flames.

 

I would be really happy with any package built around Holtz. That's the top of high-ceiling asset you need to acquire if you're trying to turn this around in three or four years.

[phoenix66]

Just now, Thebrewcrew said:

Under the old regime, I found Lebrun to be one of the more reliable insiders when it comes to the Flames.

 

I would be really happy with any package built around Holtz. That's the top of high-ceiling asset you need to acquire if you're trying to turn this around in three or four years.

Absolutely.. that's why hes in my B category..(to be fair only Friedman is an A for me .. )  his sources are typically..good ..his posts tend to have truth based comments ..but he has gotten a little click-baity and does have some biases

[phoenix66]

I'll never be a fan of the Canucks ..but let this be a lesson for the next Johnny type scenario...

 

VC..  let's extend 

EP.. were not talking during the season .

VC.. were trading you to Carolina 

EP wait what ? 

 

 

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'll never be a fan of the Canucks ..but let this be a lesson for the next Johnny type scenario...

 

VC..  let's extend 

EP.. were not talking during the season .

VC.. were trading you to Carolina 

EP wait what ? 

 

 

 

BT learned a difficult lesson as a GM.  You can respect a player's wishes to not negotiate if you are willing to lose said player for nothing.  I have no idea what he was expecting to happen.  A player with the opportunity to play elsewhere under a different coach if he walks to UFA.  He can still hold the team randsom.  

 

Why were we the dumbest team in the NHL?  Only thing missing was being fined a 1st by the NHL.

[cross16]

22 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Under the old regime, I found Lebrun to be one of the more reliable insiders when it comes to the Flames.

 

I would be really happy with any package built around Holtz. That's the top of high-ceiling asset you need to acquire if you're trying to turn this around in three or four years.

I’m in the camp that is the rumors are truth and it’s Holtz and a 1st or 2nd then Conroy is making a mistake holding on to Markstrom. I don’t see the package getting better than that. 
 

but it is possible the flames just don’t like Holtz. That be fair but value wise I don’t think you’re getting a better value trade later. 
 

still hoping this gets done before Friday. Devils gotta do something in net here. 
 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

That’s really interesting. I missed that yesterday.

 

It makes sense though. 6x2 left on the Markstrom deal, if he were a UFA this summer he’s getting more than two years. Which is to say, 12m over two years is quite reasonable.

 

Personally, I would do Holtz and a 2nd for Markstrom. Would love a 1st, but not sure NJ would move that and Holtz.

 

If it was a first, you have to think it was lotto protected.  Thos conditions would have to be offset by another pick if moving it to 2025.  But I think they wouldn't even listen if it didn't include a 1st.  One player and a 2nd isn't a ton.  

 

I don't know if there is any smoke around EF, but I do think we would be better off solving the problem now.  The news is out there and players listen.  No point in holding off, since the players will look at this and be affected.  If you are trading him at some point, you might as well get a read on both your other goalies and see what they can do, because frankly that is all we have left for now.  Can adjust later but you have to know.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

BT learned a difficult lesson as a GM.  You can respect a player's wishes to not negotiate if you are willing to lose said player for nothing.  I have no idea what he was expecting to happen.  A player with the opportunity to play elsewhere under a different coach if he walks to UFA.  He can still hold the team randsom.  

 

Why were we the dumbest team in the NHL?  Only thing missing was being fined a 1st by the NHL.

💯..  the key is be willing to lose the player , but not for nothing .

Giving Johnny the benefit of the doubt , that maybe he was torn up to the last second ... Bt still got Burned by the one that was his strength .his relationship with players..  flames were in the same situation as Canucks (except EP was an rfa..ok) contender status .. top player (more realistically his agent) using leverage ..  should have sent a message an used TDL as a deadline and threatened to move him if he didn't want to sign .

 

Conroy actually has an opportunity here with Hanifin.. his agent is apparently trying to direcr where he goes .. likely trying to force a sign and trade ..I'd be on board with no home run on hanifin if it sends him to a bottom feeder team for a 2nd( high second just as good as a late first ) so he loses his 8th year 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

I’m in the camp that is the rumors are truth and it’s Holtz and a 1st or 2nd then Conroy is making a mistake holding on to Markstrom. I don’t see the package getting better than that. 
 

but it is possible the flames just don’t like Holtz. That be fair but value wise I don’t think you’re getting a better value trade later. 
 

still hoping this gets done before Friday. Devils gotta do something in net here. 
 

 

 

Yeah, I think the Devils are desperate.  I doubt they want to give any assets to an East team like MTL and I don't think Allen is that good now.  Elvis?  I doubt he is anything more than he has shown.

 

So, take the deal if it's fair value.  Evaluate the player.  Trade in the future if you like.  Player has pedigree value.