Jacob Markstrom

[The_People1]

What hurts the most is based on the season opener with the Jets is that if the Jets had Laine and Scheifele healthy the entire series, the Flames wouldn't lost and drafted Askarov.

[robrob74]

Just now, The_People1 said:

What hurts the most is based on the season opener with the Jets is that if the Jets had Laine and Scheifele healthy the entire series, the Flames would've lost and drafted Askarov.

 

 

I edited it for you!

Would Askarov been the way to go though? 

I guess that Wolf is still up in the air. 

Askarov being a probable true #1 is probably the right move. 

 

But is there a difference maker in that slot of the draft that could be a first line forward/C or first pair D in the long run? 

 

I think we still lack the proper fit for Monahan and Gaudreau, and now lack a top liner for Tkachuk and Lindholm. Dube is awesome for what he is, but is he a first liner (yet)? Maybe he gets there. He made a nice play last night.

[jjgallow]

20 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yeah but he was .880 vs both Canada and the US so, that's not just one game that's two, one of them being the first game the other an elimination.  Yet being .882 (which is better than .880 wow) in the first game after the 2nd 4 month break in the past year, on a new team with a short camp and no preseason is an indication that you are no good.

 

Well Markstrom's entire NHL history as a starter is also a pretty good indication, and he's no spring chicken so there's a lot of data to confirm that.

 

You're right, it's just one game, just like All the other games of his extensive NHL career where he really never got anywhere or managed to stop a notable percentage of pucks ever.  

 

But hey, maybe Markstrom has waited until next game to start improving now that he's into his 30's.      And maybe Askarov has peaked as an 18 year old since he let in an extra goal against Canada and the US as an 18 year old.    It's possible right?

 

The fact that you have to compare Markstrom to an 18 year old goalie does not bode well for Markstrom.     And quite frankly will be an insult to that 18 year old goalie in a very short amount of time.

 

20 minutes ago, sak22 said:

  But by game one performances being the indicator rejoice knowing that John Gibson, Ilya Samsonov, Igor Shesterkin, Frederik Andersen, Carey Price, Tristan Jarry, and Phllippe Grubauer are all equal or worse because they all gave up 4 or more as well.

 

You know what else all these goalies have in common with Marksrom?

 

Nothing.   They all have exceptional track records.  And he doesn't.

[jjgallow]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Askarov being a probable true #1 is probably the right move. 

 

I think so.

 

Quote

But is there a difference maker in that slot of the draft that could be a first line forward/C or first pair D in the long run? 

 

Not if they're not backed by a solid goalie, there isn't no.   Nobody's ever had a remarkable NHL career (in my books) without being backed by a remarkable goalie.  

 

And goalies take the longest to develop.   So... unless this whole "let's overpay for a 30 something average goalie" system we have all of a sudden starts working even though it's never worked, you need to stock up on your goalie prospects if you want anyone else to have a hope in the future imho.

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I think so.

 

 

Not if they're not backed by a solid goalie, there isn't no.   Nobody's ever had a remarkable NHL career (in my books) without being backed by a remarkable goalie.  

 

And goalies take the longest to develop.   So... unless this whole "let's overpay for a 30 something average goalie" system we have all of a sudden starts working even though it's never worked, you need to stock up on your goalie prospects if you want anyone else to have a hope in the future imho.

 

 

I think the bigger problem is, there aren't 32 starters in the league. There are more who start games, but true #1 goalies, there aren't that many anymore. Either the game has gotten too wide open and it has shown a lot of goaltender's flaws, or it's harder to develop them these days. For whatever reason, from the 10th ranked goalie numbers-wise, there are a lot of average goalies. 

 

Unless the Flames draft Carey Price, they're not getting Carey Price. Markstrom's numbers are horrible because he's been on horrible hockey teams. In some stats metrics he did not give up a bad goal at all last year. He has made a save on every save-able shot. They say every goalie lets in a bad goal, but last year, Markstrom did not. 

 

If he is a first and second save goalie, then to me, to me that's all you need. Rebound control plays into a goalies game, but to me, if a goalie can make every first save, they D has a responsibility to take away rebounds. 

 

I think you're just a tad too harsh on the goalies front. I mean, I get it, as I am pissed at throwing so many assets at trying to fix the problem. We've given up way too much without a fix. I am glad for once that BT didn't use an asset to acquire Markstrom. Right now, he's better than what was available, and probably including Talbot. Were his numbers good? no. But you gotta look deeper into what team he was on. My bet if he was able to stay in Vancouver that they'd win the division this year with their upgraded D. 

 

Me, I might have stuck with Talbot on a 2-3 year deal. Out of all that was available to the team now, it was either Talbot or Markstrom. I am glad we got one or the other. I am tired of wasting assets on goalies that don't pan out.

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think the bigger problem is, there aren't 32 starters in the league. There are more who start games, but true #1 goalies, there aren't that many anymore. Either the game has gotten too wide open and it has shown a lot of goaltender's flaws, or it's harder to develop them these days. For whatever reason, from the 10th ranked goalie numbers-wise, there are a lot of average goalies. 

 

Unless the Flames draft Carey Price, they're not getting Carey Price. Markstrom's numbers are horrible because he's been on horrible hockey teams. In some stats metrics he did not give up a bad goal at all last year. He has made a save on every save-able shot. They say every goalie lets in a bad goal, but last year, Markstrom did not. 

 

If he is a first and second save goalie, then to me, to me that's all you need. Rebound control plays into a goalies game, but to me, if a goalie can make every first save, they D has a responsibility to take away rebounds. 

 

I think you're just a tad too harsh on the goalies front. I mean, I get it, as I am pissed at throwing so many assets at trying to fix the problem. We've given up way too much without a fix. I am glad for once that BT didn't use an asset to acquire Markstrom. Right now, he's better than what was available, and probably including Talbot. Were his numbers good? no. But you gotta look deeper into what team he was on. My bet if he was able to stay in Vancouver that they'd win the division this year with their upgraded D. 

 

Me, I might have stuck with Talbot on a 2-3 year deal. Out of all that was available to the team now, it was either Talbot or Markstrom. I am glad we got one or the other. I am tired of wasting assets on goalies that don't pan out.

 

Talbot at 33, going on 34....

Markstrom a "young" 30 who hasn't had as much wear and tear.

I agree that he could have been better with a better team in front, the same way Talbot was pretty good last year.

Overall, I think Markstrom is a better goalie by a wide margin.

Talbot had tendencies for 1st shot goals.

And he really play that much.

 

SHort of giving up assets for a good young goalie (how many are really out there), drafting or UFA is the only realistic way to go.

We drafted two guys that could be starters, but I think it's closer to just one.

3 years out, and we drafted him over a year ago.

 

I give Markstrom about 4 good years.

That is the least, IMHO.

He may not be elite, but I haven;t seen any that I would describe as elite right now.

Any that seem close are over 30.

Most play on good defensive teams.

 

[robrob74]

38 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Talbot at 33, going on 34....

Markstrom a "young" 30 who hasn't had as much wear and tear.

I agree that he could have been better with a better team in front, the same way Talbot was pretty good last year.

Overall, I think Markstrom is a better goalie by a wide margin.

Talbot had tendencies for 1st shot goals.

And he really play that much.

 

SHort of giving up assets for a good young goalie (how many are really out there), drafting or UFA is the only realistic way to go.

We drafted two guys that could be starters, but I think it's closer to just one.

3 years out, and we drafted him over a year ago.

 

I give Markstrom about 4 good years.

That is the least, IMHO.

He may not be elite, but I haven;t seen any that I would describe as elite right now.

Any that seem close are over 30.

Most play on good defensive teams.

 

 

 

And that's just it, exactly what I am trying to say. Markstrom didn't let in bad goals, but did let in goals. Every goalie is going to. It's best if they can save the first one. You're right, Rittich and Talbot didn't do that on occasion. Some were stinky goals. 

 

But you're just not getting them unless they get to free agency or drafting. 

 

There was no plan for after Kipper, or even before him for that matter. Kidd was rushed, then we didn't keep Giguere, and then had a few place holders before and after we lucked out on Kipper. It is just much the same for us. I don't know if the team is putting enough resources into scouting goaltenders. There are some teams that have been decent at it. Is it luck, is it scouting, or is it developing? But there just isn't much of them out there either.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well Markstrom's entire NHL history as a starter is also a pretty good indication, and he's no spring chicken so there's a lot of data to confirm that.

 

You're right, it's just one game, just like All the other games of his extensive NHL career where he really never got anywhere or managed to stop a notable percentage of pucks ever.  

 

But hey, maybe Markstrom has waited until next game to start improving now that he's into his 30's.      And maybe Askarov has peaked as an 18 year old since he let in an extra goal against Canada and the US as an 18 year old.    It's possible right?

 

The fact that you have to compare Markstrom to an 18 year old goalie does not bode well for Markstrom.     And quite frankly will be an insult to that 18 year old goalie in a very short amount of time.

 

 

You know what else all these goalies have in common with Marksrom?

 

Nothing.   They all have exceptional track records.  And he doesn't.

I wasn't really comparing, just throwing out how you jump on one game where the team didn't play 2 periods, or the fact he's only had a save percentage over .910 for the last 5 years on a rebuilding team with no defense, as all the proof you need that Markstrom sucks.  I just pointed out that the first time I saw a full game from Askarov I wasn't blown away, I'm sure he will be a good goalie but I'm going off the jjgallow stats are the only indicator analogy.  But since you keep pointing out age, how did 18 year old Jacob Markstrom do in that tournament.

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think the bigger problem is, there aren't 32 starters in the league. There are more who start games, but true #1 goalies, there aren't that many anymore. Either the game has gotten too wide open and it has shown a lot of goaltender's flaws, or it's harder to develop them these days. For whatever reason, from the 10th ranked goalie numbers-wise, there are a lot of average goalies. 

 

I completely, completely agree.   The NHL and players union did this to themselves with the equipment rules, forcing out smaller better goalies with quicker reflexes in favour of crazy tall goalies who can cover more of the net just by standing there.    Markstrom, no personal offense to him, would be an AHL goaltender under the old rules.

 

Vernon, even Kipper, would be AHL/Europe goalies under these new rules, or at best lower tier NHL backups.   There skills were off the charts, they are "true" goalies in a sense, and the NHL neutralized them.

 

The line is That fine.

 

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Unless the Flames draft Carey Price, they're not getting Carey Price. Markstrom's numbers are horrible because he's been on horrible hockey teams. In some stats metrics he did not give up a bad goal at all last year. He has made a save on every save-able shot. They say every goalie lets in a bad goal, but last year, Markstrom did not. 

 

Not so sure about this lol.   I'm doubting one in 10 shots were good goals.

 

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

If he is a first and second save goalie, then to me, to me that's all you need. Rebound control plays into a goalies game, but to me, if a goalie can make every first save, they D has a responsibility to take away rebounds. 

 

I think you're just a tad too harsh on the goalies front. I mean, I get it, as I am pissed at throwing so many assets at trying to fix the problem. We've given up way too much without a fix. I am glad for once that BT didn't use an asset to acquire Markstrom. Right now, he's better than what was available, and probably including Talbot. Were his numbers good? no. But you gotta look deeper into what team he was on. My bet if he was able to stay in Vancouver that they'd win the division this year with their upgraded D. 

 

Perhaps I am harsh, but I think we're going to see things very differently by the end of this year with regards to Vancouver and Markstrom.    Great goalies should be able to have good save percentages on any team and I'm not sure Markstrom had it as bad as we think.    If anything he benefited from biased evaluation.

 

In terms of resources, I am glad they didn't use a pick or prospect but that money could have been used for actual defense, and actual winger, or  an actual 4th line (that would be my order of preference).    I'm actually ok with spending resources on goalies if they're prospects with a future.  Flames could have put a good young goalie in net this year with a trade/draft, like all years they chose not to "risk it" and play it "safe", which means mediocre with no future.

 

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Me, I might have stuck with Talbot on a 2-3 year deal. Out of all that was available to the team now, it was either Talbot or Markstrom. I am glad we got one or the other. I am tired of wasting assets on goalies that don't pan out.

 

Talbot has always been the better goalie, and far far cheaper.    I would have been ok with acquiring a younger goalie but if not that, yeah Talbot has always been better.

[jjgallow]

53 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I wasn't really comparing, just throwing out how you jump on one game where the team didn't play 2 periods, or the fact he's only had a save percentage over .910 for the last 5 years on a rebuilding team with no defense, as all the proof you need that Markstrom sucks.  I just pointed out that the first time I saw a full game from Askarov I wasn't blown away, I'm sure he will be a good goalie but I'm going off the jjgallow stats are the only indicator analogy.  But since you keep pointing out age, how did 18 year old Jacob Markstrom do in that tournament.

 

 

I actually didn't know that lol....   good point                              (all I can say in my defense is he was 19 3 weeks later)

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Talbot at 33, going on 34....

Markstrom a "young" 30 who hasn't had as much wear and tear.

I agree that he could have been better with a better team in front, the same way Talbot was pretty good last year.

Overall, I think Markstrom is a better goalie by a wide margin.

Talbot had tendencies for 1st shot goals.

And he really play that much.

 

SHort of giving up assets for a good young goalie (how many are really out there), drafting or UFA is the only realistic way to go.

We drafted two guys that could be starters, but I think it's closer to just one.

3 years out, and we drafted him over a year ago.

 

I give Markstrom about 4 good years.

That is the least, IMHO.

He may not be elite, but I haven;t seen any that I would describe as elite right now.

Any that seem close are over 30.

Most play on good defensive teams.

 

 

yeah I get it...but....the price difference between Talbot and Markstrom, when Talbot has more skill.....

 

there may not be a lot of elite young goalies out there but, they  do exist.

[Thebrewcrew]

4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

What hurts the most is based on the season opener with the Jets is that if the Jets had Laine and Scheifele healthy the entire series, the Flames wouldn't lost and drafted Askarov.

 

If the Flames would have lost, Cole Perfetti is Flames property. 

[redfire11]

6 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

If the Flames would have lost, Cole Perfetti is Flames property. 

And we would have a different Coach

[DirtyDeeds]

How many years now have we been saying " All we need is average goaltending".

 

In search of "average goaltending" we have pretty much had a revolving door of ...

1. Best goalie not in the NHL

2. Older goalies in the twilight of their careers

3. Reclaimation projects

4. Substandard goaltending from the farm.

 

None of them have worked out for a long enough time.. none.

 

Word is Markstrom is the hardest working goalie in the league. Starts his day working on his game earlier and finishes later than any other.

 

I liked most of what I saw from him against the Jets. 

 

I am cautiously optomistic we finally have a better than average goaltender on our team. One that will give us the chance to win we need most nights.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

2 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

How many years now have we been saying " All we need is average goaltending".

 

In search of "average goaltending" we have pretty much had a revolving door of ...

1. Best goalie not in the NHL

2. Older goalies in the twilight of their careers

3. Reclaimation projects

4. Substandard goaltending from the farm.

 

None of them have worked out for a long enough time.. none.

 

Word is Markstrom is the hardest working goalie in the league. Starts his day working on his game earlier and finishes later than any other.

 

I liked most of what I saw from him against the Jets. 

 

I am cautiously optomistic we finally have a better than average goaltender on our team. One that will give us the chance to win we need most nights.

 

But yet there will be some that say they're still not good enough.  Even after a flawless game.

[robrob74]

I didn’t realize that we got a new goalie coach!

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

8 hours ago, robrob74 said:

I didn’t realize that we got a new goalie coach!

Sigalet is still there in a different capacity. I dont know the reasoning for this new setup or how much input he has in the day to day goalie development.  One thing I never understood was how someone like LaBaraba (or Sigalet for that matter) can teach finer goalie skills and techniques when in their time they were at best an average goalie or never even played? 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Sigalet is still there in a different capacity. I dont know the reasoning for this new setup or how much input he has in the day to day goalie development.  One thing I never understood was how someone like LaBaraba (or Sigalet for that matter) can teach finer goalie skills and techniques when in their time they were at best an average goalie or never even played? 

being a good coach is about learning and communication. Just because you were good at something, and in most cases naturally talented, doesn’t mean you can communicate and teach someone else. 
 

there is a reason good or great players hardly ever make good coaches. 

[robrob74]

I’ve noticed the best coaches have been depth role players. Gretzky was the greatest player of all time and wasn’t the greatest coach. 
 

I wonder what Yzerman or Sakic would’ve been like as coaches? They’ve been pretty decent GM’s so far...
 

My theory is that the depth role guys have made good nhl players had to start to shape their games by studying how to be that role player. Good students if the game. Also, it would be guys who are talkative in the room maybe? But they played as “the man” all their lives until they had to change to make the nhl...

 

I've regarded Quinville, Vigneault, cooper, as some of the best coaches now coaching. What kind of players were they?

[travel_dude]

15 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

How many years now have we been saying " All we need is average goaltending".

 

In search of "average goaltending" we have pretty much had a revolving door of ...

1. Best goalie not in the NHL

2. Older goalies in the twilight of their careers

3. Reclaimation projects

4. Substandard goaltending from the farm.

 

None of them have worked out for a long enough time.. none.

 

Word is Markstrom is the hardest working goalie in the league. Starts his day working on his game earlier and finishes later than any other.

 

I liked most of what I saw from him against the Jets. 

 

I am cautiously optomistic we finally have a better than average goaltender on our team. One that will give us the chance to win we need most nights.

 

 

Two games in and we have 3 of 4 points.

Season opener was a bad performance from most of the team in the final 40l

And yet we still managed a point.

One weird goal away from a possible 2 points.

 

As some have said, Markstrom isn;t even warmed up yet.

I too am cauthiosly optimistic.

Not a bad start.

[Horsman1]

28 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Two games in and we have 3 of 4 points.

Season opener was a bad performance from most of the team in the final 40l

And yet we still managed a point.

One weird goal away from a possible 2 points.

 

As some have said, Markstrom isn;t even warmed up yet.

I too am cauthiosly optimistic.

Not a bad start.

2 game point streak... can we get to... 15??

 

[Thebrewcrew]

I gotta think it burns VAN management that they didn't keep Markstrom. That's what happens though when you overpay your role players. Hughes and Pettersson are great, but Markstrom was their MVP last year. He got hurt, prior to the pause and if the season had played out, VAN likely misses the playoffs.

 

Feels like VAN took the 3 games of Demko in the bubble at .985sv% and put their eggs in that basket, ignoring the .905sv% and GAA of over 3 in 37 career games. 

 

Demko might end up being very good, but for now, thanks Vancouver. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

57 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I gotta think it burns VAN management that they didn't keep Markstrom. That's what happens though when you overpay your role players. Hughes and Pettersson are great, but Markstrom was their MVP last year. He got hurt, prior to the pause and if the season had played out, VAN likely misses the playoffs.

 

Feels like VAN took the 3 games of Demko in the bubble at .985sv% and put their eggs in that basket, ignoring the .905sv% and GAA of over 3 in 37 career games. 

 

Demko might end up being very good, but for now, thanks Vancouver. 

 

 

 

I think the sticking point for VAN was the NMC.

They looked at that as the end of the future starter Demko.

Not well thought out.

 

From a risk/reward standpoint, they could make a deal to keep Demko if he turned out to be that good.

Or trade him for a big return.

Instead, they have Holtby who needs to recover his previous good showing.

Holtby was good on a team that could score it's way out of a jam.

Demko, who has a small resume of winning. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I gotta think it burns VAN management that they didn't keep Markstrom. That's what happens though when you overpay your role players. Hughes and Pettersson are great, but Markstrom was their MVP last year. He got hurt, prior to the pause and if the season had played out, VAN likely misses the playoffs.

 

Feels like VAN took the 3 games of Demko in the bubble at .985sv% and put their eggs in that basket, ignoring the .905sv% and GAA of over 3 in 37 career games. 

 

Demko might end up being very good, but for now, thanks Vancouver. 

 

 

 

Imagine we drafted Demko instead of McDonald.  We wouldn't have Markstrom right now.  Thanks Tod Button.

[rocketdoctor]

hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

On last nights showing you can keep Demko.  As for Askarov on the limited showing I saw at the WJ you can keep him aswell.

 

Markstrom has started out well.  May he continue.