Flames 22/23 Lineup

[cross16]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker said:

 

Yeah, maybe. I've been meaning to check out a Wranglers game, but I do watch them practice almost every week because I find myself at WinSport.

 

I was really upset about the Phillips thing, and you may be right - but there were plenty of opportunities to put him in. If it were up to me, I'd have put him in for Columbus, and San Jose without any hesitation. I would have liked to have seen him get pushed off the puck for around 10 games. I know that's a lot when you're 500 at best, and the expectations are that you're going to go on a long playoff run, or your season is a failure.

 

I get that the bump in pay is really nice, and I hope that the next time I pull in to the parking lot at WinSport I see a new sweet ride in the lot for number 11/41, but short of grow six inches, and put on another 40 pounds, I don't know what is left for Matthew Phillips to do. He has risen to the occasion at every level. He's a local kid, and grew up with a dream to play for the Flames.

 

I totally grant that Darryl Sutter may be right (he is paid a lot of money to coach the Flames, and I was paid very little money to coach the A3 U13 North Shore Storm), but Jeez Louise, this is bad messaging. There's a good chance that Matthew Phillips leaves after this season, and goes on to have a great career in Europe, and a very small chance that he goes to on to have a hall-of-fame career with the Tampa Bay Lightning - but Christ, set him up to succeed, and give him a legitimate opportunity to fail. It's hard to "force anyone's hand" in 18 minutes of ice time.

 

Love.

 

And I don't really disagree with you. If I were pulling the strings I would have given him a shot. 

 

My only perspective i'm offering is I think there is some logic in what Sutter is doing and i'm not sure I agree it's bad messaging. Having said that, if he treats Pelletier the same way then I would 100% disagree the messaging is poor and would have some more criticism for Sutter. I think at the end fo the day there is a uniqueness to Phillips case that goes beyond just general player development but I certainly don't disagree with your take there. 

[travel_dude]

Lines from practice.  You will notice that Duehr in and Pelletier not.  Cuz that's what you do when you call up a guy over a point per game and a guy at 1/2 a point per game.  It's 4th line duty, so it makes some sense.  Then again, Lucic on the 4th line makes as much sense.

 

Dube-Lindholm-Toffoli

Lucic-Kadri-Huberdeau

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Lewis-Ruzicka-Duehr

Pelletier-Zohrona

[travel_dude]

By the looks of it Markstrom getting the start against STL.

3 goals against in 11 shots last game.

Vladar had 1 in 14 shots.

 

Markstrom has looked good in most of his last 5 starts, except against CHI.

Tempting fate I guess.

Binnington has been up and down, hope we get the down version.

[sak22]

 

Big congrats to Walker Duehr on becoming the very first man to ever play in the NHL.

[conundrumed]

23 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Lines from practice.  You will notice that Duehr in and Pelletier not.  Cuz that's what you do when you call up a guy over a point per game and a guy at 1/2 a point per game.  It's 4th line duty, so it makes some sense.  Then again, Lucic on the 4th line makes as much sense.

 

Dube-Lindholm-Toffoli

Lucic-Kadri-Huberdeau

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Lewis-Ruzicka-Duehr

Pelletier-Zohrona

I heard Pelletier was taking his reps in and out on the 1st line.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

 

Big congrats to Walker Duehr on becoming the very first man to ever play in the NHL.

 

All those girls that made the NHL, eh?

LOL

Funny way of saying it.

 

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I heard Pelletier was taking his reps in and out on the 1st line.

 

Really, so that meant he was splitting time with Dube?

Would like him to be tried for some reps as RW.

 

[travel_dude]

This is a little disturbing.  Treatment is person, but it seems to be different than family issues mentioned.  Maybe we read that into the reason for him missing time....

 

Frank Seravalli confirms moments ago on #Flames Talk that Oliver Kylington is still receiving treatment from the players assistance program and that there still no answer on his return. Regarding his fitness, Frank confirms that Oliver has been skating. Hoping the best for Oliver

[cross16]

Think it should be pointed out that the players treatment program goes beyond just addressing substances. There are many avenues of support available through that program so the word "treatment" shouldn't imply a conclusion. 

 

There is really no news here IMO. Hope Kylington continues to get whatever he needs and kudos to the Flames for keeping this private, as it should be. 

[travel_dude]

Interesting stats for Markstrom.

In his first 29 starts last season he was 15-9-5 with a 2.13 and 926, with 6 shutouts.

This year (in 27 starts), he is 13-10-4 with 2.80 .894 and zero shutouts.

Even with the poor stats, we are only 3 points back with 2 less games played.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Think it should be pointed out that the players treatment program goes beyond just addressing substances. There are many avenues of support available through that program so the word "treatment" shouldn't imply a conclusion. 

 

There is really no news here IMO. Hope Kylington continues to get whatever he needs and kudos to the Flames for keeping this private, as it should be. 

 

Probably the wrong word to use was "treatment".

All it does is confude the issue.

Leads many fans to conclude it was drugs.

I'm not saying I think that, but that is what a lot would read into it.

 

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Probably the wrong word to use was "treatment".

All it does is confude the issue.

Leads many fans to conclude it was drugs.

I'm not saying I think that, but that is what a lot would read into it.

 

treatment could be mental health treatment. I wonder if the fall into the boards was worse than he thought?

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Probably the wrong word to use was "treatment".

All it does is confude the issue.

Leads many fans to conclude it was drugs.

I'm not saying I think that, but that is what a lot would read into it.

 

 

Well "treatment" is a fair word so long as you understand that the program does more than just treat substances and that was really the only reason behind my post. Not intended or aimed at you at all. 

 

If Kylington is away dealing with anything he should be received treatment from the program as it what the program is meant for. Doesn't matter drugs, mental health, whatever. 

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Well "treatment" is a fair word so long as you understand that the program does more than just treat substances and that was really the only reason behind my post. Not intended or aimed at you at all. 

 

If Kylington is away dealing with anything he should be received treatment from the program as it what the program is meant for. Doesn't matter drugs, mental health, whatever. 

 

Like I was sayind, many fans aren't understanding of the term.

Many times you hear the word used, the player comes out and says they were addicted to X.

Yes, there is mental health as well, but to the casueal fan, it sounds diferent.

FS should have just let it lie.

[JTech780]

Not sure where to put this.

 

I am less concerned with the lineup and who is playing with whom, or which youngster should be in the lineup over which veteran. IMO the makeup of the forwards and defense aren’t the issue with this team. The offense is on par with last years team and everything points to them just mostly being unlucky more than anything else. 
 

Even defensively I believe they are giving up around the same amount of shots and chances as last year.

 

The big issue is goaltending. Halfway through the year and Markstrom has an .893 save percentage and a 5v5 save percentage of .900. He hasn’t been good enough.

 

I am not sure I understand the reluctance to play Vladar. He is at .906 and at .920 at 5v5. Right now he is the goalie that gives this team the best chance to win, and right now we need to win games. We can’t wait on Markstrom to find his game.

 

To me that is and has always been the biggest knock on Sutter and over reliance on his stater good or bad.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

Not sure where to put this.

 

I am less concerned with the lineup and who is playing with whom, or which youngster should be in the lineup over which veteran. IMO the makeup of the forwards and defense aren’t the issue with this team. The offense is on par with last years team and everything points to them just mostly being unlucky more than anything else. 
 

Even defensively I believe they are giving up around the same amount of shots and chances as last year.

 

The big issue is goaltending. Halfway through the year and Markstrom has an .893 save percentage and a 5v5 save percentage of .900. He hasn’t been good enough.

 

I am not sure I understand the reluctance to play Vladar. He is at .906 and at .920 at 5v5. Right now he is the goalie that gives this team the best chance to win, and right now we need to win games. We can’t wait on Markstrom to find his game.

 

To me that is and has always been the biggest knock on Sutter and over reliance on his stater good or bad.

 

Last season, the Flames were 6th in GF and 3rd in GA so it's been a huge step backwards in both categories.

 

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2021/league

 

Sutter is committed to his vets in general.  Vets can do no wrong.

[sak22]

19 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Last season, the Flames were 6th in GF and 3rd in GA so it's been a huge step backwards in both categories.

 

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2021/league

 

Sutter is committed to his vets in general.  Vets can do no wrong.

Kevin Rooney says hi.  Might be hard to call him a vet as he only had 200 games, but he is on the older half of forwards.  I'd also throw in Brad Richardson from last year as a guy who did enough wrong to be sitting more than playing.  The issue isn't vets as a whole this year IMO, Stone is only playing because of Kylington and everyone else sucks, the only vet that is an issue is Lucic in the top 6.  We don't really have a vet issue, Lewis has been excellent for his role, Backlund is playing well, Kadri is playing well, Coleman is playing well for his role, and Toffoli is #2 in points that's the over 30 club, not a vet issue its 2 players Lucic and Stone.

[cross16]

39 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Last season, the Flames were 6th in GF and 3rd in GA so it's been a huge step backwards in both categories.

 

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2021/league

 

Sutter is committed to his vets in general.  Vets can do no wrong.

 

Depends on how you want to look at it. At this time last year the Flames had played 36 games.  

 

5 on5 they were scoring at 2.48/60 clip on 2.71 Expected goals for.. This year's it's 2.68 on expected goals of 2.8. 

Last year they were giving up 2.1 and 2.38 Expected goals against. This year's it's 2.46 on 2.39 expected goals against. 

 

All Strengths:

Last year scoring 3.14 on 3.04 expected goals for. Giving up 2.55 on 2.7 Expected goals against. 

This year's its 3 on 3.21 Expected goals for. Giving up 2.91 on 2.82 expected goals against. 

 

Jtech isn't really off, goaltending does jump out as a key difference. The other one being is that last year's group took off in February (10-1) and it remains to be seen if this group can take that next step that got them to those levels. 

 

[conundrumed]

From Friedman’s 32 thoughts:

 

5. At some point, Calgary has to give their top prospects a legit shot. I don’t know if Jakob Pelletier — 96 points in 97 career AHL games — is the scorer they need, but I do know we’re not going to find out if he spends his NHL call-up eating press-box hot dogs (although they are tasty). 

 

 

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

From Friedman’s 32 thoughts:

 

5. At some point, Calgary has to give their top prospects a legit shot. I don’t know if Jakob Pelletier — 96 points in 97 career AHL games — is the scorer they need, but I do know we’re not going to find out if he spends his NHL call-up eating press-box hot dogs (although they are tasty). 

 

 

 

Just don't tell Sutter this.  He was annoyed at being asked about Phillips.

Yep, AHL All Star Matthew Phillips.  

Some players are too good for the AHL and not good enough to be paid to eat popcorn.

And pocket dogs.

Was it Francis that was in the press box with Pelletier the other night?

Poor kid.  EF probably asked him how he feels being a top prospect and not playing.

[MP5029]

We’ll make no wonder Cgy is struggling, when you use Lucic in your regular top 9 that’s a HUGE problem….Having said this, it’s only been recent and maybe it’s to get his production up and raise his trade value before TDL? Huge maybe cause we all know Sutrer’s ways with Vets so it’s either because it’s the Sutter way or it’s to raise his value for TDL….anyway…moving on.

 

with the Licic issue addressed, as best as I can, the fact of the matter is this team is not clicking…and I don’t think it has anything to do with talent but rather line construction…

 

first, Kadri at Ctr is horrible on the FO…besides age, this is why I didn’t want him, that and $$$…much to my shock though his contract is not horrible but his FO ability is still sub-par for a top 9 Ctr…the rest of his game is great and totally top 9 clear solution to this is move him to RW…

 

second, Backlund is definitely a top 9 FO Ctr but his scoring is not, yet his possession is…obvious solution, especially with Kadri probably being better suited for wing duties…move him to 2nd line Ctr again and keep him with Manji 

 

this brings us to Coleman, he’s definitely a shutdown 3rd liner…top level too so keep him there.

 

so this leaves some obvious holes in the line up, like where dose Toffoil fit? He’s been producing but on the same note he’s still kinda a square peg in a round hole…maybe 3rd line with Coleman on the LW? Could work, but would totally depend on who’s the 3rd line Ctr…personally I’d use Toffoil for a trade to upgrade the D with the absence of Kylington…it’s time to accept he’s not here for this season so fill the hole, Toffoil is the best and easiest to move chip (has not clauses) and salary for production is not bad either…this could also line up well To have Ruzicka take the 3rd line Ctr slot 

 

so with that said, we would need to add a body and my thoughts are Dunclair in Fla would be ideal…young but not too young, has chemistry with Hubby and his salary is not far off from Toffoil’s…maybe even a bit less…

 

with a little luck maybe we are able to move Lucic too and free up some more space to add a D…obviously Toffoil’s move would be for a reasonable asset to add a D but salary to add Dunclair would be another issue…hence moving Lucic…the only hick-up in this is what asset could be had to acquire Dunclair? Toffoil no, he’s gonna net you the D, and definitely not Lucic his value is nothing close…also both Lucic and Toffoil are just too much $$$ for Fla, the whole reason Fla moves Dunclair is for $$$ space in the cap.  Also, the other thing is how healthy and is Dunclair up

to game speed? Kinda a risky move, especially for this season but definitely goo for another year afterwards so it’s not a pure rental situation…

 

anyway the way I kinda figure if they made a few moves with Toffoil and Lucic the top 3 forward lines could be:

 

Hubby/Lindy/Dunclair

Manji/Backlund/Kadri 

Coleman/Ruzicka/Dube 

 

4th would be a combo of Lewis/Dhur/Ritchie/or even Coleman of

you want to Slot Pelletier into the 3rd line…

 

on D, would be pretty much what we have but hopefully an add of a D on bottom pairing, maybe a mobile

D like Kylington to pair with Big z and move stone and Makey to the reserve slots where they probably should be…

 

Anderson/Hanifian

Tanev/Weegar 

big z/ Kylington replacement 

 

Stoner

Makey 

 

deal with the D in the off season of Kylington returns next year..heck Tanev hasn’t got much left in the healthy tank so it may be a wise move for that reason alone? 

 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, sak22 said:

Kevin Rooney says hi.  Might be hard to call him a vet as he only had 200 games, but he is on the older half of forwards.  I'd also throw in Brad Richardson from last year as a guy who did enough wrong to be sitting more than playing.  The issue isn't vets as a whole this year IMO, Stone is only playing because of Kylington and everyone else sucks, the only vet that is an issue is Lucic in the top 6.  We don't really have a vet issue, Lewis has been excellent for his role, Backlund is playing well, Kadri is playing well, Coleman is playing well for his role, and Toffoli is #2 in points that's the over 30 club, not a vet issue its 2 players Lucic and Stone.

 

i think we are more seeing the reluctance of playing Phillips and Pelletier in spots they can succeed in. 
 

it's not so much the vets... 

 

I see your point and agree with it. 
I just see a hole in the top nine or a lack of cohesion, and while some might think it's too much of a gift to play a Pelletier with a Lindholm or Kadri, I think they earn the spot if they show they fit there when given a chance. 
 

for me, the idea of earning and gifting is where I have a problem with differing ideas. Some think players need to go from the fourth, to the third, to the second lines as earning a spot. I get it, but I also don't think a spot is gifted if they try someone on a line and then it works. 
 

right now the team looks better, but still missing something. With those

thoughts, the only way we can see real change is if we trade for a vet who has paid their dues and it's not seen as a gift to be played with players who have earned top6 spots. 
 

other teams with "more" injuries are outplaying the flames and are having to use AHL players to do it... that's the only issue I have with the vets. I see a lot doing good things, just the mix can be off and odd looking at times. 

[travel_dude]

It's been said that you don't need to play a top 6 prospect on the top 2 lines.

That is true, but you can't just have 4th line talent playing with them just because.

Want to use Pelletier outside the top 9?

Pelletier-Ruzicka-Duehr.

Basically a top line in the AHL.

Shelter them a bit and feed them 12 minutes if possible.

 

Lucic is not a top 6 power forward.

He is there for grit and creating space.

You don't need a 4th line for that purpose in that case.

Is it better to sit Pelletier and play Lewis for a marginal increase in grit?

[MP5029]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:26 PM, sak22 said:

Well in Aucoins case he didn't get in a game until his late 20's and Haydar's 23 games were with 3 different organizations.  I do agree that you never know based on 2 games, the reality is that the only way a regular leaves is through injury or horrendous play.  Huberdeau missed a couple games Ruzicka was next up, played well and replaced Rooney, outside of those 2 games and one that Lindholm missed due to illness and the entire top 9 has been relatively healthy this year, and add in last year where the top 6 was healthy all year.  There the argument about Lucic which has become a deadhorse argument, but outside of that who else goes, people don't like Lewis but I think he's been very good this year, Zoho is pretty meh.  Mange and Huberdeau haven't lived up to expectations, but there aren't many coaches in the league who would be sitting them (maybe Torts but that is it).

While to some extent this makes sense, it doesn’t matter if you can’t Score enough to win games…so, maybe it’s better to have a 4th line for the purpose of

making space for the other lines? Seemed

to work last year for Chucky, Gaudreau, Lindhom and Manji 

 

anyway, one of the more pressing issues is having a reliable CRT on the 2nd line that can win FO’s…if We could blend Kadri and Backlund would be the ireal

Ctr but unfortunately we can so…move Kadri to the wing…outside of his horrible

FO ability he’s definitely top 9…Backlund is too 9 for FO and possession easily but lacks the grit and offensive skills for too 9…maybe they could push Lucic back to the 4th line and try:

 

manji/Backlund/Kadri 

 

that could make for an impressive 2nd line…still have issues with the 1st line RW but maybe make a move for Dunclair…

 

Hubby/Lindy/Dunclair 

 

can’t see that being a bad move…possibly 2 very solid lines for a few years…

 

also give some options for the third with a mix of Coleman, Ruzi, Dube, Pelletier, heck

maybe even Zary 

 

simply put, Lucic in the top 9 shows there is a HUGE issue that needs to be fixed 

[The_People1]

13 hours ago, sak22 said:

Kevin Rooney says hi.  Might be hard to call him a vet as he only had 200 games, but he is on the older half of forwards.  I'd also throw in Brad Richardson from last year as a guy who did enough wrong to be sitting more than playing.  The issue isn't vets as a whole this year IMO, Stone is only playing because of Kylington and everyone else sucks, the only vet that is an issue is Lucic in the top 6.  We don't really have a vet issue, Lewis has been excellent for his role, Backlund is playing well, Kadri is playing well, Coleman is playing well for his role, and Toffoli is #2 in points that's the over 30 club, not a vet issue its 2 players Lucic and Stone.

 

Lucic is a problem but let's not steer this away from the obvious and that's big money plays over small money.  We can trim this roster down so its price/performance ratio is optimized and free up so much money this summer to do bigger things.  In a cap era, we can't waste cap space on under performers just because we want to be nice and stuff. 

 

As you've mentioned, Markstrom is marginally better than Vladar and Wolf looks like the real deal.  Save $-millions there by moving Markstrom this summer.  Won't get much because not many teams are looking and have cap space.  Not many teams want a 32-year-old coming off a bad season with 4-years remaining and $6-mil-per.  Just cut losses and move on.  We signed him via UFA anyways.

 

Huberdeau at $10.5-mil producing at $5-mil level is concerning if not franchise killing.  Can he turn it around?  Let's see.  Of course I hope so.  Of course he's beginning to.  But still far off $10.5-mil-per.  it's not too much to ask a $10.5-mil player to be a top 5 NHL play driver or play maker or finisher, etc.  He's so average all around.  What can we get if we trade him now?  I feel Montreal would be willing do give us something decent.  I assume Montreal will also target PLD this summer.  

 

And Weegar at $6.25-mil, is having the most frustrating season of his life and you can tell by his body language on the ice.  He should play below Zadorov on the depth chart.  Some were saying we will be pleasantly surprised because he's better than Jakob Chychrun and he will be our new #1 LD.  Next season he will be the highest paid Dman on the team.  Big yikes.