2022 Offseason

[robrob74]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, Tkachuk was the one that steered the ship to keep his options open.  Johnny signed to play hockey.  Tkachuk signed to keep his leverage high.  Different families.  We really only have speculation on the offer last summer.  JG was thinking about signing, but was he convinced?  The chance to pick your team had to be in the back of his mind.  As soon as he said he wasn't negotiating during the season, BT should have given up on him.  To me that's the biggest fail.  Sure we can say that he didn't do the right things to bring the cup, but not having a deal and letting it go to summer was the fail.

 

By that I mean we have to trade him.  TDL, 3 months before, whatever.  We weren't in the best circumstances for the entire year.  JG was still worth a lot in December January.  Hindsight, but he read the signs the way he wanted them to look.  

 

i agree! I think it's when he should have tried to trade him, or, just ride out the season, which I think is going to happen with Huberdeau and Weegar. They'll play out the season. We will get a two rounds of playoffs to cheer on and then go into a retool.

 

ya, maybe BT should have traded Johnny at the previous TDL, not this last one. Maybe in the 20-21 season he should've had a read on a re-sign opportunity then and traded for his best haul. Maybe that off-season was the best deal

he'd get. Maybe there was a Niewendyk type deal to be had?

[phoenix66]

59 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

it sounds to me like BT plays heavy hardball and our stars don't like it. I think it's maybe just a minuscule reason for losing Johnny. 
 

i think BT gets too much credit for the deals he signs. But to me, Lindholm came in as a second line RW maybe C who got paid as one at the time. The same goes for Hanifin. They're great deals, but at the time they were fair for what players they were coming into the organization. 
 

he left a sour taste in Gaudreau's mouth after the first extension when it took most of the summer, and you could see it in Johnny's game that year. He didn't look like he wanted to be on the ice after that. Maybe it was something else but he didn't look the same. 
 

then Tkachuk gets his deal and it looked like Johnny was raising his eyebrow to it like WTF is this? It's probably what Johnny should have gotten the first time around. Then BT lowballs Johnny again when they almost last summer. Didn't feel right, and then again drawing the whole thing out to the deadline.

 

BT should just pay Mangiapane. He's done everything the organization has asked of him. He's left money on the table in the past, like you said. When you say thousands I think you meant at least 500K per year. 
 

i don't know what he's worth. Is it still $1M/10 points scored? 
 

maybe that's the ratio to go at? 
 

5.5m/yr or buy some years and go 6m/yr over 8?
 

di we expect him to maintain his output?

how do we know he lowballed him?  he was not worth a 10-10.5 deal last year ..not even close. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

i agree! I think it's when he should have tried to trade him, or, just ride out the season, which I think is going to happen with Huberdeau and Weegar. They'll play out the season. We will get a two rounds of playoffs to cheer on and then go into a retool.

 

ya, maybe BT should have traded Johnny at the previous TDL, not this last one. Maybe in the 20-21 season he should've had a read on a re-sign opportunity then and traded for his best haul. Maybe that off-season was the best deal

he'd get. Maybe there was a Niewendyk type deal to be had?

 

So, you are projecting two US born players that maybe were already looking outside onto two players that spent their careers in FLA?  One might think that they are eager to sign here and have that part of their lives stable again.  Like JG and MT just did.

 

Compare it to your own situation.  Would you accept a job somewhere for one year and think, wow I can go somewhere else maybe in a year?  Or would you think I have a chance to get most or all of the things I want in life and be paid as good or better than elsewhere?

 

Maybe for some players, hockey is a gig thing.  Go somewhere make some money and go somewhere else.  No guarantee the place he may want to go to has an opening or will havve a roster good enough to make it worthwhile.  MTL is going to be a kid zone.  If Price is gone or continues to decline, they aren't even a playoff team.  Sure they would overpay for him this season, but he's not going to go there as a UFA.  We don't get that far down the road.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

i agree! I think it's when he should have tried to trade him, or, just ride out the season, which I think is going to happen with Huberdeau and Weegar. They'll play out the season. We will get a two rounds of playoffs to cheer on and then go into a retool.

 

ya, maybe BT should have traded Johnny at the previous TDL, not this last one. Maybe in the 20-21 season he should've had a read on a re-sign opportunity then and traded for his best haul. Maybe that off-season was the best deal

he'd get. Maybe there was a Niewendyk type deal to be had?

One thing with the Nieuwendyk deal is the full credit for that becoming a success for the Flames belongs to Iginla.  Iginla was an 11th overall who became the best player of his draft class which is pretty rare, add in going in to the draft he wasn't even the highest ranked RW from the Kamloops Blazers, he was really pegged at a 2nd liner 25 goal guy at best, and if that was all he peaked as then there is no way we talk about that as a great trade because the other piece was pretty lackluster and the player going out won a Conn Smythe.  Repeating that trade will be extremely difficult because players who smash their draft day expectations are still extremely rare.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

how do we know he lowballed him?  he was not worth a 10-10.5 deal last year ..not even close. 

 

There are some rumors that BT offered 7.5, but who really knows.  He even suggested that he was looking for houses last summer.  I find that somewhat unlikely unless he was going to stay.  He didn't need a new deal to stay here.  I was on that kick myself, but I think he was gone once he stopped negotiating.  The agent could easily have gotten a deal done.  BT would humm and haww, but the alternative was high risk.  

[DHT]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

He definitely did it the right way and I think that's a credit to the way he was brought up. Being around the NHL his entire life.

 

It sucks he didn't want to stay but he put the Flames in a position where they could get a significant return. He could have just went to arb and got the 1yr deal and forced the Flames to sell low. He didn't and credit to him.

 

And ultimately as a result, I don't think he will be hearing any boo's when he returns to the Dome. On the other hand, Johnny might...

Totally agree with you here. I have more respect for Tkachuk than Johnny, and I'm not a fan of Tkachuk. My first Flames jersey is Johnny's jersey, but I will be booing him when he's back in Calgary. 😀

[zima]

I don't know why but Jonny betrayed us he led BT on thinkinjg we had a chance and knew he was leaving so we couldn't get a pick out of him. I guess that should be a lesson to BT be careful when trying to take advantage of a player on a RFA he never forgot and pay back is a BTC 

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, you are projecting two US born players that maybe were already looking outside onto two players that spent their careers in FLA?  One might think that they are eager to sign here and have that part of their lives stable again.  Like JG and MT just did.

 

Compare it to your own situation.  Would you accept a job somewhere for one year and think, wow I can go somewhere else maybe in a year?  Or would you think I have a chance to get most or all of the things I want in life and be paid as good or better than elsewhere?

 

Maybe for some players, hockey is a gig thing.  Go somewhere make some money and go somewhere else.  No guarantee the place he may want to go to has an opening or will havve a roster good enough to make it worthwhile.  MTL is going to be a kid zone.  If Price is gone or continues to decline, they aren't even a playoff team.  Sure they would overpay for him this season, but he's not going to go there as a UFA.  We don't get that far down the road.

i didn't think Huberdeau would go to Montreal. I think he'd want to go where the best chance to win might be. 
 

I don't know if he is into certain kinds of cities, but just saying the Flames aren't in the best shape to win for the foreseeable future. Thinking we are a #2C and a top line singer away. At least another playmaker away as we saw how hard it was to get offence from other lines. Huberdeau only replaced Gaudreau as a playmaker. Gaudreau could assist other lines from the bench.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, DHT said:

Totally agree with you here. I have more respect for Tkachuk than Johnny, and I'm not a fan of Tkachuk. My first Flames jersey is Johnny's jersey, but I will be booing him when he's back in Calgary. 😀

 

I have to ask what changed in the last month for Tkachuk.  He was reasonable in his ask to be dealt, but there were really only one or two teams he would sign with.  I'm pretty sure that's what BT said.  CAR may have had a better offer, but I seriously doubt he would sign there.  He was all FLA, all the time.  The STL return has never been confirmed, so I don't even know if that was a serious offer or just a cap dump.

[sak22]

1 minute ago, DHT said:

Totally agree with you here. I have more respect for Tkachuk than Johnny, and I'm not a fan of Tkachuk. My first Flames jersey is Johnny's jersey, but I will be booing him when he's back in Calgary. 😀

I may be in the minority, but I feel more annoyed that Tkachuk flipped so quick from being open to long term at the end of May, to wanting out in 2 months, I can understand Johnny being more torn on staying vs. leaving as it is money vs. convenience.  Johnny at least has given a viable reason for leaving, Tkachuk is just a much better talker but it really did seem like he was planning on leaving 3 years ago and could've just said as much back then.  Either way I won't be booing either.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

i didn't think Huberdeau would go to Montreal. I think he'd want to go where the best chance to win might be. 
 

I don't know if he is into certain kinds of cities, but just saying the Flames aren't in the best shape to win for the foreseeable future. Thinking we are a #2C and a top line singer away. At least another playmaker away as we saw how hard it was to get offence from other lines. Huberdeau only replaced Gaudreau as a playmaker. Gaudreau could assist other lines from the bench.

 

He was on a Presidents Cup winning team last year, who went out and tried to get more assets.  And still were one or two pieces away.  After this off-season, most teams are missing those pieces.  If not all.  COL is back to being one piece down.  And exchanged a goalie for a high risk goalie.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He was on a Presidents Cup winning team last year, who went out and tried to get more assets.  And still were one or two pieces away.  After this off-season, most teams are missing those pieces.  If not all.  COL is back to being one piece down.  And exchanged a goalie for a high risk goalie.

I think we are missing a 1st line winger, 2nd line playmaker and prefer that to be a C, a 3rd line winger and then possibly a #1D. Markstrom Schat the bed and maybe we need a new starter. Not sure if that was a rare thing but he was bad. I like the Weegar add but is it enough? Is it ok to have too many RSD? Wow, can't believe we say that now.

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I have to ask what changed in the last month for Tkachuk.  He was reasonable in his ask to be dealt, but there were really only one or two teams he would sign with.  I'm pretty sure that's what BT said.  CAR may have had a better offer, but I seriously doubt he would sign there.  He was all FLA, all the time.  The STL return has never been confirmed, so I don't even know if that was a serious offer or just a cap dump.

i really dont think it changed per se, he did say he did his last deal for this actual purpose..where he was going to evaluate.. im sure he hadnt closed the door, but then said speaking to other teams in FA he was able to see what his options were 

 

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

There are some rumors that BT offered 7.5, but who really knows.  He even suggested that he was looking for houses last summer.  I find that somewhat unlikely unless he was going to stay.  He didn't need a new deal to stay here.  I was on that kick myself, but I think he was gone once he stopped negotiating.  The agent could easily have gotten a deal done.  BT would humm and haww, but the alternative was high risk.  

even then, seriously what had he accomplished.. was coming off an abysmal year .. in all but one season he was good but not great .. we all knew his playoff record . He picked his contract year to reinvent himself under Sutter and took not just one but probably 2 or 3 steps forward .. hindsight is great , but nobody saw this season coming .. Just like Tkachuk, the conversation was more around we need to qualify him at 9 and he wasn't showing himself to be a $9M player

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I had no idea where to put this, so I guess it's here.

Tkachuk interview on the Missin' Curfew podcast with the alleged toxic twins.

Good interview though. Worth the 21 minutes. Take away from it what you may.lol

The interview begins at 28:25.

 

 

There's nothing too much here other than that he hinted he felt he left money on the table during the last contract with the Flames which then allowed him to see what's out there this summer.

 

Rightly or wrongly, BT used Giordano's contract as an internal ceiling for dealing with his young stars which helped keep their cap hits low at the sacrifice of them being here a few years longer.

 

Pretty sure at the time, both Gaudreau and Tkachuk wanted $7.5-mil x 8 but Giordano's $6.75-mil stopped that.

 

In a good way, that allowed us to have the depth we had but now we pay the price.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

There's nothing too much here other than that he hinted he felt he left money on the table during the last contract with the Flames which then allowed him to see what's out there this summer.

 

Rightly or wrongly, BT used Giordano's contract as an internal ceiling for dealing with his young stars which helped keep their cap hits low at the sacrifice of them being here a few years longer.

 

Pretty sure at the time, both Gaudreau and Tkachuk wanted $7.5-mil x 8 but Giordano's $6.75-mil stopped that.

 

In a good way, that allowed us to have the depth we had but now we pay the price.

 

I didn't get that sense about Tkachuk.  He was signed after Gaudreau by two years.  He wanted to keep the term short.  BT wouldn't have wanted a 3 year deal structured that way, but there was really not a lot of choice.  

 

Tkachuk is the master politician.  He's not going to tell 100% truth.  He will say what he thinks people want to hear.  

[sak22]

20 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

There's nothing too much here other than that he hinted he felt he left money on the table during the last contract with the Flames which then allowed him to see what's out there this summer.

 

Rightly or wrongly, BT used Giordano's contract as an internal ceiling for dealing with his young stars which helped keep their cap hits low at the sacrifice of them being here a few years longer.

 

Pretty sure at the time, both Gaudreau and Tkachuk wanted $7.5-mil x 8 but Giordano's $6.75-mil stopped that.

 

In a good way, that allowed us to have the depth we had but now we pay the price.

If that's the case then I don't think GM's put those in place, that negotiation Gaudreau was coming off of a season where on the surface a 78 point season for year 2 was promising, but it was also a year where his home/road splits were absolutely dreadful and the road numbers that year should be cause for concern for a manager.  He also didn't have to deal with the threat of an offer sheet, so really it was a time BT had leverage.  We all have the hindsight knowledge now, but at the time you should've still been wary of if the league would adjust to him, as they had already shown on the road, or his size.  Judging by the fact only 3 teams made serious offers when he hit FA, it tells me most teams don't view him as a difference maker. 

 

I don't think the previous contracts had anything to do with it, its pretty standard teams will have troubles with RFA's from time to time.  As I mentioned before Iggy had no smooth negotiations with the Flames until his last deal which he signed early, Kipper went to arbitration and he never really got too close to UFA status.  Kucherov had troubles with Tampa, Point was late to camp.  etc.

[conundrumed]

I’m not sure Zadina would be available from Detroit, but I hope that’s the type of RW we can acquire. Young with lots of upside that D forced to work on his 200’ game so his stats don’t show his offence.

Could cost Hanifin though due to upside. Detroit has thrown a lot of depth in front of him, so it’s hard to read their plan with him. They could add to that for Hanifin I believe, but it’s an in-season move I’d bet. They have a ton of really good prospects.

Dependant on Edvinnson or Berggren making the team this year, they could use LD help.

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I’m not sure Zadina would be available from Detroit, but I hope that’s the type of RW we can acquire. Young with lots of upside that D forced to work on his 200’ game so his stats don’t show his offence.

Could cost Hanifin though due to upside. Detroit has thrown a lot of depth in front of him, so it’s hard to read their plan with him. They could add to that for Hanifin I believe, but it’s an in-season move I’d bet. They have a ton of really good prospects.

Dependant on Edvinnson or Berggren making the team this year, they could use LD help.

 

Why hasn't it worked out for Zadina?  Injuries?

 

He's trending bust for sure.  Maybe needs a change of scenery like Sam Bennett?

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Why hasn't it worked out for Zadina?  Injuries?

 

He's trending bust for sure.  Maybe needs a change of scenery like Sam Bennett?

Blashill refused to give him much offence space. Pretty much made him play 3rd line to improve his 200' game which he did. Not sure if Lalonde will utilize his bomb of a shot better. Let's just say no one misses Blashill.

Space is tight on D's roster:

Bert-Larkin-Raymond

Vrana-Copp-Perron

Rasmussen-Suter-Kubalik

Then there are still blue chip fwd prospects in Veleno and Berggren.

LD is weak with Chiarot, Maata and Oesterle but Edvinsson could potentially bust out similarly to Seider.

Hanifin would be a good fit regardless.

They can't offer much at C though. Veleno or Ras probably. Then they still have a bunch of good D prospects in Wallinder, Johannsen, Sebrango, McIsaac etc.

[conundrumed]

Owen Tippett's another, but Philly is a bit of a cesspool though D looks okay. What the heck happened to Ryan Ellis? Is his career unofficially over?

[phoenix66]

This is a pretty good article for those wondering what new deals for Huberdeau and Weegar could look like .. it's got Huberdeau at 8x11.9, and Weegar around 7.9 .  Pretty rational for those into the % principle .. 

Never knew that %wise , Phaneuf was our most expensive contract ever .

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2022/07/31/biggest-contracts-in-flames-history/

 

 

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

This is a pretty good article for those wondering what new deals for Huberdeau and Weegar could look like .. it's got Huberdeau at 8x11.9, and Weegar around 7.9 .  Pretty rational for those into the % principle .. 

Never knew that %wise , Phaneuf was our most expensive contract ever .

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2022/07/31/biggest-contracts-in-flames-history/

 

 

 

Iggy's deal for 5 years, so you are signing him to age 35.  We are talking about signing JH to 7-8 years, so you are paying for years past his likely contributing to date.  No different to signing JG to 7-8 years; you buy the last years as the low of his career.

 

I'm not suggesting you don't sign for that much, just that we are buying the last few years of elite, years of franchise level, and a couple of less than franchise.  He could be another Joe P. but could fade quicker.  Do what you have to do, but that has to be considered.

[phoenix66]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Iggy's deal for 5 years, so you are signing him to age 35.  We are talking about signing JH to 7-8 years, so you are paying for years past his likely contributing to date.  No different to signing JG to 7-8 years; you buy the last years as the low of his career.

 

I'm not suggesting you don't sign for that much, just that we are buying the last few years of elite, years of franchise level, and a couple of less than franchise.  He could be another Joe P. but could fade quicker.  Do what you have to do, but that has to be considered.

Oh absolutely.. personally I think we get it done in the 10's 

[The_Tribal Chief]

Never Been in so much muscle pain in my life lol

 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

This is a pretty good article for those wondering what new deals for Huberdeau and Weegar could look like .. it's got Huberdeau at 8x11.9, and Weegar around 7.9 .  Pretty rational for those into the % principle .. 

Never knew that %wise , Phaneuf was our most expensive contract ever .

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2022/07/31/biggest-contracts-in-flames-history/

 

 

ya, I hated that Phaneuf deal. I started seeing warts in his game, and rumour at the time was that he felt his game was good enough as is and didn't need to work on it. Felt a player like that isn't necessarily a winner, but also his "head was too big." Although we still should've gotten a better deal for him. Those damn leafs!