2022 Offseason

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think Kakko and Puljujarvi could be had via the offersheet.

 

EDM I don't see trading him to CGY, unless the Flames make an incredible offer, making offer-sheet the most likely scenario. 

 

NYR's got a cap pinch coming. 14 players signed and 13mill in space. The only way an offersheet works is if you overpay. Offer Kakko 4.2, which is the high end of the 2nd round pick comp, you probably get the player. NY could match, it would just really hamper their ability to address their 2nd line C. Kravtsov coming back could replace the modest production they got out of Kakko.

 

I don't know that it'll be the Flames, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see an offersheet signed by a Kakko or Puljujarvi. A team like Arizona or Anaheim could do it, they have space and an excess of picks. 

 

 

The problem with the offer sheet is that teams won't let a player go for a 2nd rounder.

And you are setting up for an OS coming back, should that team let the player go.

CAR got back at MTL and they didn't even lose the player.

 

With EDM, there is less likely an OS coming back, but we would have to overpay before they don't match.

4.2 is well over his value, especially iff it's longer than a couple of years.

But, do we get a player that valuable?

 

The problem with basement teams is the value of those picks is higher.

Have to use your own picks.

If they went 4.3 it would be their 1st and 3rd.

NY would let him go for that.

 

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Flames should be very interested in Kakko if he is available. I’d be shocked if he was but of for some reason he is they should be all over it. 
 

See what happens with Gaudreau obviously but assuming he is back my view of the flames if they want to take a step they have to scour the league for a player (or maybe players) they feel are ready to break out. It’s fun to talk about big names like Schiefele or Chychrun but I just don’t see they as realistic for the Flames. Need to try and find some value given their cap space, roster and asset list. 

 

Assuming all three costs the same assets to trade, who would you rather?

 

1. Dach

2. Kaako

3. Puljujarvi

 

I agree the best play is to take a chance on a kid about to break out.  Low cap but high potential.

[MP5029]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:54 PM, Thebrewcrew said:

I liked the deal at the time. But when you trade 1st's that are a year away, not protecting them is a huge mistake. The Flames were coming off a season where they were a fringe playoff team that got swept, far from a contender. BT learned from this mistake, the pick in the Toffoli deal was protected lol.

 

I don't think the Flames have the assets to get Chychrun. I think he's a good player, but I don't know that he's drastically better than Andersson/Hanifin. He's a career .42 pt/g player, buoyed by an 18 goal season last year. Slightly better than Ras and Hanifin, but not significantly. I think he's a very solid top 4 D, but for what the compensation will be, you need him to be "the guy", I'm not sure if he's the top D on a contender. Plays a different style but I think of JBouw being traded to the Flames

Agree he’s not 

[MP5029]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Assuming all three costs the same assets to trade, who would you rather?

 

1. Dach

2. Kaako

3. Puljujarvi

 

I agree the best play is to take a chance on a kid about to break out.  Low cap but high potential.

Probably:

 

Dach…

maybe Puljujarvi (probably too much)

100% no to Kaako, seems To have an attitude of Entitlement…total toxic…it’s why NYR lent him out for a year 

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Probably:

 

Dach…

maybe Puljujarvi (probably too much)

100% no to Kaako, seems To have an attitude of Entitlement…total toxic…it’s why NYR lent him out for a year 

 

I see a trend with players in NY.

Attitude problems that disappear when they go elsewhere.

Doesn't mean a lot, but at the end of the CAR/NY series, a lot of ex-teammates were patting the back of Deangelo.  Maybe it was isolated, but it didn't appear to me that the NY players hated him.  I don't want problem children like Kane, with their toxic lifestyle possibly infecting the locker room.  But a guy that may have an on-ice attitude can be broken down by the coaches.  

 

Since these are likely trades, I want to get the best talent available where we need it.  C, RW, D.  If we are thinking of using Kylington as part of any trade, then we best be getting a top 4 D to replace his minutes.  As it is, Tanev will likely miss some of the season.  The Kyl/Tanev pair maintained a +/- of 34 to 35.  They faced a lot of quality players.  Valimaki and Mackey will be basically both rookies this year.  Have to be ready to shelter them.   

[cross16]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Assuming all three costs the same assets to trade, who would you rather?

 

1. Dach

2. Kaako

3. Puljujarvi

 

I agree the best play is to take a chance on a kid about to break out.  Low cap but high potential.

 

Probably

1. Puljujarvi

2. Dach

3. Kaako

[cross16]

4 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Probably:

 

Dach…

maybe Puljujarvi (probably too much)

100% no to Kaako, seems To have an attitude of Entitlement…total toxic…it’s why NYR lent him out for a year 

 

You must be thinking of someone else because this didn't happen with Kaako. He's been a Ranger since they drafted him. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

You must be thinking of someone else because this didn't happen with Kaako. He's been a Ranger since they drafted him. 

Wasn't that Kravtsov, who got lent to KHL?

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Probably

1. Puljujarvi

2. Dach

3. Kaako

 

I think Puljujarvi has a good chance at living up to his potential under a different coach.  I expect that EDM will try to underpay him to manage their cap.  Or give him another low-ball, prove it contract.  He needs a bit of work, but the underlying numbers suggest he is capable of getting there.  

[flames for life]

31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think Puljujarvi has a good chance at living up to his potential under a different coach.  I expect that EDM will try to underpay him to manage their cap.  Or give him another low-ball, prove it contract.  He needs a bit of work, but the underlying numbers suggest he is capable of getting there.  

For me, a hard No on Puljujarvi!  I always noted he seemed complacent and lackadaisical in his effort.  Even in Edmonton, he produced little on his own, and mostly benefited off McD and Drasaidal.  In contrast, Mangie needed a passer for his shot, but stats showed that he pushed the possession and created stuff with and without the puck.

Kakko seems interesting to me, but Dach I don’t know enough of his play.

[travel_dude]

21 minutes ago, flames for life said:

For me, a hard No on Puljujarvi!  I always noted he seemed complacent and lackadaisical in his effort.  Even in Edmonton, he produced little on his own, and mostly benefited off McD and Drasaidal.  In contrast, Mangie needed a passer for his shot, but stats showed that he pushed the possession and created stuff with and without the puck.

Kakko seems interesting to me, but Dach I don’t know enough of his play.

 

I get the opinion.  If I'm EDM, I would think a trade is the best thing to do.

He doesn't fit there.  

He started off well, then tailed off to nothing.

While we had players that still got PP time when they didn't add much, he was removed.

Assuming he was capable, play him with Backlund and Mange.

Gives you a 3rd line of Coleman-Rozie-Toffoli.

Puljujarvi is not slow, so playing with two guys that transition to offense might work miracles.

 

We don't have a lot of size on the wings.

Gaudreau, Mange, Coleman, Toffoli, Dube.

Tkachuk's size is one reason why the top line does what it does.

 

Again, this is dependent on cost.  Dube would be the odd man out.

Not sure that's a good trade for us, but he would fit in their top 9.

 

[Thebrewcrew]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The problem with the offer sheet is that teams won't let a player go for a 2nd rounder.

And you are setting up for an OS coming back, should that team let the player go.

CAR got back at MTL and they didn't even lose the player.

 

With EDM, there is less likely an OS coming back, but we would have to overpay before they don't match.

4.2 is well over his value, especially iff it's longer than a couple of years.

But, do we get a player that valuable?

 

If the compensation is a 1st and 3rd, you get either player.

 

An offersheet at 4.2 is interesting though. It's a deal I think both Kakko and JP would sign and it's a number that makes it tough for their club to match, while still improving their team for 22/23.

 

Only way EDM pays JP 4.2 is if they get the cap credit from a Keith retirement. If they buy Kassian out, they have 11m to find two goalies and nine skaters.

 

NYR would be more likely to match, but they do need to replace Copp and Strome, two top 6 players. 

 

[robrob74]

Do the Flames have their own picks in order to offersheet? Would it be picks in the next draft?

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

If the compensation is a 1st and 3rd, you get either player.

 

An offersheet at 4.2 is interesting though. It's a deal I think both Kakko and JP would sign and it's a number that makes it tough for their club to match, while still improving their team for 22/23.

 

Only way EDM pays JP 4.2 is if they get the cap credit from a Keith retirement. If they buy Kassian out, they have 11m to find two goalies and nine skaters.

 

NYR would be more likely to match, but they do need to replace Copp and Strome, two top 6 players. 

 

 

The OS is so rare these days.  It helps a team sign a guy they may have trouble getting inked.

Sure, if either EDM or NY matched, they would have cap to maneuver, but every team does.

EDM wouldn't let Pooly go for just a 2nd.

They would trade him if they thought one was coming.

 

As much as I trash EDM, they can seem to figure out cap.

Might have to trade a good player.

But they are more than just a Pooly or Yammer signing away from returning to glory.

An unmatched OS makes them worse and doesn't really add cap scape.

They are also looking to sign that guy from the KHL.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Do the Flames have their own picks in order to offersheet? Would it be picks in the next draft?

 

Here's a link that shows what we can OS, as well as the other teams can do:

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/offer-sheet-calculator

[The_People1]

9 hours ago, flames for life said:

For me, a hard No on Puljujarvi!  I always noted he seemed complacent and lackadaisical in his effort.  Even in Edmonton, he produced little on his own, and mostly benefited off McD and Drasaidal.  In contrast, Mangie needed a passer for his shot, but stats showed that he pushed the possession and created stuff with and without the puck.

Kakko seems interesting to me, but Dach I don’t know enough of his play.

 

Depends on the price to get Puljujarvi.  We don't have enough players who go to the front of the net and Puljujarvi does this consistently.

 

He doesn't drive play.  He doesn't create out of this air.  He's a very good complementary piece to somebody else who does.  For example, he could look very good on RW with someone like Backlund.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Depends on the price to get Puljujarvi.  We don't have enough players who go to the front of the net and Puljujarvi does this consistently.

 

He doesn't drive play.  He doesn't create out of this air.  He's a very good complementary piece to somebody else who does.  For example, he could look very good on RW with someone like Backlund.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking we could use Coleman on the 3rd line with Rozie and Toffee.  I don't expect Coleman to score 20, but he can dig out the garbage, kick the puck in the net or rough up people on the boards.  I think we could use Pooly on the PP, since we don't have anyone to go to the net now.  Should first fire Muller, but that's just my opinion.  

[cross16]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Depends on the price to get Puljujarvi.  We don't have enough players who go to the front of the net and Puljujarvi does this consistently.

 

He doesn't drive play.  He doesn't create out of this air.  He's a very good complementary piece to somebody else who does.  For example, he could look very good on RW with someone like Backlund.

 

Guess it depends on what you mean by drive play. For me that's getting the puck going the other way and creating chances and he does that at a very high level. He doesn't convert them into high danger mind you as the chart shows below. 

 

but when he's on the ice, and you saw this in the playoffs, the Oilers are hardly defending. He's basically what Mang was the last 2 seasons. 

 

 

 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Guess it depends on what you mean by drive play. For me that's getting the puck going the other way and creating chances and he does that at a very high level. He doesn't convert them into high danger mind you as the chart shows below. 

 

but when he's on the ice, and you saw this in the playoffs, the Oilers are hardly defending. He's basically what Mang was the last 2 seasons. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed he had a good series against the Flames.  I kept waiting for him to make a mistake and he never did.  He just played sound hockey and was so effective.  And now I hope the Oilers make a mistake and don't bring him back because they are capped out.

 

Should we trade Kylington for Puljujarvi?

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Agreed he had a good series against the Flames.  I kept waiting for him to make a mistake and he never did.  He just played sound hockey and was so effective.  And now I hope the Oilers make a mistake and don't bring him back because they are capped out.

 

Should we trade Kylington for Puljujarvi?

 

They need a Tanev not a Kylington.  If they manage to convince Keith to retire, they will have money to offer Kulak.  Though I tend to think they are thinking $3M tops for him.  He sounds like he wants to go back to MTL.  

 

The tea leaves suggest that Pooly is not a big priority for them and Holland sounds like he's not sure he keeps him.  

 

The Oilers seem to have trouble identifying pro talent in trades.  They make good high end FA signings.  Hyman, Kane, etc., but have gone after Turris, Scevior, Shore.  Previous trades are even worse.  Not all were on the GM.

 

Getting back to a trade with the Oilers.  There have been so few between the teams.  I'm thinking the only way it happens is a 3-way trade, but I doubt BT can get that done.  You have to either have an extra pick to make it work or you send a decent value to a team and they send a cheap player to the Oilers.  Like Dube to NY and Kravtsov to the Oilers. 

[LouCifer]

Someone reported on Twitter that Duncan Keith is planning on not only playing this year, but he's hoping to also play BEYOND this year. 

[tmac70]

Not to sure why everyone wants Puljujarvi his biggest talent is he cleans his nose with his tounge. If this kid was not a standout with the two they have he isn't going to make it. IMHO I would not a guy like Valeri Nichshkin be a better fit. Guy has been playing well. Big skates smart with the puck can win corner battles has 52 points in Regular season, 14 points in the playoffs. Be a great fit on  a second line RW. What we need is some size speed on the wings which was missing in the playoffs. IMHO this is a better fit than the fool up north. As seen in the graph above, stay with what you know and not gamble on what may become. Mags and Nichushkin have proven they can. If your going to trade a pick use it to move a contract out IE Lucic, Monhan, 

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, LouCifer said:

Someone reported on Twitter that Duncan Keith is planning on not only playing this year, but he's hoping to also play BEYOND this year. 

That would screw over the Oilers and would lose out on over $8M in free cap.  I don't understand how, but they get $3M from the Hawks in cap space if he did.  But a player need not retire when they went out of their way to get the player.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Not to sure why everyone wants Puljujarvi his biggest talent is he cleans his nose with his tounge. If this kid was not a standout with the two they have he isn't going to make it. IMHO I would not a guy like Valeri Nichshkin be a better fit. Guy has been playing well. Big skates smart with the puck can win corner battles has 52 points in Regular season, 14 points in the playoffs. Be a great fit on  a second line RW. What we need is some size speed on the wings which was missing in the playoffs. IMHO this is a better fit than the fool up north. 

 

I had wanted to sign him after Dallas bought him out.  But, he is a very valuable player to COL.  And they likely prioritize re-signing him before he goes UFA.  He's gonna get 5 probably.  Pooly, on the other hand, will get less than 3.  Make no mistake, you are buying Pooly at a low instead of overpaying a UFA after a career year.  

[flames for life]

37 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

Not to sure why everyone wants Puljujarvi his biggest talent is he cleans his nose with his tounge. If this kid was not a standout with the two they have he isn't going to make it. IMHO I would not a guy like Valeri Nichshkin be a better fit. Guy has been playing well. Big skates smart with the puck can win corner battles has 52 points in Regular season, 14 points in the playoffs. Be a great fit on  a second line RW. What we need is some size speed on the wings which was missing in the playoffs. IMHO this is a better fit than the fool up north. As seen in the graph above, stay with what you know and not gamble on what may become. Mags and Nichushkin have proven they can. If your going to trade a pick use it to move a contract out IE Lucic, Monhan, 

Totally agree, but thank you for the visual I didn’t need with poolparty’s nose cleaning practice!  Targeting Nichushkin make more logical sense, and feels less like a gamble. Mangie would benefit well with that kind of playmaker.  My only concern would be what we would have to sacrifice to get him.  I’m never a biG fan of simply saying we give 3 players (in variation) for this one.

 I agree with the notion that Dube May end as odd man out, which would sadden me, as I don’t think he has had his breakthrough period yet, and what we see is only scratching the surface.  To me Monohan would be my start to the offer.