2023 Offseason

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

And even that's getting a bit rich for 1 40g/ppg season that was with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Never before, not yet after.

Larkin has shown some consistency at ppg and is likely worth more, as well as being a captain.

I just don't think that he's worth the full 9. Could be a 50-60pt guy again. That would suck.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I would do 9x8 at the most. To get that kind of money in UFA it would be 10.2x7, which isn’t happening.

 

only thing about this is, it might take that kind of money to stay. 
 

we'd have to make Huberdeau work with him to make that deal work. 
 

Maybe Florida can't afford Bennett? Let's trade for him! Lol

 

We need to bite the bullet and try some kids with the good vets more often. I find we stick with "what's working" way too often. No way you're breaking up Gaudreau and Monahan but suffer with the holes in other parts of the lineup because of decisions like that. Playing skilled kids with skilled vets help skilled kids maintain their skill... 

[Thebrewcrew]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

And even that's getting a bit rich for 1 40g/ppg season that was with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Never before, not yet after.

Larkin has shown some consistency at ppg and is likely worth more, as well as being a captain.

I just don't think that he's worth the full 9. Could be a 50-60pt guy again. That would suck.

Yes, 9 is as high as I would go. Ideally, you could get it done at 8.5

 

The whole Western Canadian/small market/old rink thing will drive the cost up. 

 

And for what it's worth, I don't see him signing.

[Thebrewcrew]

Just for fun, let's say the Flames make three trades this summer. Vladar, Lindholm and Hanifin.

We'll say Lindholm goes to Columbus in a packaged headlined by Sillinger, for the purpose of this post, the destinations for Vladar and Hanifin don't matter.

 

It stocks the cupboards in picks/prospects for the first time in a while.

 

It gives the Flames a lineup that looks something like this

Huberdeau-Kadri-Toffoli

Pelletier-Backlund-Mangiapane

Dube-Sillinger-Coleman

Ruzicka-Zary-Duehr

 

Weegar-Andersson

Kylington-Tanev

Zadorov-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Wolf

 

On paper, not as good as last year. That said, last years team looked fantastic on paper, but wasn't. It's not the best team in the West by any stretch, but could certainly be in the mix for the playoffs. WPG and SEA were playoff teams but by no means are guaranteed to be next year. Even LA, they rely so heavily on Kopitar and Doughty, they show their age and it's a game changer for LA, in a bad way. The best part? If they aren't, they're in a spot to sell off Tanev/Toffoli/Zadorov and further solidify the future. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

i wouldnt also be suprised if you see coronato in that line up next year aswell

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

At what price should we NOT sign Lindholm?  What if the number he wants is $10-mil x 8-years?

 

It's interesting to me how we've lost 70% of our core and the opinion is still that LIndholm is "untradeable" because he's our "best player" and we would go into a rebuild without him.

 

We went into a rebuild sometime prior to losing 70% of our core.  Nobody is untradeable at this point.  I actually think he is a great trading candidate.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

It's interesting to me how we've lost 70% of our core and the opinion is still that LIndholm is "untradeable" because he's our "best player" and we would go into a rebuild without him.

 

We went into a rebuild sometime prior to losing 70% of our core.  Nobody is untradeable at this point.  I actually think he is a great trading candidate.

 

We need him though if we want to make the playoffs.  We will never rebuild (aka spend time in the basement).  No matter what, ownership wants to buy a playoff team (not to be confused with a Cup contending team of course, those require spending time in the basement).

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Just for fun, let's say the Flames make three trades this summer. Vladar, Lindholm and Hanifin.

We'll say Lindholm goes to Columbus in a packaged headlined by Sillinger, for the purpose of this post, the destinations for Vladar and Hanifin don't matter.

 

It stocks the cupboards in picks/prospects for the first time in a while.

 

It gives the Flames a lineup that looks something like this

Huberdeau-Kadri-Toffoli

Pelletier-Backlund-Mangiapane

Dube-Sillinger-Coleman

Ruzicka-Zary-Duehr

 

Weegar-Andersson

Kylington-Tanev

Zadorov-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Wolf

 

On paper, not as good as last year. That said, last years team looked fantastic on paper, but wasn't. It's not the best team in the West by any stretch, but could certainly be in the mix for the playoffs. WPG and SEA were playoff teams but by no means are guaranteed to be next year. Even LA, they rely so heavily on Kopitar and Doughty, they show their age and it's a game changer for LA, in a bad way. The best part? If they aren't, they're in a spot to sell off Tanev/Toffoli/Zadorov and further solidify the future. 

 

That lineup looks so bad.  I don't think Backlund would even want to come back when he sees that.

 

Furthermore, Mangiapane just doesn't want to play RW no matter what.  Same with Huberdeau.  It's the same old problem of too many LWs and not enough RWs.

[conundrumed]

8 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Just for fun, let's say the Flames make three trades this summer. Vladar, Lindholm and Hanifin.

We'll say Lindholm goes to Columbus in a packaged headlined by Sillinger, for the purpose of this post, the destinations for Vladar and Hanifin don't matter.

 

It stocks the cupboards in picks/prospects for the first time in a while.

 

It gives the Flames a lineup that looks something like this

Huberdeau-Kadri-Toffoli

Pelletier-Backlund-Mangiapane

Dube-Sillinger-Coleman

Ruzicka-Zary-Duehr

 

Weegar-Andersson

Kylington-Tanev

Zadorov-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Wolf

 

On paper, not as good as last year. That said, last years team looked fantastic on paper, but wasn't. It's not the best team in the West by any stretch, but could certainly be in the mix for the playoffs. WPG and SEA were playoff teams but by no means are guaranteed to be next year. Even LA, they rely so heavily on Kopitar and Doughty, they show their age and it's a game changer for LA, in a bad way. The best part? If they aren't, they're in a spot to sell off Tanev/Toffoli/Zadorov and further solidify the future. 

You forgot CBS added Andrew Peeke and gave us our 3rd back.

Hanifin went to St, Lou for Neighbours and T.O.s 1st.

Another 2nd/3rd was acquired for Vladar:

Huberdeau-Kadri-Toffoli

Neighbours-Sillinger-Dube

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Ruzicka-Duehr

 

Weegar-Anderson

Kylington-Tanev

Z-Peeke

 

Added prospects:

Musty

Ritchie

Lindstein

McCarthy

Burns

Re-tool on the fly, we have cap, we have prospects, we have a youth movement, let's go. Swap lines 2-3 as necessary,

edit

Forgot Cole Knuble if he's still around the Burns pick in this little fantasy world!!

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, conundrumed said:

You forgot CBS added Andrew Peeke and gave us our 3rd back.

Hanifin went to St, Lou for Neighbours and T.O.s 1st.

Another 2nd/3rd was acquired for Vladar:

Huberdeau-Kadri-Toffoli

Neighbours-Sillinger-Dube

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Pelletier-Ruzicka-Duehr

 

Weegar-Anderson

Kylington-Tanev

Z-Peeke

 

Added prospects:

Musty

Ritchie

Lindstein

McCarthy

Burns

Re-tool on the fly, we have cap, we have prospects, we have a youth movement, let's go. Swap lines 2-3 as necessary,

edit

Forgot Cole Knuble if he's still around the Burns pick in this little fantasy world!!

Can you trade Dube for another first and play Coronato in his place? Or are you bringing him up next year, playing him in the AHL next season?

[jjgallow]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

We need him though if we want to make the playoffs.  We will never rebuild (aka spend time in the basement).  No matter what, ownership wants to buy a playoff team (not to be confused with a Cup contending team of course, those require spending time in the basement).

 

 

yeah the "rebuild" word sure has a lot of connotations, I do disagree but agree with parts.

 

I do agree that right now ownership is against the "rebuild" word.

 

I also believe we are already in one having sold off or accidentally lost most of the team through incredibly short sighted management.

 

I mean...I'm really liking Conroy lately.  lol.  If I wanted to ensure a rebuild, the First thing I would do is absolutely retain Markstrom.   Imho this alone almost ensures we won't make the playoffs and Will get high picks.   

 

It was, like, his first move.   Said he's gonna "have a bounce back year".   lol.

 

So I'm talking about what they are doing, and not what they are saying.

 

What they are doing is very much already rebuilding.  I'm not even sure if the owners know it or not.  I doubt it.

 

Markstrom is nice because the chance of high picks is very high, but ultimately it is hard to put the blame on Conroy given the contract he's been saddled with.

 

 

I mean, let's be honest:  What was the #1 reason for missing the playoffs this year?

yeah.

And our plan?  Do same thing.

 

You CAN buy a playoff team.  I agree, in a league with this much parity it's possible.   But it's not what I'm seeing.

   I am not seeing those steps being taken.  Also, our owner is not actually known for splurging.

 

I do also think this is one or 2 pieces away from being too obvious to hide.

So yeah, I also believe Conroy may just use the "R" word at some point.   But not yet.

 

I could be wrong about Conroy.  But I'm hopeful for now.

[sagacity7]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

yeah the "rebuild" word sure has a lot of connotations, I do disagree but agree with parts.

 

I do believe that right now ownership is against the "rebuild" word.

 

I also believe we are already in one having sold off or accidentally lost most of the team through incredibly short sighted management.

 

I mean...I'm really liking Conroy lately.  lol.  If I wanted ensure a rebuild, the First thing I would do is absolutely retain Markstrom.   Imho this alone almost ensures we won't make the playoffs and Will get high picks.   

 

It was, like, his first move.   Said he's gonna "have a bounce back year".   lol.

 

So I'm talking about what they are doing, and not what they are saying.

 

What they are doing is very much already rebuilding.  I'm not even sure if the owners know it or not.  I doubt it.

 

Markstrom is nice because the chance of high picks is very high, but ultimately it is hard to put the blame on Conroy given the contract he's been saddled with.

 

 

I mean, let's be honest:  What was the #1 reason for missing the playoffs this year?

yeah.

And our plan?  Do same thing.

 

You CAN buy a playoff team.  I agree, in a league with this much parity it's possible.   But it's not what I'm seeing.

   I am not seeing those steps being taken.  Also, our owner is not actually known for splurging.

 

I do also think this is one or 2 pieces away from being too obvious to hide.

So yeah, I also believe Conroy may just use the "R" word at some point.   But not yet.

 

I could be wrong about Conroy.  But I'm hopeful for now.

This could go rebuild or it could go retool. Depends which r word you use. The Flames could move out some “core” pieces to get a star player and also inject youth to help with the cap and see what you’ve got. Not only does Markstrom need to bounce back but Huberdeau as well. He needs a centre who’s a scorer to help. I don’t know but you’ve got to give something to get something.

If you can’t convince Lindholm to re-sign then maybe you move him and a premium D man to get a scoring centre. Matthews and Huberdeau together would be frightening for any opposition. Move a first, Lindholm, Vladar, and Andersson for Matthews? Doesn’t have to be this, but… I wouldn’t want to kill the blue line and it depends on Toronto’s new GM but a scoring centre is what I believe we need. American born GM may help here…if you are retooling.

[Thebrewcrew]

The best thing for the organization long term is to move Hanifin and Lindholm.

 

Sure, it would be nice to see them stick around, but it gives the Flames 5 players with 6 or more years of term left. The biggest issue is they're gonna be paying for a lot of the "back nine" of those careers. That's how you end up like the San Jose Sharks. Bad and have limited flexibility. 

 

 

I think the ownership needs to adjust their mentality slightly. Change it from "playoffs every year" to having a competitive team if/.when the Flames have a new arena. On this trajectory, the team is gonna be old and slow in 4-6yrs. Leads to lots of empty seats in a new barn. If they are proactive and I'm skeptical they will be, but they could set they could have a really exciting team by the time that building opens.

 

The best part is that it doesn't take a complete tear-down. All it takes is what Conroy mentioned, asset-management. Trade the rentals instead of giving them boat anchor deals. 

 

Again, I'm skeptical they'll do it. Asset-management was not a strength under the old regime. Let's see if Conroy 's actions match the words. 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The best thing for the organization long term is to move Hanifin and Lindholm.

 

Sure, it would be nice to see them stick around, but it gives the Flames 5 players with 6 or more years of term left. The biggest issue is they're gonna be paying for a lot of the "back nine" of those careers. That's how you end up like the San Jose Sharks. Bad and have limited flexibility. 

 

 

I think the ownership needs to adjust their mentality slightly. Change it from "playoffs every year" to having a competitive team if/.when the Flames have a new arena. On this trajectory, the team is gonna be old and slow in 4-6yrs. Leads to lots of empty seats in a new barn. If they are proactive and I'm skeptical they will be, but they could set they could have a really exciting team by the time that building opens.

 

The best part is that it doesn't take a complete tear-down. All it takes is what Conroy mentioned, asset-management. Trade the rentals instead of giving them boat anchor deals. 

 

Again, I'm skeptical they'll do it. Asset-management was not a strength under the old regime. Let's see if Conroy 's actions match the words. 

I agree, you move them and it can be a quick 3 year turn around, and parts are in place to compete at the same time. 
 

if Columbus is willing to trade the 3rd overall, do it! I wouldn't say completely break the bank. But I'd do it. 
 

Lindholm, maybe a middle6 player and a 2nd for 3rd OA. I dunno what it takes but wouldnt give  much more than that.

 

some say maybe Lindholm and a 2nd does it.

[Thebrewcrew]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I agree, you move them and it can be a quick 3 year turn around, and parts are in place to compete at the same time. 
 

if Columbus is willing to trade the 3rd overall, do it! I wouldn't say completely break the bank. But I'd do it. 
 

Lindholm, maybe a middle6 player and a 2nd for 3rd OA. I dunno what it takes but wouldnt give  much more than that.

 

some say maybe Lindholm and a 2nd does it.

I don’t think the 3rd pick is at all realistic. The Athletic trying to drum up interest.

 

But if you can get the 22nd pick, Cole Sillinger+. You have to consider it. 
 

It’s been posted on here many times, but the Flames need to start acting like the small market team that they are. There’s been too many examples of losing key players for very little. If guys want to stay great.  But if they can’t, you have to flip them for younger, cost-controlled assets. Different sport, but this can work. Look at the Tampa Bay Rays

[cross16]

Could be a touch pessimistic here but I don't see LIndholm/Hanifin trades as trades that would kickstart or shorten a rebuild. I just don't think your going to get the type of offers for them that some here think.  I think you are likely going to get 2-3 lottery tickets for both players and I don't think your going to get sure things. I don't see pieces like the 3rd overall or Sillenger being offered. 

 

Doesn't mean I don't think you trade them just trying to be realistic with what I think the return will be and I don't think it be one that would get fans excited personally. 

 

Said this before but I think you are looking at the Bo Horvat package as to what you can expect in return for Lindholm. Less for Hanifin. May price goes up if you wait until July and it can come with an extension but that could be offset by the fact that now Lindholm gets to choose where he goes. 

[Heartbreaker]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

Could be a touch pessimistic here but I don't see LIndholm/Hanifin trades as trades that would kickstart or shorten a rebuild. I just don't think your going to get the type of offers for them that some here think.  I think you are likely going to get 2-3 lottery tickets for both players and I don't think your going to get sure things. I don't see pieces like the 3rd overall or Sillenger being offered. 

 

Doesn't mean I don't think you trade them just trying to be realistic with what I think the return will be and I don't think it be one that would get fans excited personally. 

 

Pfft! Why you gotta be such a buzz kill? 

 

Two year retool. Oilers suck.

 

Love.

[JTech780]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Could be a touch pessimistic here but I don't see LIndholm/Hanifin trades as trades that would kickstart or shorten a rebuild. I just don't think your going to get the type of offers for them that some here think.  I think you are likely going to get 2-3 lottery tickets for both players and I don't think your going to get sure things. I don't see pieces like the 3rd overall or Sillenger being offered. 

 

Doesn't mean I don't think you trade them just trying to be realistic with what I think the return will be and I don't think it be one that would get fans excited personally. 

 

Said this before but I think you are looking at the Bo Horvat package as to what you can expect in return for Lindholm. Less for Hanifin. May price goes up if you wait until July and it can come with an extension but that could be offset by the fact that now Lindholm gets to choose where he goes. 

So something like Alex Newhook, Jean-Luc Foudy and 27th overall.

 

Horvat got Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a top 12 protected 2023 1st (17th overall).

 

I think I would still make that trade, especially if Lindholm says he isn’t signing long term or talks don’t progress.

[cross16]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

So something like Alex Newhook, Jean-Luc Foudy and 27th overall.

 

Horvat got Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a top 12 protected 2023 1st (17th overall).

 

I think I would still make that trade, especially if Lindholm says he isn’t signing long term or talks don’t progress.

 

for sure the answer changes if he won't sign. 100% cannot let him walk for nothing. That's probably a reasonable return and a good example of what I mean. It's fine but it really isn't that good nor would it push the Flames forward. It's not an exciting return IMO. Better than nothing but if it came down to Lindholm signing and that return I'm taking Lindholm signing everyday. 

 

My point is the Flames are really in this mushy middle and short of taking it down to the studs I don't see them trading their way out of it. So really it's push this core forward the next few years and hope for the best or take it down to the studs and go through the long rebuild. I don't think you can trade your way out of a long rebuild here. 

 

That's all. Both sides have merits, both sides will have their followers but that's just how I see this franchise at this moment. I'd prefer they pick one of them then just make reactionary style trades. 

[JTech780]

50 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

for sure the answer changes if he won't sign. 100% cannot let him walk for nothing. That's probably a reasonable return and a good example of what I mean. It's fine but it really isn't that good nor would it push the Flames forward. It's not an exciting return IMO. Better than nothing but if it came down to Lindholm signing and that return I'm taking Lindholm signing everyday. 

 

My point is the Flames are really in this mushy middle and short of taking it down to the studs I don't see them trading their way out of it. So really it's push this core forward the next few years and hope for the best or take it down to the studs and go through the long rebuild. I don't think you can trade your way out of a long rebuild here. 

 

That's all. Both sides have merits, both sides will have their followers but that's just how I see this franchise at this moment. I'd prefer they pick one of them then just make reactionary style trades. 

I mean my preferred target would be Marco Rossi, but even that seems ambitious. I just think Minnesota has to be somewhat desperate for a center to play with Kaprizov.

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I mean my preferred target would be Marco Rossi, but even that seems ambitious. I just think Minnesota has to be somewhat desperate for a center to play with Kaprizov.

 

I wonder about prices leading up to the draft, especially after teams lose out in the first round of the playoffs.  TBH, I can't remember the last player traded for a fist rounder, maybe Schneider?  I'm sure there would have been others, but can't think of any.  The TDL value for a player on an expiring deal is probably not the right comparison.  Lindholm is coming off a decent year, and has a full year left on his contract.  He has zero trade protection, if the receiving team can't also work out a deal or they decide to trade him at the TDL.

 

Just looking for context on a pre-draft trade.  I would think that this type of trade is few and far between.

[cross16]

41 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I mean my preferred target would be Marco Rossi, but even that seems ambitious. I just think Minnesota has to be somewhat desperate for a center to play with Kaprizov.

 

And if you could get someone like that I would 100% trade Lindhom. 

 

I'm just really skeptical you'll get that. 

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

And if you could get someone like that I would 100% trade Lindhom. 

 

I'm just really skeptical you'll get that. 

what packaged deal could get us the #3. In assuming they'd want more, but also get a player that has history with Johnny getting him 115.

 

I guess it could mean our first and Lindholm. But I'm weary of that.

[cross16]

26 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

what packaged deal could get us the #3. In assuming they'd want more, but also get a player that has history with Johnny getting him 115.

 

I guess it could mean our first and Lindholm. But I'm weary of that.

 

I'm not sure there is a package that could get that honestly but Lindholm and the first is probably what it would take. I don't get why Columbus should take any less. 

 

I don't see Columbus moving 3 and I definitely don't see them doing it for a UFA next year. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I'm not sure there is a package that could get that honestly but Lindholm and the first is probably what it would take. I don't get why Columbus should take any less. 

 

I don't see Columbus moving 3 and I definitely don't see them doing it for a UFA next year. 

 

I get the situations and ages are different, but Tkachuk was only one year from walking when we signed. I also get that those deals don't tend to be in the favour of the team. But I assume that teams are going to want Lindholm and will pay. He is a legit #1C. 

Someone else might have pointed out that if he decides he doesn't want to sign, they have the ability to get what they can at the TDL where prices are a lot higher sometimes, at the very least, get what they paid for. 

 

I think maybe somewhere in-between is where his value is at... Maybe it is Bo Horvat, or slightly higher. I don't expect a Tkachuk like deal though. 

 

I am with you, ideally he signs with the Flames and we can work out the lines accordingly. Like everything on here, it's all just conversation fodder, playing make-belief with our team. We are in limbo and change is coming and we just don't know what is happening. 

 

Like you said, those are pie-in-the-sky ideas, but I don't think anyone felt the Flames could get what they did for Tkachuk at the time. Maybe there's a deal to be had somewhere?

[cross16]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I get the situations and ages are different, but Tkachuk was only one year from walking when we signed. I also get that those deals don't tend to be in the favour of the team. But I assume that teams are going to want Lindholm and will pay. He is a legit #1C. 

Someone else might have pointed out that if he decides he doesn't want to sign, they have the ability to get what they can at the TDL where prices are a lot higher sometimes, at the very least, get what they paid for. 

 

I think maybe somewhere in-between is where his value is at... Maybe it is Bo Horvat, or slightly higher. I don't expect a Tkachuk like deal though. 

 

I am with you, ideally he signs with the Flames and we can work out the lines accordingly. Like everything on here, it's all just conversation fodder, playing make-belief with our team. We are in limbo and change is coming and we just don't know what is happening. 

 

Like you said, those are pie-in-the-sky ideas, but I don't think anyone felt the Flames could get what they did for Tkachuk at the time. Maybe there's a deal to be had somewhere?

 

There is always the potential that I am wrong for sure. 

 

But I don't see this as the same thing for multiple reasons.

1. I don't' agree., he is not a legit #1 center and he showed that this year IMO. Very good player but I don't think he is the type that a team would go "all in" for. 

2. Based on point 1, Tkachuk was that player. This was talked about throughout the whole trade/saga, Tkachuk is a unicorn when it comes to the league. His ability to impact the game in all 3 zones at an elite level, combined with the fact he can mix it up physically, agitate, his attitude etc all makes him a very unique player. 

3. 24 vs 28. Your acquiring Tkachuk and paying him for all his prime years. You'll have to tack on some extra years on the back of Lindholm's age curve. so yes they were both pending UFAs, but what you were buying, and how long it should be good for is quite a bit different. 

4. While the talent level is that trade was crazy, the contract situation wasn't favorable to the Flames. I said this at the time and it's even stronger now but for all the flack he took, Zito did well to put pending UFAs in the deal.  Hard to find teams that have multiple pending UFAs like that they are willing to deal. 

 

Perhaps his value is higher than Horvat as you could pretty easily make the case he is the better player, I'm just not sure that matters much. I don't think the talent impact of the acquisition drives the offer as much as the years of control you get on the player, especially when it comes to giving up high end future assets. 

 

Think the Forsberg for Erat trade is what really set that off IMO. That was your case of a GM getting desperate and giving up a prime future asset for what he thought was the missing piece. It blew up and I think every since you'll seen a shift in the league. 

 

to be clear I think Lindholm is a very desirable asset and you'll get plenty of teams interested. Just think in terms of the price the return will be more lottery ticket based and not include more sure things.