GDT - Flames @ Blues - January 10 2023 - 6:00PM MT Start

[sak22]

I find the goaltending situation a lot trickier than most.  From a current perspective the choice is obvious ride Vladar as the #1 for a while and trade Markstrom in the offseason.  The problem is how do you trade him, you don't have many teams that have the need for a 6 million goalie, or the space to take one on then you factor in the NMC , one year of a cap dump of Monahan cost a 1st I'd expect a higher price for a 3 year cap dump.  The buyout is probably the better option to get rid of him but that comes with 2 years of dead cap over 4 million.  So from a contingency perspective I can see why they are continuing to go with Markstrom because you need to build him up because at this rate he will cost parts of the future to get rid of.

[robrob74]

5 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I find the goaltending situation a lot trickier than most.  From a current perspective the choice is obvious ride Vladar as the #1 for a while and trade Markstrom in the offseason.  The problem is how do you trade him, you don't have many teams that have the need for a 6 million goalie, or the space to take one on then you factor in the NMC , one year of a cap dump of Monahan cost a 1st I'd expect a higher price for a 3 year cap dump.  The buyout is probably the better option to get rid of him but that comes with 2 years of dead cap over 4 million.  So from a contingency perspective I can see why they are continuing to go with Markstrom because you need to build him up because at this rate he will cost parts of the future to get rid of.

 

i just think Sutter needs to start holding him accountable like he has with Vladar. Calls Vladar out every loss. I might be exaggerating on that as it just seems like he's calling every young player out on their games in losses.
 

To a lot of us, Markstrom just isn't working right now. He needs to find a way to refocus. Maybe he just came in to the season with a ton of pressure to get back to 1st in the division. A lot had the flames pegged to compete for it. But he's not been the same goalie since game one of the oilers series.

 

get Vladar a bunch, have Markstrom work on mechanics and get the odd game for a bit. Then, in 15-20 games, you'd hope Markstrom finds his game. 
 

i just don't know how long you can wait for him to "find his game."

 

 

[cross16]

42 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I find the goaltending situation a lot trickier than most.  From a current perspective the choice is obvious ride Vladar as the #1 for a while and trade Markstrom in the offseason.  The problem is how do you trade him, you don't have many teams that have the need for a 6 million goalie, or the space to take one on then you factor in the NMC , one year of a cap dump of Monahan cost a 1st I'd expect a higher price for a 3 year cap dump.  The buyout is probably the better option to get rid of him but that comes with 2 years of dead cap over 4 million.  So from a contingency perspective I can see why they are continuing to go with Markstrom because you need to build him up because at this rate he will cost parts of the future to get rid of.

 

I don't think it needs to get this dramatic. Why is giving Vladar a run meaning they need to trade Markstrom? Why is acknowledging that Markstrom is fighting it right now mean he is done as a Flame, or done as an NHL goalie? I think there are far more scenarios at play then this. 

 

I don't see how giving Vladar a run of games and treating him like a number 1 at this moment of time means anything other than at this point in time he is there best bet to win games. I think we are reaching if any further conclusions are drawn outside of that. Let it play out and then the plan becomes clearer. 

 

Markstrom would hardly be the first, and he won't be the last, number 1 goalie to fight it for a season and then bounce back and be excellent the following year. Even that is getting ahead of ourselves because he could find his game later in the year too. 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't think it needs to get this dramatic. Why is giving Vladar a run meaning they need to trade Markstrom? Why is acknowledging that Markstrom is fighting it right now mean he is done as a Flame, or done as an NHL goalie? I think there are far more scenarios at play then this. 

 

I don't see how giving Vladar a run of games and treating him like a number 1 at this moment of time means anything other than at this point in time he is there best bet to win games. I think we are reaching if any further conclusions are drawn outside of that. Let it play out and then the plan becomes clearer. 

 

Markstrom would hardly be the first, and he won't be the last, number 1 goalie to fight it for a season and then bounce back and be excellent the following year. Even that is getting ahead of ourselves because he could find his game later in the year too. 

 

Yes that's what I see as well.

A lot of the top goalies fight it from time to time.

But we can't just wait for him to get it together.

Vladar is the better goalie right now.

Play him while he is.

[cross16]

54 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I think yes, but also think if the team can clean up its D it can change some of those numbers, like the OT goal last night. How many goals like that have been scored against? To further the need for better D and Goaltending, how many goals like that have the Flames scored on the chances they've had?

 

how many odd-man rushes have the Flames had where nothing happens? Not that that changes everything, but also, because scoring is down, how much of the mistakes are due to the need of scoring more and then gripping the stick too tight? Maybe the turnovers happen anyway? 
 

Marky is letting in too many softies and his mechanics are off. I'd say the same has been for most of the team? 

 

It could yes, it always could. But at the same time the Flames are a pretty good defensive team. Not perfect mind you, but they are top 10 in most categories . Vladar actually is the busier of the 2 goalies and is still out performing Makrstrom. 

 

Like I said I absolutely agree there are things this team can do better, number 1 being they need to find some confidence. I think the biggest issue with the Flames right now is they just have no confidence as a team. Like you say a lot of griping sticks, overthinking it etc. I think they are a good team, and have played like a good team for a while now but it's so hard to be a great team if you don't have confidence in your game, yourself or your group. That's really where last year's group turned the corner. 

 

But it's also very very difficult to get that to level if you are not getting the saves at the other end. 

[pikey7883]

I think Huberdeau’s reaction at the end of the game tells a very good story of where this team is at currently. He turned the puck over deep in their end, to me what looked to be an intended drop pass to Anderson who was going the other way, and actually put him in a bad position to defend the two on one around their blue line to red line. Then the puck goes in on a pretty good two on one execution on their part, and Hubie puts his hand up (like are you kidding me right now). Smashes his stick over the cross bar and skates off. Marky smashes his stick off the boards leaving the ice, then off the tunnel. 
Mistakes happen in hockey all the time, but I think what they’re feeling is every time we make 1 mistake it’s in the back of our net, which makes it so much harder to play loose and to play with some freedom and energy, because you’re terrified to make a mistake. 
Unfortunately and I hate to say it, but right now Sutter is feeding into that narrative by saying things like that second goal is on Ruzie because he didn’t get off the ice fast enough. 1 mistake, and it’s in the back of our net, and your getting called out for it.

It might be time to choose a Captain to be a bit of a new voice in the room. 

[redfire11]

I started paying closer attention to this a few games back and found it very evident the last 2 games (overtime very telling). Huberdeau loses 9 of 10 scrums along the boards or in the corners. Watch the difference where Dube or Mangi are north of 50%. 

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

I think Huberdeau’s reaction at the end of the game tells a very good story of where this team is at currently. He turned the puck over deep in their end, to me what looked to be an intended drop pass to Anderson who was going the other way, and actually put him in a bad position to defend the two on one around their blue line to red line. Then the puck goes in on a pretty good two on one execution on their part, and Hubie puts his hand up (like are you kidding me right now). Smashes his stick over the cross bar and skates off. Marky smashes his stick off the boards leaving the ice, then off the tunnel. 
Mistakes happen in hockey all the time, but I think what they’re feeling is every time we make 1 mistake it’s in the back of our net, which makes it so much harder to play loose and to play with some freedom and energy, because you’re terrified to make a mistake. 
Unfortunately and I hate to say it, but right now Sutter is feeding into that narrative by saying things like that second goal is on Ruzie because he didn’t get off the ice fast enough. 1 mistake, and it’s in the back of our net, and your getting called out for it.

It might be time to choose a Captain to be a bit of a new voice in the room. 

 

I think this is well said and I would agree with much of it. 

 

I think the expectations put on this team were unfair personally (too much change to expect them to be as good as last year's team) but they were high. It's not clicking for this group and the more it continues to be a fight the more the confidence wains and then the pressure of expectations weighs on them too. I know it doesn't feel like it but they've actually been playing pretty well as a team for over a month now. 

 

I also agree that this team's needs leadership to step up or develop. Not sure it's necessarily a captain being named (I think that's an overrated position) but think it's possible that right now Sutter is their leader. Great teams tend to be player led. 

[sak22]

15 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't think it needs to get this dramatic. Why is giving Vladar a run meaning they need to trade Markstrom? Why is acknowledging that Markstrom is fighting it right now mean he is done as a Flame, or done as an NHL goalie? I think there are far more scenarios at play then this. 

 

I don't see how giving Vladar a run of games and treating him like a number 1 at this moment of time means anything other than at this point in time he is there best bet to win games. I think we are reaching if any further conclusions are drawn outside of that. Let it play out and then the plan becomes clearer. 

 

Markstrom would hardly be the first, and he won't be the last, number 1 goalie to fight it for a season and then bounce back and be excellent the following year. 

I'm just playing out a scenario where he doesn't find his game.  I'm not saying trade Markstrom, but a few posters here are, and thats not even including whats been said on the socials.  I'm speaking to those that want him gone immediately that the options at this rate aren't good, the only way that situation will improve is for him to find his way out of it, I'm not saying he needs the next 5 starts to figure it out, I just don't think the outside noise is very good for anyone's confidence either, I don't have the optimism that he turns it around in this market.  Kipper might be the only goalie I can think of here that could block it out, but he also had some interesting methods which may have helped which I don't think we really want others to follow in.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I find the goaltending situation a lot trickier than most.  From a current perspective the choice is obvious ride Vladar as the #1 for a while and trade Markstrom in the offseason.  The problem is how do you trade him, you don't have many teams that have the need for a 6 million goalie, or the space to take one on then you factor in the NMC , one year of a cap dump of Monahan cost a 1st I'd expect a higher price for a 3 year cap dump.  The buyout is probably the better option to get rid of him but that comes with 2 years of dead cap over 4 million.  So from a contingency perspective I can see why they are continuing to go with Markstrom because you need to build him up because at this rate he will cost parts of the future to get rid of.

 

I really hope that's the reason for playing Huberdeau over Ruzicka.  Build Huberdeau up for a trade.  Because it sure wasn't that Huberdeau was so clutch he demanded the minutes.

[cross16]

46 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I'm just playing out a scenario where he doesn't find his game.  I'm not saying trade Markstrom, but a few posters here are, and thats not even including whats been said on the socials.  I'm speaking to those that want him gone immediately that the options at this rate aren't good, the only way that situation will improve is for him to find his way out of it, I'm not saying he needs the next 5 starts to figure it out, I just don't think the outside noise is very good for anyone's confidence either, I don't have the optimism that he turns it around in this market.  Kipper might be the only goalie I can think of here that could block it out, but he also had some interesting methods which may have helped which I don't think we really want others to follow in.

 

 

I think it's also 2 separate questions. There are valid and good reasons to want to trade Markstrom outside of how he is playing right now. Contract, age, cap situation, Wolf, Vladar. I think it merits discussions even if he was playing well. Of course his level of play amplifies it but again I think the discussion about getting his game back and trading him can be separate and don't need to be linked. 

 

That was my point. It's 2 different discussions I think. 

[cross16]

Don't get the hate Huberdeau is receiving here. He tried to make a play in OT (what you want a player like him to do) and the defender made a better one. It happens. 

 

He's basically a PPG (20 in 22GP I think. 24 in his last 29) player since end of November and I've really liked his game for the most part. Sure mistakes here and there but his compete level is high, he is creating chances and he's getting his points. 

 

Don't get it. 

[sak22]

15 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I really hope that's the reason for playing Huberdeau over Ruzicka.  Build Huberdeau up for a trade.  Because it sure wasn't that Huberdeau was so clutch he demanded the minutes.

 

 

I know we'll just blame Sutter for ruining him, but I just don't see Ruzicka as anything more than a 30-50 point player in the league.  On most nights I notice Huberdeau, there were some even when he was get points that I would forget Ruzicka played if his name wasn't on the scoresheet.

[tmac70]

I just went through some of the stats for this season and last. So we lost JG and Chucky only one  may be on pace to tie or exceed their point total from the previous year. JG has 38 points and Chucky 52.  Matthew went from a Sutter defensive system to wide open and vise versa for Hubie, Matthew hasn't missed a beat yet Hubie and JG are question is why? 

I personally don't think FLA has any better roster than ours but will agree JG went to a fair inferior club. Same could be stated with Kadri he hasn't missed a beat. So what is the largest demonantor in this, Mental strength is the only thing I can come up with.  Kadri and Matthew are far more mentally stronger than Hubie and JG. For them this transition is going to take some time, only problem with us and Hubie is how long does it take. 

 

 

[pikey7883]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Sure mistakes here and there but his compete level is high, he is creating chances and he's getting his points. 

Last night he had an absolute beauty no look feed to Toffoli who rang it off the crossbar. He is an elite passer who has great vision, he will be fine. He needs a bit of good luck to come his way eventually here as well, from a mental standpoint I think.

@tmac70 I won’t post your whole quote. But I’m glad you looked that up. I think what you’re seeing is a player in Chucky who made a decision for him and is enjoying his life. Look good, feel good, play good; and he is. People can think what they want but I don’t believe that Johnny had this play out the way that he wanted, he smiled and said he was excited to be in Columbus but I don’t know if that is entirely true, Huberdeau got blindsided and was traded across North America. Two players who changed cities, teams, lifestyles and was not necessarily what they wanted. They’re professionals and will figure it out, but might need a true off-season to catch their breath.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Don't get the hate Huberdeau is receiving here. He tried to make a play in OT (what you want a player like him to do) and the defender made a better one. It happens. 

 

He's basically a PPG (20 in 22GP I think. 24 in his last 29) player since end of November and I've really liked his game for the most part. Sure mistakes here and there but his compete level is high, he is creating chances and he's getting his points. 

 

Don't get it. 

 

Just salary cap mentality, nothing else.  We need players to perform to their cap hit at minimum or else we have no chance.

 

I would absolutely get rid of Ruzicka if we was making $7-mil right now.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

 

 

I know we'll just blame Sutter for ruining him, but I just don't see Ruzicka as anything more than a 30-50 point player in the league.  On most nights I notice Huberdeau, there were some even when he was get points that I would forget Ruzicka played if his name wasn't on the scoresheet.

 

A 50 point player?  That was Mangiapane last season.

Dube a 30+ point player last season.

Ruzicka went from a p/gp player this season in his top 9 time to an after thought on the 4th line.

 

The 4th line isn't noticeable, mostly when we get down a goal or two.  Because they get benched.

Last night they play 11 minutes, but most game 9 or less.

How many players perform well on that line?

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

 

 

I know we'll just blame Sutter for ruining him, but I just don't see Ruzicka as anything more than a 30-50 point player in the league.  On most nights I notice Huberdeau, there were some even when he was get points that I would forget Ruzicka played if his name wasn't on the scoresheet.

 

Same.  On most nights I notice Huberdeau and not Ruzicka.  But on the scoresheet, Ruzicka was outscoring Huberdeau with less minutes and less PP time.

[conundrumed]

The loss is on Markstrom. No point beating around the bush. He has to be ready to start games, start periods. He isn't and he wasn't in the 3rd. Those were 2 bad goals that he can't be giving up because he's not focused to start. Their offside goal, sure, it was a nice goal but Markstrom completely deflated the entire team single-handedly. No point in sugar-coating it.

For all of the love Andersson's getting for points, him and Hanifin look terrible defensively far too often.

But for this game, a bit of a slow start but they definitely hit their groove.

Then Markstrom forgets the 3rd period has started and unravels everything.

[cross16]

33 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Just salary cap mentality, nothing else.  We need players to perform to their cap hit at minimum or else we have no chance.

 

I would absolutely get rid of Ruzicka if we was making $7-mil right now.

 

Be hard pressed to find a player like Huberdeau for 5.9million.  Don't agree he is underperforming his cap hit. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

The loss is on Markstrom. No point beating around the bush. He has to be ready to start games, start periods. He isn't and he wasn't in the 3rd. Those were 2 bad goals that he can't be giving up because he's not focused to start. Their offside goal, sure, it was a nice goal but Markstrom completely deflated the entire team single-handedly. No point in sugar-coating it.

For all of the love Andersson's getting for points, him and Hanifin look terrible defensively far too often.

But for this game, a bit of a slow start but they definitely hit their groove.

Then Markstrom forgets the 3rd period has started and unravels everything.

 

All you have to do is look at any game where we had a lead and lost the lead.

Too many to remember.

The frustrating part is when we get a goal after putting in great effort, then give it back.

Moments later.  We were up on Toronto twice, but managed to give up the lead twice, then lose in OT.

The OT part is annoying, but being forced to be there because of not making one save if worse.

Sometimes we have a great 1st, followed by a bunch of goals against.

It's not simply one player, but one player can sink you.

 

 

Anyway, run with the hot goalie, but keep an eye on them.

Marky had a good stretch, but then played ion the CHI game, perhaps one too many.

No reason to start him over Vladar.

Then go right back to him.

A goalie that plays poorly isn't going to get a shutout next game, not automatically.

Sometimes he plays like crap for a 2nd game.

It's why we have two goalies.

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

19 hours ago, cross16 said:

we are long past the point where this should matter 

It was a dig at the coach as he kept repeating that well into October.

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I think Huberdeau’s reaction at the end of the game tells a very good story of where this team is at currently. He turned the puck over deep in their end, to me what looked to be an intended drop pass to Anderson who was going the other way, and actually put him in a bad position to defend the two on one around their blue line to red line. Then the puck goes in on a pretty good two on one execution on their part, and Hubie puts his hand up (like are you kidding me right now). Smashes his stick over the cross bar and skates off. Marky smashes his stick off the boards leaving the ice, then off the tunnel. 
Mistakes happen in hockey all the time, but I think what they’re feeling is every time we make 1 mistake it’s in the back of our net, which makes it so much harder to play loose and to play with some freedom and energy, because you’re terrified to make a mistake. 
Unfortunately and I hate to say it, but right now Sutter is feeding into that narrative by saying things like that second goal is on Ruzie because he didn’t get off the ice fast enough. 1 mistake, and it’s in the back of our net, and your getting called out for it.

It might be time to choose a Captain to be a bit of a new voice in the room. 

basically what i said only you said it better. 🥴 well and a bit more. 
 

I listened to the postgame on podcast today, and something I am hearing a lot of is complaining, like on here, about the lack of youth use. Pregame and postgame the announcers talk about the other team being depleted of regulars and how it's a great time for the Flames to take advantage of it. But, the Flames are tending to take those teams lightly, or maybe have less effort, play 1-2 periods of good hockey, but our coach is complaining about young players and their mistakes. How many mistakes do our vets make? Plus, these other teams with some AHL prospects covering for NHLers are beating or close to beating our Flames. 
 

so, why not use Pelletier in a situation like last night where he has played AHLers? Last night how many Blues players were out? I heard up to 6 or 8? 
 

if that many are out and they beat us, clearly effort beats size and skill when the size and skill lack effort. This coach creates anxiety for young players in how he handles them. They come up, and know, unless you're big, you're not gonna get a sniff, or a decent one at least. 

 

[travel_dude]

50 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

basically what i said only you said it better. 🥴 well and a bit more. 
 

I listened to the postgame on podcast today, and something I am hearing a lot of is complaining, like on here, about the lack of youth use. Pregame and postgame the announcers talk about the other team being depleted of regulars and how it's a great time for the Flames to take advantage of it. But, the Flames are tending to take those teams lightly, or maybe have less effort, play 1-2 periods of good hockey, but our coach is complaining about young players and their mistakes. How many mistakes do our vets make? Plus, these other teams with some AHL prospects covering for NHLers are beating or close to beating our Flames. 
 

so, why not use Pelletier in a situation like last night where he has played AHLers? Last night how many Blues players were out? I heard up to 6 or 8? 
 

if that many are out and they beat us, clearly effort beats size and skill when the size and skill lack effort. This coach creates anxiety for young players in how he handles them. They come up, and know, unless you're big, you're not gonna get a sniff, or a decent one at least. 

 

 

I don't know if it's always effort.  More like playing safe too much and trying to defend instead of going offense.

To me that's a coaching issue.  Sutter talks all the time about playing for 3 goals or less.

Got 3?  Play safe.  Don't defend by being offensive.  Sit back, let the play come to you.

And Sutter says we don't score in the middle, so get more volume.

Funny, we scored what 3 from the slot?

 

So we go into games where the volume replaces quality.

We shoot 40 and score 1.  Big surprise.

Don't make as many mistakes when you shoot as soon as you can, regardless of the angle.

How many times do we just fire it on net regardless of the on ice situation?

Player without a stick?  Just shoot it at the net and hope goalie doesn't freeze it.

Goalie without a stick?  Shoot a low percentage shot or an angle that goes out of the zone.

[robrob74]

20 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

Last night he had an absolute beauty no look feed to Toffoli who rang it off the crossbar. He is an elite passer who has great vision, he will be fine. He needs a bit of good luck to come his way eventually here as well, from a mental standpoint I think.

@tmac70 I won’t post your whole quote. But I’m glad you looked that up. I think what you’re seeing is a player in Chucky who made a decision for him and is enjoying his life. Look good, feel good, play good; and he is. People can think what they want but I don’t believe that Johnny had this play out the way that he wanted, he smiled and said he was excited to be in Columbus but I don’t know if that is entirely true, Huberdeau got blindsided and was traded across North America. Two players who changed cities, teams, lifestyles and was not necessarily what they wanted. They’re professionals and will figure it out, but might need a true off-season to catch their breath.

how many times do we find someone get dumped or make a poor choice on someone and it just doesn't work out, and then to end up with the next one to come along and not be completely into them but they've shown interest.... wanting to be with someone who wants them? Those were Huberdeau's words in a nutshell... not necessarily a 100% choice, but we wanted him. He didn't feel wanted in Florida the way it went down.