JTech780 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, cross16 said: Overall, Neal but I’m not sure that’s a selling feature when you consider the benchmark. But it this is more about role. Problem Neal was his lack of speed meant he wasn’t productive in the top 6 and his subpar play is his own zone made him a bad fit in the bottom 6. Lucic is actually good in his own zone. Speeds not really a factor IMO. Role is. I wonder with the new player tracking coming next year if we will see players average speed. In baseball they have statcast and they track average sprint speed for their players, it would be nice to see something similar in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, JTech780 said: I wonder with the new player tracking coming next year if we will see players average speed. In baseball they have statcast and they track average sprint speed for their players, it would be nice to see something similar in the NHL. I thought last I read the nhl was ready but the PA is reluctant and doesn’t want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABC923 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 Random contract question. If we buyout Lucic’s contract, does Edm still cover 750k of that, or does their portion drop proportionally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, JTech780 said: I was just looking at Neal and Lucic's totals over the last 3 years and some might be surprised that Neal only has produced 1 more point than Lucic at 5v5 in the last 3 years. All the while Lucic has been a much better possession player over that time frame while playing on the Oilers, while Neal played on good teams like Nashville, Vegas and Calgary. I was quite shocked as well. For all the narrative about how bad Lucic is, Neal is right there it worse in so many categories. The kicker is penalty differential though. Lucic takes a lot of bad penalties. But i I mean it when I say it I’m not sure the flames didn’t get the better player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, cross16 said: I thought last I read the nhl was ready but the PA is reluctant and doesn’t want it. I think it's coming,the league and the NHLPA just agreed that the numbers can't be used in contract negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, ABC923 said: Random contract question. If we buyout Lucic’s contract, does Edm still cover 750k of that, or does their portion drop proportionally? they would take the % equivalent of salary retained in their cap hit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, ABC923 said: Random contract question. If we buyout Lucic’s contract, does Edm still cover 750k of that, or does their portion drop proportionally? Note the timing of the buyout.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, cross16 said: I was quite shocked as well. For all the narrative about how bad Lucic is, Neal is right there it worse in so many categories. The kicker is penalty differential though. Lucic takes a lot of bad penalties. But i I mean it when I say it I’m not sure the flames didn’t get the better player. The way I see it is this .. mostly comes down to fit . We know what we are getting with Lucic : - defensively responsible - a Massive upgrade to Hathaway ..whose role he will likely fill - if he pitches in goals, bonus - that beast in the playoffs we have been missing - a better player than Reaves Edmonton needed him to be a top 6 producing player and was acquired to play on a line with McDavid .. so in Edmonton , Failure .. so long as he more than makes up for the loss of Hathaway , he will fit in way better here I have no issues with him on the ice defending a lead ... I have no issues giving him a regular shift in the playoffs Neal .. if he isn't scoring , he's essentially useless.. hes not good defensively , hes not a play maker .. he uses the body somewhat , but nobody is scared of him Edmonton is gambling that he returns to being a top 6 player scoring 20+ goals.. if he doesn't , and ends up in the bottom 6 again , they will be hating him I'm the first to admit I truly believe this year was a blip for Neal, but hes again going to be asked to produce with fast players.. granted RNH will be much more effective in getting him the puck than Jankowski was , and Tippett knows the player already .. so the chances of him regaining form are good This isn't sour grapes.. I like Neal .. but as long as we get the Lucic we know we are getting .. if Neal rebounds and gets 20 again , then i call it a draw .. If Neal falls off a cliff again , we win .. if Lucic rediscovers a scoring touch and get 15 or more ? we win Czarnik looked great in Neal's spot when he was injured .. so its not like he is leaving a hole .. Lucic fills a hole for us .. an everyday player , who brings toughness, and doesnt hurt you on the ice .. we arent asking him to be a top 6 scoring forward like Edmonton was .. the bar is actually pretty low for him to be successful here Ive said the whole time , always liked the player .. just hated the salary .. i can look past it if he brings the beast for us and besides .. Edmontons playoff run a few years back was due largely to 3 players .. and now we got 2 of 'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 Can any of you fine people point out the best fit for Looch? He played with Nuge a lot, so I suspect his defensive ability. I don;t recall him playing RW, which is where we have a need. Bennett-Janko-Lucic would make sense if he could play that side. Tkachuk-Backlund-Looch if his defensive game is better than I think. 4th line doesn;t make a lot of sense, since the players are small and speedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett Lucic-Ryan-Mangiapane Dube-Jankowski-Czarnik This is if Frolik gets moved. I think Bennett can be productive with Backlund and Tkachuk. Lucic gives Ryan and Mangiapane some size on their line, I also think moving Mangiapane to his off wing gives him a chance to shoot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 31 minutes ago, cross16 said: Overall, Neal but I’m not sure that’s a selling feature when you consider the benchmark. But it this is more about role. Problem Neal was his lack of speed meant he wasn’t productive in the top 6 and his subpar play is his own zone made him a bad fit in the bottom 6. Lucic is actually good in his own zone. Speeds not really a factor IMO. Role is. Ya, true. What matters is getting the puck going the other way, getting it out and getting it into scoring positions. Is Justin Williams that fast? He makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob74 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 30 minutes ago, ABC923 said: Random contract question. If we buyout Lucic’s contract, does Edm still cover 750k of that, or does their portion drop proportionally? They probably retain 12% of the buyout amount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 44 minutes ago, JTech780 said: Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett Lucic-Ryan-Mangiapane Dube-Jankowski-Czarnik This is if Frolik gets moved. I think Bennett can be productive with Backlund and Tkachuk. Lucic gives Ryan and Mangiapane some size on their line, I also think moving Mangiapane to his off wing gives him a chance to shoot more. Well that's not a great solution. Move two guys to their off wing. I wonder if moving Lucic to RW with Backlund might help. He doesn;t have to score that much. ANyways, I will hold off until I see what happens at camp. We addressed a lack of 3rd line scoring at RW by adding a LW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
420since1974 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 The advanced and counting stats aren't actually that far apart for these two over the last two seasons. If you look at the last two seasons at 5v5:Counting Stats:Neal:GP: 134G: 22 A: 20P: 42Shots: 264Shooting Percentage: 8.33%Hits: 88Lucic:GP: 161G: 11A: 28P: 39Shots: 185Shooting Percentage: 5.95%Hits: 492Advanced Stats:Neal:CF%: 50.5%CF%: -1.76%HDCF%: 47.4%GF%: 46.4%xGF%: 48.1%xGF% Rel: -4.69%PDO: .992Offensive Zone Start: 59.5%LucicCF%: 50.9%CF% Rel:2.09%HDCF%: 50.8%GF%: 47.1%xGF%: 51.2%XGF% Rel: 2.3%PDO: .992Offensive Zone Start: 49.8% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
420since1974 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 At worst, it is a trade of two bad contracts with the Flames saving $7M and potentially receiving a 3rd round draft pick. In real money: 4 years of Lucic for Calgary = $16M. 4 years of Neal for Edmonton = $23M + 3M retained on Lucic. IMO, there was no place for Neal in Calgary's Top 6 and Lucic should fit in fine in the Flames Bottom 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartbreaker Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, 420since1974 said: At worst, it is a trade of two bad contracts with the Flames saving $7M and potentially receiving a 3rd round draft pick. In real money: 4 years of Lucic for Calgary = $16M. 4 years of Neal for Edmonton = $23M + 3M retained on Lucic. IMO, there was no place for Neal in Calgary's Top 6 and Lucic should fit in fine in the Flames Bottom 6. Sounds good for Murray Edwards! And if the conditions reported above are correct - we definitely do not want that 3rd round pick. Love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 36 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Well that's not a great solution. Move two guys to their off wing. I wonder if moving Lucic to RW with Backlund might help. He doesn;t have to score that much. ANyways, I will hold off until I see what happens at camp. We addressed a lack of 3rd line scoring at RW by adding a LW. Just replacing 2 left shot winger with 2 left shot wingers. Too much is made of players playing their off side, tons of players play their off side and succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said: Sounds good for Murray Edwards! And if the conditions reported above are correct - we definitely do not want that 3rd round pick. Love. Sounds like the conditions got reversed. We get an asset in a bad trade by it being a worse trade. Never heard of such a weird condition. NHL first. History of Flames GMs Over pay in July for players coming off a playoff run or rebound season. Raymond, Brouwer, Neal. Buyout two of three, trade other for a player we can;t even buy out. I thought BT was a smart GM who wasn;t great at trades, but smart with cap management. Has to pull a rabbit out of a hat to make up for this. Schooled by Holland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 Just now, JTech780 said: Just replacing 2 left shot winger with 2 left shot wingers. Too much is made of players playing their off side, tons of players play their off side and succeed. I'm just reacting to having to use move two good LW to RW just because we cab't seem to solve roster issues. Let's not pretend that Lucic will make a better 3rd line. Add to that, we move Bennett to line that has worked well without him. If Frolik or Brodie bring back a top 6 RW, this trade is more reasonable because we have improved the team. Do I really care about losing Neal? Not really. Am I disappointed about the trade? Yes. Did this do anything to improve the team, the cap or the long term outlook? Not that I can see. Meanwhile NYR is capped out and we can;t even make a bad trade for better players. We supposedly were targeting a better 3rd line C and we got a LW. Not even a younger player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, travel_dude said: I'm just reacting to having to use move two good LW to RW just because we cab't seem to solve roster issues. Let's not pretend that Lucic will make a better 3rd line. Add to that, we move Bennett to line that has worked well without him. If Frolik or Brodie bring back a top 6 RW, this trade is more reasonable because we have improved the team. Do I really care about losing Neal? Not really. Am I disappointed about the trade? Yes. Did this do anything to improve the team, the cap or the long term outlook? Not that I can see. Meanwhile NYR is capped out and we can;t even make a bad trade for better players. We supposedly were targeting a better 3rd line C and we got a LW. Not even a younger player. I actually think Lucic will be a much better fit on the 3rd line than Neal, Lucic is also a year younger than Neal. Lucic and Neal have very similar production over the last 3 seasons, but Lucic brings a better defensive game and significant increase in physical presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, JTech780 said: I actually think Lucic will be a much better fit on the 3rd line than Neal, Lucic is also a year younger than Neal. Lucic and Neal have very similar production over the last 3 seasons, but Lucic brings a better defensive game and significant increase in physical presence. I don;t doubt the physical part. If you like, he could play some minutes on the PP. As far as the defensive game, Neal played with Janko and Lucic played with Nuge. Remains to be seen where the fit is. BP will love him for being a team guy. Guys like Johnny are happy because there is someone to lay down the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 I'm pretty confident Neal can double his goal totals from last season but that would still only mean 14. Highly doubt he can keep up with McDavid except for the PP but even then, Chiasson did well in that role. Chassion feasted on the PP with McDavid and taking Chiasson off the PP means they render Chaisson back to a 5-goal scorer when they just signed him to a 2 year extension. The Oilers will win with Neal but lose with Chiasson. Lucic, I'm slowly warming up to him but mainly because I know he'll become a fan favorite as soon as he drops the gloves for us the first time. He's a top 3 fighter in the NHL and he's built like a rock who can fight once a week if necessary. He's durable playing almost 82-games every season. We haven't had a feared fighter like him since McGratton. I don't think Engellend is in that same class. He is not a defensive liability but offensively he's always a step behind. I'm guessing 5 to 10 goals and maybe 20 points depending on PP time and usage. That all said, he was a one time 30-goal scorer so it's not crazy to think he can score 20-goals under the perfect circumstances. Maybe somehow he finds a fit on the top PP unit as a net presence guy. Maybe he becomes a central piece on the second unit. Never know until we try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, The_People1 said: I'm pretty confident Neal can double his goal totals from last season but that would still only mean 14. Highly doubt he can keep up with McDavid except for the PP but even then, Chiasson did well in that role. Chassion feasted on the PP with McDavid and taking Chiasson off the PP means they render Chaisson back to a 5-goal scorer when they just signed him to a 2 year extension. The Oilers will win with Neal but lose with Chiasson. Lucic, I'm slowly warming up to him but mainly because I know he'll become a fan favorite as soon as he drops the gloves for us the first time. He's a top 3 fighter in the NHL and he's built like a rock who can fight once a week if necessary. He's durable playing almost 82-games every season. We haven't had a feared fighter like him since McGratton. I don't think Engellend is in that same class. He is not a defensive liability but offensively he's always a step behind. I'm guessing 5 to 10 goals and maybe 20 points depending on PP time and usage. That all said, he was a one time 30-goal scorer so it's not crazy to think he can score 20-goals under the perfect circumstances. Maybe somehow he finds a fit on the top PP unit as a net presence guy. Maybe he becomes a central piece on the second unit. Never know until we try. He played on the top power play under Geoff Ward in Boston..he knows how to use him so wouldn't be surprised to see him used on the pp here as well to a good extent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, travel_dude said: I don;t doubt the physical part. If you like, he could play some minutes on the PP. As far as the defensive game, Neal played with Janko and Lucic played with Nuge. Remains to be seen where the fit is. BP will love him for being a team guy. Guys like Johnny are happy because there is someone to lay down the law. Lucic didn't play with Nice that often, about as often as Neal played with Gaudreau. Lucic's main linemates last year were Brodziak and Kassian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 Lines by quarter 2018/19 1 LUCIC,MILAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - STROME,RYANDRAISAITL,LEON - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - RIEDER,TOBIASCAGGIULA,DRAKE - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - STROME,RYAN 2 KHAIRA,JUJHAR - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSECAGGIULA,DRAKE - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSELUCIC,MILAN - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSE 3 KHAIRA,JUJHAR - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSELUCIC,MILAN - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSEKHAIRA,JUJHAR - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - SPOONER,RYAN 4 2017-2018 Quarter GP G A PTS SOG PPP PPTOI TOI 1 5 1 0 1 11 0 0:02 13:01 2 20 7 3 10 58 1 0:08 14:07 3 19 1 3 4 32 0 0:12 13:14 4 21 3 2 5 35 1 0:07 12:15 Lines by quarter 1 LUCIC,MILAN - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSECAMMALLERI,MICHAEL - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - STROME,RYANKASSIAN,ZACK - LETESTU,MARK - PULJUJARVI,JESSE 2 LUCIC,MILAN - MCDAVID,CONNOR - PULJUJARVI,JESSEKHAIRA,JUJHAR - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - STROME,RYANMAROON,PATRICK - MCDAVID,CONNOR - PULJUJARVI,JESSE 3 KHAIRA,JUJHAR - LUCIC,MILAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSELUCIC,MILAN - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSEKASSIAN,ZACK - LETESTU,MARK - PULJUJARVI,JESSE 4 LUCIC,MILAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSE - STROME,RYANPULJUJARVI,JESSE - SLEPYSHEV,ANTON - STROME,RYANDRAISAITL,LEON - LUCIC,MILAN - PULJUJARVI,JESSE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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