Flames Lineup - Suggested Lines

[travel_dude]

39 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I do like Carpenter but I don't think i'm taking Monahan out of the lineup for him. Monahan isn't playing poorly and I do get the "better fit for a 4th line argument" but I'm not there. Keep Monahan in there, give the line some pop and use him on the PP. 

 

work Carpenter in from time to time, see if he fits on the PK and use him more for depth and injuries than rush him in there. How I would do it anyway. 

 

He either replaces Lewis or Dube, depending on what Sutter wants. BT seems to feel he plays the way the Flames play, so there may have been some discussion with Sutter.  At the very least, we have another option to use in the PK.

[The_People1]

10 hours ago, cross16 said:

I do like Carpenter but I don't think i'm taking Monahan out of the lineup for him. Monahan isn't playing poorly and I do get the "better fit for a 4th line argument" but I'm not there. Keep Monahan in there, give the line some pop and use him on the PP. 

 

work Carpenter in from time to time, see if he fits on the PK and use him more for depth and injuries than rush him in there. How I would do it anyway. 

 

Ya same.  However, give the new guy a few games to see what he's got.  He's a 4th C so play him there.   At least he gets Lindholm away from the PK.

 

[conundrumed]

I'm kinda guessing Carpenter plays watch and learn for a couple of games.

If he's more than Richardson, bonus. If not, he's a 13th fwd. No harm, no foul.

I'm done trying to draw up lines.lol

We have so many options and looks now my opinion is pointless.lol I'm just happy Sutter is more than willing to use so many different looks. We are going to be painful to match when we can constantly move players around. Shutdown JG-Lindy-Chucky for half a game? Change the lines.

Mangia-Lindy-Dube

JG-Mony-Coleman

Jarnkrok-Backs-Tkachuk

Now what? Teams will be chasing our matchups around. Widespread confusion.

Have we ever had depth like this?

[robrob74]

10 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I'm kinda guessing Carpenter plays watch and learn for a couple of games.

If he's more than Richardson, bonus. If not, he's a 13th fwd. No harm, no foul.

I'm done trying to draw up lines.lol

We have so many options and looks now my opinion is pointless.lol I'm just happy Sutter is more than willing to use so many different looks. We are going to be painful to match when we can constantly move players around. Shutdown JG-Lindy-Chucky for half a game? Change the lines.

Mangia-Lindy-Dube

JG-Mony-Coleman

Jarnkrok-Backs-Tkachuk

Now what? Teams will be chasing our matchups around. Widespread confusion.

Have we ever had depth like this?

i agree it’s great he is willing to try new lines. We used to cement Monahan and Gaudreau, & Tkachuk to Backlund, that it made us stuck.

 

plus I don’t think previous coaches would make in game adjustments to the way teams played us. And I don’t mean just lines, but the way the previous teams did things and responded.

[cross16]

Don't really have a problem with trying different lines. I'm not really a fan of many of them but I do get the idea of trying things out at this point in the year. 

 

I do think the Flames need to have conversations around Kylington though. I haven't liked his game for a couple months now but these last few weeks it's really going off the rails. He's playing way too fast, throwing pucks away, can't get shots off, and really chasing the game. There isn't much they can do about it now but if they can get enough cap space by the end of the year I really think they need to consider using Valimaki in that spot. 

[JTech780]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Don't really have a problem with trying different lines. I'm not really a fan of many of them but I do get the idea of trying things out at this point in the year. 

 

I do think the Flames need to have conversations around Kylington though. I haven't liked his game for a couple months now but these last few weeks it's really going off the rails. He's playing way too fast, throwing pucks away, can't get shots off, and really chasing the game. There isn't much they can do about it now but if they can get enough cap space by the end of the year I really think they need to consider using Valimaki in that spot. 

 

I agree, at the very least I think they need to find a way to get Valimaki or Mackey into a few games so that they know what they have.

 

Kylington and Zadorov both scare me come playoff time where mistakes are magnified. Both are way to prone to mistakes, and it could really bite us in an important game.

 

Really if they just both made the simple play, they would be absolutely fine, but its when they try to do too much, it seems to blow up in their face.

[travel_dude]

38 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I do think the Flames need to have conversations around Kylington though. I haven't liked his game for a couple months now but these last few weeks it's really going off the rails. He's playing way too fast, throwing pucks away, can't get shots off, and really chasing the game. There isn't much they can do about it now but if they can get enough cap space by the end of the year I really think they need to consider using Valimaki in that spot. 

 

It's a tough call.  Kylington earned the trust of the coach and Valimaki didn't.  I'm sure Sutter is seeing the same things as you, but doesn't have the luxury of disrupting a pairing to bring in Valimaki for a tryout.  I agree that he is making decision too quickly and not reading the ice the right way.  When he slows the game down he is more effective.  Not looking for shooting lanes and just blasting the shot.  East-West movements in traffic.  Puck watching maybe a bit much and losing an assignment.

 

Unfortunately, the alternative is using Valimaki in that situation.  You could probably move Kylington to play with Guddy, and the impact to the 3rd pair would be positive.  But, I'm not sure you see an improvement in the 2nd pair.  We can speculate, but the reality is Valimaki hasn't played top minutes here for most of the season.  

[cross16]

Flames also don't have the option of using Valimaki as they don't have the cap space to bring him up

 

I'm not advocating an immediate move (they don't have an option really) It's just something that needs to be monitored and when cap space is available I think the Flames have a decision to make. 

[travel_dude]

43 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Flames also don't have the option of using Valimaki as they don't have the cap space to bring him up

 

I'm not advocating an immediate move (they don't have an option really) It's just something that needs to be monitored and when cap space is available I think the Flames have a decision to make. 

 

I get that, which is what I meant by the luxury.  in terms of roster, cap and runway to get him up to speed.  When they do have the space, it would be even harder.  I think they almost need to sit him for a game and watch from overhead.  Work with the coaches on the finer points.  If he looked good during the season at all, then he can play like that.  Just get back to doing the things that worked.      

[travel_dude]

One thing I will mention is that Lucic has been brutal recently.  The late line change.  Giveaways.  Last night they credited him with just one giveaway, but I think he had two on one shift, let alone the entire game.  His an Monahan's TOI down to the lowest of the team.  No special teams time for either.  There wasn't a lot of special teams play as it was, but the TOI really stuck out.  

 

Not sure how we bring in Carpenter.  Somebody would need to sit.  Perhaps Lewis or Lucic.  Maybe Monahan really should.  Tough to do with a team leader, but in a B2B coming up, we can't have tired players.  We saw that in COL.  

[flames for life]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Don't really have a problem with trying different lines. I'm not really a fan of many of them but I do get the idea of trying things out at this point in the year. 

 

I do think the Flames need to have conversations around Kylington though. I haven't liked his game for a couple months now but these last few weeks it's really going off the rails. He's playing way too fast, throwing pucks away, can't get shots off, and really chasing the game. There isn't much they can do about it now but if they can get enough cap space by the end of the year I really think they need to consider using Valimaki in that spot. 

I have more confidence in Kylington then I do right now with Monaham or Lucic.  Two goals last night were direct results from poor passes by them.  The complaint that Kylington makes to many east/west passes better extend to the whole team!  Last night was the blueprint for “too many passes” before shooting.  Good advance scouting showed the flaws of predictability in our game plan.  How many times did a pass get intercepted or deflected?  I don’t think Kylington was better or worse then anyone else other than the two I mentioned.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, flames for life said:

I have more confidence in Kylington then I do right now with Monaham or Lucic.  Two goals last night were direct results from poor passes by them.  The complaint that Kylington makes to many east/west passes better extend to the whole team!  Last night was the blueprint for “too many passes” before shooting.  Good advance scouting showed the flaws of predictability in our game plan.  How many times did a pass get intercepted or deflected?  I don’t think Kylington was better or worse then anyone else other than the two I mentioned.

yup! 
 

and if I’m the D zone, were  the other players on the team in positions to get a good breakout pass? I don’t remember exact plays but the D-zone coverage was bad overall and it does make some look worse than others. I think Kylington is playing better than when he took a few games off.

 

and to me, I was impressed by how the Flames started but it seems like once they went to 3-1 they took the rest of the game off, and looked a lot like the Buffalo game.
 

Those are two games with non-playoff teams, so do they get  move on because of that? Or is it a trend in their game that’s creeping in? Historically this core had a habit of playing the way they did last night prior to this season, but this season has been different. So a part of me has reason for concern but I have to keep telling myself it is different. 
 

that was a whole team loss last night. Dube stood out for a bit though.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

yup! 
 

and if I’m the D zone, were  the other players on the team in positions to get a good breakout pass? I don’t remember exact plays but the D-zone coverage was bad overall and it does make some look worse than others. I think Kylington is playing better than when he took a few games off.

 

and to me, I was impressed by how the Flames started but it seems like once they went to 3-1 they took the rest of the game off, and looked a lot like the Buffalo game.
 

Those are two games with non-playoff teams, so do they get  move on because of that? Or is it a trend in their game that’s creeping in? Historically this core had a habit of playing the way they did last night prior to this season, but this season has been different. So a part of me has reason for concern but I have to keep telling myself it is different. 
 

that was a whole team loss last night. Dube stood out for a bit though.

 

First the bolded.  The team is nothing what the previous teams were.  Not even close.  So the last part is correct.  

 

Really, I don't think it was 30 minutes of good then 30 of bad.  I think it was one of those game where momentum shifted at time.  We dominated.  They get a lucky bounce.  We go up again by 2.  They get a lucky goal.  They start smelling blood (pun) and we get trapped after a poor line change.  Tie game.  A poor pass and they go up.  Not a lot of time left, but we apply pressure and almost tie it.

 

The most noticeable thing for me was the number of missed net shots by the Flames.  I mean besides the obvious bad game by Marky.  Yes, a number of poor giveaways, and a lot if the D-zone time was due to weak attempts to get out.  Watched one sequence (seen the same thing many times) where the puck passed up the boards to Lucic.  He turns it over to a Shark.  Or the shift leading to the 3rd goal.  

[flames for life]

35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

First the bolded.  The team is nothing what the previous teams were.  Not even close.  So the last part is correct.  

 

Really, I don't think it was 30 minutes of good then 30 of bad.  I think it was one of those game where momentum shifted at time.  We dominated.  They get a lucky bounce.  We go up again by 2.  They get a lucky goal.  They start smelling blood (pun) and we get trapped after a poor line change.  Tie game.  A poor pass and they go up.  Not a lot of time left, but we apply pressure and almost tie it.

 

The most noticeable thing for me was the number of missed net shots by the Flames.  I mean besides the obvious bad game by Marky.  Yes, a number of poor giveaways, and a lot if the D-zone time was due to weak attempts to get out.  Watched one sequence (seen the same thing many times) where the puck passed up the boards to Lucic.  He turns it over to a Shark.  Or the shift leading to the 3rd goal.  

Yup, saw it numerous times from Lucic.  Worse is the “behind the back pass” into the centre ice trying to connect without looking.  Fails every time, but he keeps doing it.  What I did like last night at the beginning of the game was how the forwards were aware of Shark pressure, and to neutralize it simply passed back to the defence to restart the rush.  While it slowed the play; we controlled the play.  Sharks took over when we lost focus of that.

[The_People1]

Lucic needs load management.  Same with Lewis.  They can't play 15-minutes a night and be 100% effective.  We need to be prepared to deploy some kind of Carpenter - Ritchie combo as relief while Lucic and Lewis take a game or two off down the stretch.

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, flames for life said:

Yup, saw it numerous times from Lucic.  Worse is the “behind the back pass” into the centre ice trying to connect without looking.  Fails every time, but he keeps doing it.  What I did like last night at the beginning of the game was how the forwards were aware of Shark pressure, and to neutralize it simply passed back to the defence to restart the rush.  While it slowed the play; we controlled the play.  Sharks took over when we lost focus of that.

i was saying how much I liked their structure as a team that first period and everything seemed bad after that. 
 

See! I can’t say any fricking good things about this team! Every time I do…. This happens. 

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, robrob74 said:

i was saying how much I liked their structure as a team that first period and everything seemed bad after that. 
 

See! I can’t say any fricking good things about this team! Every time I do…. This happens. 

 

We got spoiled with the February run.  It opened a lot of eyes to the team's success and dominance in games.  We all fall into the trap of getting excited.  Nothing wrong with that, as this team is the most exciting (and boring at times) team we have had to cheer in so many years.  Just remain wher you are.  A game of inches is sometimes going to go the other way.  Frustrating to watch if something bad happens and we lose a game like that.  But we need it to reinforce the opinions of the coaches.  This is what happens when you let up a bit.  

 

Don't get me wrong.  I think they played well.  Some things I didn't like.  Maybe the entire team let up a bit, or a bad combo of little things.  Any one of them fixed mid game and we get a win.  But that's not the best thing, since the bad things crept in, in the first place.  Better to work as if everything went wrong and need work.  In other years, we have been okay with a win becuase we won.  Poor habits and we still won.  Outscored the  mistakes.  I like scoring goals, but would rather we dominate and get a 2-0 SO than dominate and win 5-4.  

[tmac70]

I watched a team who when they palyed to their idenity took over the game. When they were up 3-1 they tried to play pond hockey. Sharks did what we need more of just fire everything at the net, greasy goals. Far to often they try to pass it into the net. For me this clubs only issue is when they get away from there structure, this IMHO is what Sutter keeps harping about. They do than convert back to the style of Peters/Ward long passes turnovvers in the Neutral zone, guy flying the zone with out possesion and get above the opposiition. I would try Carpenter- Monahan- Ritchie, at least there is speed on both wings. I like Lewis I do but if Carpenter is a PK he coukld fill that role. Lucic it appears the game has just gotten to fast for him. Watching him trying to move the puck out is painful, he is so slow. Monahan needs guys that can skate and get on the forcheck, that isn't Lucic anymore. At least with Carpenter- Monahan- RItchie or even Lewis at least they can sakte and create more pressure suitable to our style. The decision to sit Looch is or would be a tough call, but he isn't creating turnovers, isn't using his intimidation, and can't play fast. IMHO he would be my choice to pull out. WIll Sutter have the balls to yank him for a game, than bring him in for the Coiler game. A mad or motivated Lucic would be bettter than what we have now. 

[travel_dude]

27 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

I watched a team who when they palyed to their idenity took over the game. When they were up 3-1 they tried to play pond hockey. Sharks did what we need more of just fire everything at the net, greasy goals. Far to often they try to pass it into the net. For me this clubs only issue is when they get away from there structure, this IMHO is what Sutter keeps harping about. They do than convert back to the style of Peters/Ward long passes turnovvers in the Neutral zone, guy flying the zone with out possesion and get above the opposiition. I would try Carpenter- Monahan- Ritchie, at least there is speed on both wings. I like Lewis I do but if Carpenter is a PK he coukld fill that role. Lucic it appears the game has just gotten to fast for him. Watching him trying to move the puck out is painful, he is so slow. Monahan needs guys that can skate and get on the forcheck, that isn't Lucic anymore. At least with Carpenter- Monahan- RItchie or even Lewis at least they can sakte and create more pressure suitable to our style. The decision to sit Looch is or would be a tough call, but he isn't creating turnovers, isn't using his intimidation, and can't play fast. IMHO he would be my choice to pull out. WIll Sutter have the balls to yank him for a game, than bring him in for the Coiler game. A mad or motivated Lucic would be bettter than what we have now. 

 

Lucic is good in parts of his game and bad in other parts.  He's a good forechecker.  He can cause the other team to rush passes.  Where he struggles the most, it seems, is defensive structure and neutral zone play.  If we are using him to advance the puck, then that is a mistake.  He's about 50/50 on that.  Will make a good play and follow it up with a bad one.  Sutter needs to watch very closely.  A B2B set is not a great thing to play him in.  Probably gassed in COL.  Didn't look to bad against BUFF, but we lost a close game.

 

You can see how Sutter is using him less these days.  4th line minutes cut if they are getting hemmed in.  No PP time for him or Monahan.  But, I think sitting for one game doesn't hurt him.  He loves the BOA games.  He's there in case Kassian runs a player.  Can't always send in Guddy to tune a player up, since we need him for PK and 5v5.  But Sutter needs to look at where Lucic struggles.  Game type 1.  Plays well in game type 2.  Plays okay but needs less minutes in game type 3.  We  have depth for a reason.  You can't play a niche player in 82 games if he's ineffective in 30 of them.  Will need him for the playoffs when games have more edge.         

[cross16]

19 hours ago, flames for life said:

I have more confidence in Kylington then I do right now with Monaham or Lucic.  Two goals last night were direct results from poor passes by them.  The complaint that Kylington makes to many east/west passes better extend to the whole team!  Last night was the blueprint for “too many passes” before shooting.  Good advance scouting showed the flaws of predictability in our game plan.  How many times did a pass get intercepted or deflected?  I don’t think Kylington was better or worse then anyone else other than the two I mentioned.

 

The impact of one of your top 4 dman is significantly greater than 2 4th liners. 

 

I wouldn't disagree that both of those players are struggling right now but I think the level of concern there is much lower than it is with Kylington due to the role he plays and what the Flames need of him. 

[JTech780]

Personally I think Monahan has to sit, he just isn't the same player right now, and him and Lucic just don't fit together on the same line. Put Carpenter out there with Lucic and Lewis and let them go out there and be an old school bang and crash line and create some energy.

 

At least Carpenter can play on our special teams. Monahan isn't able to do that anymore.

 

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Personally I think Monahan has to sit, he just isn't the same player right now, and him and Lucic just don't fit together on the same line. Put Carpenter out there with Lucic and Lewis and let them go out there and be an old school bang and crash line and create some energy.

 

At least Carpenter can play on our special teams. Monahan isn't able to do that anymore.

 

 

Dressing rooms can be pretty fragile.  Since he's not sat out a game all season, there may be some underlying reasons why.  Sutter isn't afraid to bench a guy that is not playing the right way, but two vets that have had strings of bad games continue to dress every game.  Both are part of the leadership group.  

 

It's a tough call for me.  We might be better off with Ruzie in the lineup and Carpenter/Lewis out there.  Not sure how either of those guys play on the off-wing, but it would be a faster line that could put the puck in the net more often.  Adding in Ruzie gives us some decent options.  Jarnkrok has been pretty good defensively, but he is not exactly helping Mange score.  

 

For most games, I could see the use as follows:

Top line

Coleman-Backlund-Jarnkrok

Mangiapane-Ruzie-Toffoli

Carpenter/Lucic-Monahan-Dube/Lewis/Carpenter

 

Switch it up for some:

Johnny-Lindholm-Toffoli

Tkachuk-Backlund-Coleman

Mangiapane-Ruzie-Jarnkrok

Carpenter/Lucic-Monahan-Dube/Lewis/Carpenter

 

I'm probably over-reaching here.  Most likely we don't see Ruzie until next season.  I don't think his play got him sent down, it was a numbers game.  Dube has picked up his game recently.  Carpenter is a special teams option.  Sutter would probably prefer to be able to us Ruzie in the lineup to help the 3rd line, but it doesn't work with the extras we have and Monahan/Lucic playing.  I'm not even sure Ritchie gets games unless Lucic or Lewis comes out.    

[JTech780]

25 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Dressing rooms can be pretty fragile.  Since he's not sat out a game all season, there may be some underlying reasons why.  Sutter isn't afraid to bench a guy that is not playing the right way, but two vets that have had strings of bad games continue to dress every game.  Both are part of the leadership group.  

 

It's a tough call for me.  We might be better off with Ruzie in the lineup and Carpenter/Lewis out there.  Not sure how either of those guys play on the off-wing, but it would be a faster line that could put the puck in the net more often.  Adding in Ruzie gives us some decent options.  Jarnkrok has been pretty good defensively, but he is not exactly helping Mange score.  

 

For most games, I could see the use as follows:

Top line

Coleman-Backlund-Jarnkrok

Mangiapane-Ruzie-Toffoli

Carpenter/Lucic-Monahan-Dube/Lewis/Carpenter

 

Switch it up for some:

Johnny-Lindholm-Toffoli

Tkachuk-Backlund-Coleman

Mangiapane-Ruzie-Jarnkrok

Carpenter/Lucic-Monahan-Dube/Lewis/Carpenter

 

I'm probably over-reaching here.  Most likely we don't see Ruzie until next season.  I don't think his play got him sent down, it was a numbers game.  Dube has picked up his game recently.  Carpenter is a special teams option.  Sutter would probably prefer to be able to us Ruzie in the lineup to help the 3rd line, but it doesn't work with the extras we have and Monahan/Lucic playing.  I'm not even sure Ritchie gets games unless Lucic or Lewis comes out.    

The players on the roster are the players we have till the playoffs, I could be wrong but I don't think there is cap space to call up a player from the AHL.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

The players on the roster are the players we have till the playoffs, I could be wrong but I don't think there is cap space to call up a player from the AHL.

 

Not say this is true, but can we not waive Ritchie or Stone and bring in Ruzie?  I get they can't be assigned to the AHL, but I think it takes them off the roster and removes their cap hit.  

 

If not, the only way is an emergency loan.  I'm hoping we don't get there.

[pikey7883]

Dube playing up with Backs and Chucky at the start of last game in my opinion looked really good last game. I would like to see them go back to that for another game. 
I think part of the problem we’re seeing right now is that we have 3 guys (in the middle 6) who have a shoot first mentality in Mang, Money, and now Calle. Maybe we just put them all together, lol. Calle and Money can share the responsibilities of center. 

Try Coleman - Carpenter - Lewis on the “4th line” for a game, or substitute Ritchie for Lewis to give him and Looch a break.