Carty Posted December 15, 2019 Report Share Posted December 15, 2019 What if?... IF Eklund (yeah I know) is right about Jerseys asking price for Hall - A first-rounder, a current roster player (preferable on Defense with experience), a goalie prospect, and a few other picks or an A level and a B level prospect... Would you do it, and how would you meet the asking price?, or what would you be willing to offer if you thought the ask was too high?... We can use $7 mil a year for the discussion for now (optimistic, but had to pick a number), and keep in mind how the Flames would stay under the cap... Player(s) you think could be expendable and are not involved directly in the trade can also be used to trade for pick(s) in order the shed additional salary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted December 15, 2019 Report Share Posted December 15, 2019 Because Hall's next ask will be 7 yrs to take him to almost 36yo, I'm simply not interested. He's 28 and rapidly disintegrating prime. I think he'll be James Neal in a couple of years. If he isn't scoring, he's pretty much useless. Starting to look like Hall for Larsson is evening out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebrewcrew Posted December 15, 2019 Report Share Posted December 15, 2019 Hall will cost at minimum of 11x7. I would love to get him just because it would drive Oiler fans bonkers, but he’s only had one truly elite season, he’s injury prone and he’s gonna be expensive if we could keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 I'd be willing to do Hall for Kyl as a rental. Outside of that, I wouldn't do a conditional first for him providing he signs, and someone will. Someone will overpay on name recognition, don't want it to be us. I'd just as soon trade for an A prospect for less, Comtois, Kyrou etc. Not a 28yo having a frustrating yr. Typical Oiler, get frustrated, fall apart. It was hard enough watching JG frustrated this year. Just tends to drag everyone down. Hall has the potential to do that for 7 yrs. I'm tired of players that aren't mentally resilient. Imo, that's Hall. Frustration compounds the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 No to Hall. I'd rather roll the dice on Nico Hischier because he's a Center and he's signed long term. I mean, if Kevin Hayes is worth $7.1.... then Hischier at $7.5 while still having upside is worth the gamble. Hischier could be similar to Elias Lindholm... great player just stuck on a bad team. If we can rescue Hischier similar to how we rescued Lindholm, then maybe we have a 75-point Center that we desperately need to add. 1st round pick + veteran D (Hanifin) + prospect (I hope Tyler Parsons is enough) Hischier is 20 and signed long term so it's worth it. Former 1st overall (but arguably in a re-draft, it would be Pettersson, Makar, and then Hischier). Anyways, this is a Hall thread and for whatever it would cost to get him, i'd rather we target someone who plays Center or RW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, The_People1 said: No to Hall. I'd rather roll the dice on Nico Hischier because he's a Center and he's signed long term. I mean, if Kevin Hayes is worth $7.1.... then Hischier at $7.5 while still having upside is worth the gamble. Hischier could be similar to Elias Lindholm... great player just stuck on a bad team. If we can rescue Hischier similar to how we rescued Lindholm, then maybe we have a 75-point Center that we desperately need to add. 1st round pick + veteran D (Hanifin) + prospect (I hope Tyler Parsons is enough) Hischier is 20 and signed long term so it's worth it. Former 1st overall (but arguably in a re-draft, it would be Pettersson, Makar, and then Hischier). Anyways, this is a Hall thread and for whatever it would cost to get him, i'd rather we target someone who plays Center or RW. They'll rebuild/tool through Hischier and Hughes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 It's a no for me. I will recognize that Hall's reputation was perhaps unfairly tainted by his time in Edmonton. But unless you can make him 20 again and reverse all his injuries and baggage it's a no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 3 hours ago, conundrumed said: They'll rebuild/tool through Hischier and Hughes... I think just Hughes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 14 hours ago, The_People1 said: I think just Hughes... I don’t think they gave Hischer the contract they did to trade him. I agree with conundrumed, their rebuild includes both of those guys as the key pieces and they’ll build some center depth. Hughes-Hischer is a good 1-2 punch. I'm very interested in Hall and I don’t think the Devils are going to get near the rumored price. It’s pretty crazy to me how underrated he has become, he is an elite player in this league and IMO will be for a while. I doubt the Flames will get him (cap situation probably the biggest hindrance) but I think they can offer pieces like Kylington, Bennett etc and get themselves in the running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobieit Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, cross16 said: I don’t think they have Heischer the contract they did to trade him. I agree, their rebuild includes both of those guys as they key pieces and they’ll build some center depth. Hughes-Heischer is a good 1-2 punch. im very interested in Hall and I don’t think the Devils are going to get near the rumored price. It’s pretty crazy to me how underrated he has become, he is an elite player in this league and imo will be for a while. I doubt the Flames will get him (cap situation probably the biggest hinderance) but I think they can offer pieces like Kylington, Bennett etc and get themselves in the running. I agree, its becoming clearer that with Lindholm and Monahan at center, and Ryan playing well on the third line that nay upgrade needs to be in the top six on the wings.... Backlund unfortunately seems to be the odd man out and if he could be used as a center piece for Hall if the Devils want to stay remotely competitive then imo that's a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 I think that the Devil's asking price (up to this point) was high, and it would seem that whatever it was it was too high for the market, or Hall would already be on another team... That price will now take a drop, as Hall just sat out 2 games while Jersey expected an 'imminent trade'... That weakened Jersey's position, and they lost some leverage... Hall is 28, he has shown over time that he has elite skill, and when looking at his stats, the teams he has been playing on must be taken into consideration... I think on a better team he would have a better chance to show that skill... Jersey finished 29th last season, and is currently 30th... I would love it if the Flames could pick up Hall, and then retain him, at a reasonable cost... He was born, in Calgary, and he would have a better opportunity to shine... For me, it just comes down to what it would take to get a trade done, and how much he would want to sign an extension... If it was within reason, it would be a good move for the Flames... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, cross16 said: I don’t think they gave Heischer the contract they did to trade him. I agree, their rebuild includes both of those guys as they key pieces and they’ll build some center depth. Hughes-Heischer is a good 1-2 punch. im very interested in Hall and I don’t think the Devils are going to get near the rumored price. It’s pretty crazy to me how underrated he has become, he is an elite player in this league and imo will be for a while. I doubt the Flames will get him (cap situation probably the biggest hinderance) but I think they can offer pieces like Kylington, Bennett etc and get themselves in the running. Imagine a Hall-JG breakaway. Would be hard-pressed to stop that duo. The other thought is a perfect pass from JG to a streaking Hall. We don't have anyone that will score more than 50% on the breakaways. That's only two things that would see an improvement in our top 6. I don't know what the rest of his game is like these days, but as far as I remember, he is defensively better than a guy like Hayes. I don't want to give up an arm and a leg to do it, but I think they could easily re-sign him in season. He's not going to be $11m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABC923 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 I just worry about an overpay. Hall only has one 30+ goal season. He produces at a .89 p/g rate over the course of his current contract, which is very good but not elite. Only has 2 70+point seasons, one two seasons ago and the other in 2013/14. On average he is injured ~19 games every season. He's also having a down season. So if we acquire him, all that needs to be considered. He won the hart trophy on a career year; that was the exception for his career, not the norm. A good starting point would be to look at what Stone got last year. Stone is a superior player imo, and had a deal in place with Vegas before the trade, increasing his trade value a bit. The sens got Lindberg, a journeyman 3rd line LW with limited upside, Brannstrom, a okay defensive prospect with second pairing upside, and a 2nd round pick. An equivilent package from Calgary would have been something like Kylington + Jankowski + 2nd (although at least last season Janko>Lindberg). And that's for a better overall player imo, who was not a rental. So to me, a Hall trade would have to look similar. Maybe something like Gilles + Kylington + Frolik + 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 Hall is a Coyote. Rest of the return still pending Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, cross16 said: Hall is a Coyote. Rest of the return still pending That's a lot for a rental. Sucks that he is in the division, but glad we didn't pay that price. Plus NJ is eating 50% of the cap hit on Hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 Here is the pick condition. As well there is no extension this is a rental price. the prospects are meh but to get 1 first plus a very high chance of another high pick is likely what put this deal over the top for NJ and what Shero wanted. Probably where the Flames fell short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 Kind of looks like more than what the oilers got for him, plus at a time when his game would’ve been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 I like Hall, but that is a steep price... A first plus the prospects as a rental is high, and the deal becoming two first round picks if they win a round and re-sign him... Yikes... It's going to make playing the Yotes a little tougher though... The question now becomes, will he be on the FA market come July 1st?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABC923 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, Carty said: I like Hall, but that is a steep price... A first plus the prospects as a rental is high, and the deal becoming two first round picks if they win a round and re-sign him... Yikes... It's going to make playing the Yotes a little tougher though... The question now becomes, will he be on the FA market come July 1st?... The only significant salary coming off the books next year in Arizona is Soderberg. All other UFAs and RFAs make 1.5 mil or less, and you still need someone to play those positions. It's not impossible for them to fit him in so long as he doesn't command more than around 7 million, but it will be challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABC923 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 Let's look at each piece in the trade. Nate Scharr: Broke out in a big way in his draft +2 year, but has otherwise been unremarkable. 1g, 9P in 22 games this year in his first AHL season. That's a little less than Tuulola, but he's one year younger. Probably has a similar ceiling. Bottom 6 potential, ~even odds of becoming an nhler in some fashion. Nick Merkely: A bit older at 22. Seems to produce okay points at the AHL level, usually around .7 pts/game. Has only played one nhl game. Could be compared to Luke Philp in the heat. Possible 4th line center. Kevin Bahl: Huge guy (6'6), big defender. Puts up decent points for a defender, and probably the top prospect in this trade. Has top 4 potential, but that's about it. Good chance to become a full time nhler though. No flames prospect mixes has his build and skills, but I would peg his value as just under Kylington. None of those prospects is blue chip. Bahl is decent, but not great. The most valuable part of this trade are the draft picks (and this year is supposed to be a good draft, so the 1st is big). This trade will look great for NJ if the second draft pick becomes a 1st, but otherwise this is a quantity over quality type trade. Still glad we avoided it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 39 minutes ago, Carty said: I like Hall, but that is a steep price... A first plus the prospects as a rental is high, and the deal becoming two first round picks if they win a round and re-sign him... Yikes... It's going to make playing the Yotes a little tougher though... The question now becomes, will he be on the FA market come July 1st?... The 2020 1st is top 3 protected. They have to win a round (make the playoffs first) or sign Hall for the 2021 pick to be a 2nd. Both, and it's a 1st. None and it's a 3rd. Pretty meh on the prospects. The picks are really the biggest pieces being given up. We gave up about that much for Dougie or Hamonic. Not quite the same, but almost. I think it's a much higher prices than what Ottawa got for Stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, ABC923 said: Kevin Bahl: Huge guy (6'6), big defender. Puts up decent points for a defender, and probably the top prospect in this trade. Has top 4 potential, but that's about it. Good chance to become a full time nhler though. No flames prospect mixes has his build and skills, but I would peg his value as just under Kylington. Ooops, I missed this part. 3 prospects and 2 picks is a lot. Not that the prospects are that great, just it's a high price to pay for a rental at the least. I don't see Hall signing there, though there are lots of Calgarians that visit/own property in Arizona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 36 minutes ago, ABC923 said: The only significant salary coming off the books next year in Arizona is Soderberg. All other UFAs and RFAs make 1.5 mil or less, and you still need someone to play those positions. It's not impossible for them to fit him in so long as he doesn't command more than around 7 million, but it will be challenging. I think there is a good chance Hall could start to put up better numbers for the rest of the season with the Yotes, and that will bring up his asking price on a new contract... So it becomes a wait to see how the rest of the season goes from here... If his numbers start to look more like they did 2 seasons ago, someone will pay a fair bit more than $7 mil if he goes UFA... He wanted out of Jersey, so it was worth a shot for the Flames if they new the could extend him at about $7 mil, but much more than that likely puts him out of range... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 I actually think it's a pretty underwhelming return and question why Shero was so quick to pull the trigger on that. I get perhaps you don't want to risk injury but that's just not a return that would excite me as a Devils fan or GM. IMO the Devils got 2 AHL/NHL tweeners (and gave up 1 to boot) 1 Dman who appears to have the upside of Hamonic and 2 picks, none of which are likely to be that high. It's a decent price for a rental for sure but it's not crippling if he walks. At the same time I don't think the Flames were in a position to do this unless they had some feeling he was interested in a reasonable extension. I get the Coyotes doing this but for me, especially with the way the season has gone and position needs, it was an unnecessary risk for the Flames especially with the 2nd pick and that condition. It sounds like neither the Devils nor Hall were willing to give any assurances. If he hits UFA, which I fully expect he will, I think you'll see Calgary linked again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 I am not a big Hall fan myself, he is a good forward but not an elite forward. I am glad we didn't give up that return for a player I would have been the 5th best forward on our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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