travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 10 hours ago, The_People1 said: Suggesting we go all in to win the Cup this year before we blow it up for a total rebuild is Debbie Downer? I was referring to the parts about the new two not wanting to sign here. Maybe I read it wrong but it looked that way. I agree about going for the cup. I don't agree that it leads to blowing it up. If neither signs, then we are essentially forced to a re-tool of some degree. But I don't think that is due to them walking. Last year of his contract or not, he doesn't set us up like Chia. He can go out with a bang by trading the new two for a big haul. Leave it to the successors to plan the rebuild part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 26 minutes ago, robrob74 said: you mention Van. Their rebuild is Canadian and what happens when teams like Vancouver,and Calgary rush them, and think they're done prematurely. Probably. But Buffalo, NJ, Detroit, ANA still have a lot to prove. I do get that Detroit is getting a lot better, but a lot better when horrible was the starting point still hasn't proven anything. I guess it comes down to whether the potential for 5 years of being horrible with no guarantee that it will end well is your cup of tea. It's not mine. We've already proven zero patience for that as an org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 10 hours ago, jjgallow said: I was going to say lol. Nobody's trying to be a Debbie Downer I don't think, TD's a positivity purist fan, and I respect that. Especially since he's always able to back it up. Peeps is being near-term positive, but in a realist oriented sense. I'm being medium to long term positive...there are some deep drafts ahead and we are lined up well. I am a realist. As mentioned, I was reacting to what seemed to be overly negative stuff about the two new guys not wanting to sign. If that was not you intent, then my bad. The realist part of me suggests that a new player on your team wants to be paid and wants to play where he is liked. So, I would book Hubie at about 75% and Weegar at about 90%. I can understand that Hubie may have some reservations playing for Sutter, since Johnny described him as not easily pleased. Get an OT series winning goal, get a pat on the back is all. Ranting at players about perfection. Which I find odd, since if you need it to win, why are you whining about having to do it. You want to win, then put up. But, not all players are annoyed by a coach like that. They are inside their own heads and can't see the little things. So, I can see your argument about them not wanting to sign. Every draft is huge it seems. Every draft is deeper than (insert draft year here). But rebuilding through the draft is perhaps best for "Blow it up?". Trading for two pending UFA's doesn't put us in that territory unless they get traded for picks or walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Hopefully we hear something soon with Mangiapane. They have to exchange numbers tomorrow for the arbitration hearing Friday. I could be wrong on this, but I thought the new rules were that they are locked into arbitration once they exchange numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 15 minutes ago, travel_dude said: I am a realist. As mentioned, I was reacting to what seemed to be overly negative stuff about the two new guys not wanting to sign. If that was not you intent, then my bad. The realist part of me suggests that a new player on your team wants to be paid and wants to play where he is liked. So, I would book Hubie at about 75% and Weegar at about 90%. I can understand that Hubie may have some reservations playing for Sutter, since Johnny described him as not easily pleased. Get an OT series winning goal, get a pat on the back is all. Ranting at players about perfection. Which I find odd, since if you need it to win, why are you whining about having to do it. You want to win, then put up. But, not all players are annoyed by a coach like that. They are inside their own heads and can't see the little things. So, I can see your argument about them not wanting to sign. Every draft is huge it seems. Every draft is deeper than (insert draft year here). But rebuilding through the draft is perhaps best for "Blow it up?". Trading for two pending UFA's doesn't put us in that territory unless they get traded for picks or walk. actually he did say he was looking forward to that . He played for Quennevile, very similar styles and philosophies . He just said he knows he will have to work hard . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Hopefully we hear something soon with Mangiapane. They have to exchange numbers tomorrow for the arbitration hearing Friday. I could be wrong on this, but I thought the new rules were that they are locked into arbitration once they exchange numbers. i do believe they can sign a deal right up until the start of the case. I think somebody last year signed in the hallway 5 min before LOL ( not us , another team) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Hopefully we hear something soon with Mangiapane. They have to exchange numbers tomorrow for the arbitration hearing Friday. I could be wrong on this, but I thought the new rules were that they are locked into arbitration once they exchange numbers. Edit: They have till the hearing starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Edit: They have till the hearing starts. Yes, the original rule was up to the award, but the amendment made it up to the start of hearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, phoenix66 said: actually he did say he was looking forward to that . He played for Quennevile, very similar styles and philosophies . He just said he knows he will have to work hard . Had Q for some time, so it's different. Even if the styles are exactly the same, they would still be coach and player figuring each other out. I don't doubt he will fit in, just has to get used to the style or personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: Probably. But Buffalo, NJ, Detroit, ANA still have a lot to prove. I do get that Detroit is getting a lot better, but a lot better when horrible was the starting point still hasn't proven anything. I guess it comes down to whether the potential for 5 years of being horrible with no guarantee that it will end well is your cup of tea. It's not mine. We've already proven zero patience for that as an org. i get one part of it is the quality of the drafts, but I also think if someone believes in a teams drafting then the anxiety can be unfounded. If our drafting has improved the way most here think, then drafting at the top gives a better shot at high end that we miss. Granted, Bennett didn't turn out but Tkachuk did. Monahan was good for half a career. Injuries derailed him. but yup, the patience is zero. I only think they should I know they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, robrob74 said: i get one part of it is the quality of the drafts, but I also think if someone believes in a teams drafting then the anxiety can be unfounded. If our drafting has improved the way most here think, then drafting at the top gives a better shot at high end that we miss. Granted, Bennett didn't turn out but Tkachuk did. Monahan was good for half a career. Injuries derailed him. but yup, the patience is zero. I only think they should I know they won't. Okay, so as a fan that watches games regularly (every one most likely), I am not about to watch us lose for 5 years to possibly one day have a team that is watchable. Not a contender, but watchable. We went through at least one and I won't even go to the Young Gun days, since that was old world bad. The reasons for blowing the rebuild, assuming that we did, isn't really important. You are as liable to make some of those same types of decisions again. No team avoids them. So, we can go through that all over again and have 10 more years of getting to the point we were in 2018 or last season. Or end up a lot worse and have to go through it again. So we finished the rebuild and ended up with some bad signings that turned into bad trades that limited our ability to sign better talent or make great trades. $11M on two players that contributed little this past playoffs where $11M could have put us over the top. We are closer to contender than closer to a successful rebuild that might be better. There are about 150 players drafted every year that go on to being just okay. Some years more, some less. Looking back to the 2016 draft, your would be hard pressed to find more than about 30 that have yet to do much with their careers. Draft plus 6. First round about 10 players that have played a reasonable amount of games at a high level. Top end mostly in the top 20. Few exceptions like Debrincat in the 2nd. All I am getting at is that if you get 2 players per year in the top 20 of players available full draft, you might be lucky to have drafted a full team in 10 years. By then the oldest taps out or moves on. Your window is what, 3 years if you are lucky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, travel_dude said: Few exceptions like Debrincat in the 2nd. And Kyrou.😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 10 minutes ago, conundrumed said: And Kyrou.😬 I know about that one as well. Just a couple though, right? Girard. Hronek? Kyrou took 6 years before he stuck, so that make the rebuild with players like him extremely long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 St. Louis does well with not high picks. Pietrangelo was 4th oa, but I can't think of anyone else. Parayko, Kyrou, Thomas was a high 1st, Kostin the same, Tarasenko a mid-1st.. Am I missing someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Ottawa had a good 2nd rder in 2017 in Alex Formenton. I believe him and Jokipakka for Curtis Lazar. Ahhhh the things we do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 2 hours ago, travel_dude said: Okay, so as a fan that watches games regularly (every one most likely), I am not about to watch us lose for 5 years to possibly one day have a team that is watchable. Not a contender, but watchable. You don't want a contender? You only want something that is watchable? The cycle of life for sports franchises goes though rebuilds. Doesn't matter if it's the Lakers, Yankees, Cowboys, etc. They rebuild. Sometimes for 5 years. And their fans embrace every stage of the cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, The_People1 said: You don't want a contender? You only want something that is watchable? The cycle of life for sports franchises goes though rebuilds. Doesn't matter if it's the Lakers, Yankees, Cowboys, etc. They rebuild. Sometimes for 5 years. And their fans embrace every stage of the cycle. We just won our division. And maybe got better by losing our 2 primadonnas. That's contending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted August 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 43 minutes ago, The_People1 said: You don't want a contender? You only want something that is watchable? The cycle of life for sports franchises goes though rebuilds. Doesn't matter if it's the Lakers, Yankees, Cowboys, etc. They rebuild. Sometimes for 5 years. And their fans embrace every stage of the cycle. The NBA and NFL are different beasts. I would rather watch something where we are contenders now vs stuck in the cycle of rebuilds that so rarely go right. Have there been any recent success stories of rebuilds? How long did Tampa flounder before they got a cup? 10th year of Hedman and 7th of Kucherov. Does the fact that they only won in "special" years of the SC? COL circled the drain for many years, went up went down. Added through trade and TDL deal just enough to get a cup. Those are pretty long rebuilds and only two recent ones that managed to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said: A bit less than I expected but a fair deal. He is an asset either way. Get the Breadman some dough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted August 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Just now, travel_dude said: A bit less than I expected but a fair deal. He is an asset either way. Get the Breadman some dough. His closest comp was Forsling getting 2.667x3. This is less money and term so that's a win for the Flames. He's very tradeable at 2.5 if the Flames want to explore that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 1 hour ago, conundrumed said: St. Louis does well with not high picks. Pietrangelo was 4th oa, but I can't think of anyone else. Parayko, Kyrou, Thomas was a high 1st, Kostin the same, Tarasenko a mid-1st.. Am I missing someone? 56 minutes ago, conundrumed said: Ottawa had a good 2nd rder in 2017 in Alex Formenton. I believe him and Jokipakka for Curtis Lazar. Ahhhh the things we do.... Lots of good picks over the last 12 years for STL. Never really a rebuild that I can remember. Stop torturing me with those picks for crap players; Kyrou, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, travel_dude said: A bit less than I expected but a fair deal. He is an asset either way. Get the Breadman some dough. He'll be in his prime on the next one, will be interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 16 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said: His closest comp was Forsling getting 2.667x3. This is less money and term so that's a win for the Flames. He's very tradeable at 2.5 if the Flames want to explore that Agree. That’s a tidy deal. I was hoping for this range and 2 years. I don’t think many have huge faith in him but I do. I think he’ll get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, jjgallow said: He'll be in his prime on the next one, will be interesting When Tanev expires I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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