2019-20 ROSTER PLANNING

[The_People1]

28 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I think playing him in the 4th line would be a big mistake, 

 

If you can let go of the idea he can still become something, then ya.  But 4th line is about where he should be.  I would count Bennett as a "playoff" guy and we carry him on the 4th line until then.  Stay healthy and he will be a beast for us when the games matter the most.

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Can someone explain to me where Bennett fits into this lineup? Is he taking Mangiapane's spot when Backlund is healthy? Is he playing on the 4th line? 

 

I think playing him in the 4th line would be a big mistake, so I would put him in Mangiapane's spot, but is playing Mangiapane playing on the 4th line the best solution.

 

How we intrepret lines based on twitter is not how the coach sees it.

If you ask who the 3rd line, he says they don't number them.

 

You could assume that Bennett either sticks with Backlund and Tkachuk or plays 3rd line minutes, regardless of whether it's with Ryan or Janko.

[GM_3300]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

How we intrepret lines based on twitter is not how the coach sees it.

If you ask who the 3rd line, he says they don't number them.

 

You could assume that Bennett either sticks with Backlund and Tkachuk or plays 3rd line minutes, regardless of whether it's with Ryan or Janko.

I honestly think it's time to throw Tkachuk up on the top line and move Lindholm down.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk

Bennett, Backlund, Lindholm (let this line to the heavy lifting by checking the opposition's top line)

Mangiapane, Ryan, Frolik

Lucic, Jankowski, Rieder

It's not like Backlund and Frolik just have to remain a thing on this team. Spread out the talent with strengths on each line.

[MP5029]

That’s an interesting idea, I’d like to see BP that and I think he was hoping to try that over training camp but the Chucky thing took that look away for him, maybe he can test it here and there over the season but that comes with risks...I’m not sore BP will do that unless he needs to mix thing up but who knows, maybe he will...it think he should take more risks like that IMO

[kehatch]

7 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Can someone explain to me where Bennett fits into this lineup? Is he taking Mangiapane's spot when Backlund is healthy? Is he playing on the 4th line? 

 

I think playing him in the 4th line would be a big mistake, so I would put him in Mangiapane's spot, but is playing Mangiapane playing on the 4th line the best solution.

 

The coach has indicated Bennett is his guy to move up and down the roster. A little like Ryan was last year I guess. 

 

Hopefully it works out okay for him. But personally I think that is the last thing Bennett needs. Everytime he starts to find success on a line they move him. Then when he gets trapped on a line without success they leave him there. 

 

I am not in the Bennett fan club. But if your sticking with him at least put him in a situation to be successful. 

[CheersMan]

29 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

The coach has indicated Bennett is his guy to move up and down the roster. A little like Ryan was last year I guess. 

 

Hopefully it works out okay for him. But personally I think that is the last thing Bennett needs. Everytime he starts to find success on a line they move him. Then when he gets trapped on a line without success they leave him there. 

 

I am not in the Bennett fan club. But if your sticking with him at least put him in a situation to be successful. 

Ryan is called the Doc because you can move him up and down lineup, he plugs holes and fixes things rather successfully. Hockey is not complicated if you have the athletic ability and good hockey IQ. For a forward you are playing either the left, middle or right side, that's it ....now go out there and make something happen. Bennett is doing just fine if you're not expecting 30 g and 50 assists. 

[kehatch]

18 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Ryan is called the Doc because you can move him up and down lineup, he plugs holes and fixes things rather successfully. Hockey is not complicated if you have the athletic ability and good hockey IQ. For a forward you are playing either the left, middle or right side, that's it ....now go out there and make something happen. Bennett is doing just fine if you're not expecting 30 g and 50 assists. 

 

No he isn't. The third line was a liability last season. Not just because of Bennett, but he was a big part of it. He has yet to show he can be a positive player in the NHL on a consistent basis. 

 

He somehow managed to be a team leading - 6 on a team with a positive differential of over 60, he takes way more penalties then he draws, his 5 on 5 numbers are poor, and he rarely plays special teams. And last season was an improvement. All that for 27 points and a 2.6.million dollar cap hit. He hasn't been fine. 

 

Either cut bait or put him in a position to be successful. But he is almost the last player on the team that should be jumping between all top 3 lines and every forward position. 

[CheersMan]

30 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

No he isn't. The third line was a liability last season. Not just because of Bennett, but he was a big part of it. He has yet to show he can be a positive player in the NHL on a consistent basis. 

 

He somehow managed to be a team leading - 6 on a team with a positive differential of over 60, he takes way more penalties then he draws, his 5 on 5 numbers are poor, and he rarely plays special teams. And last season was an improvement. All that for 27 points and a 2.6.million dollar cap hit. He hasn't been fine. 

 

Either cut bait or put him in a position to be successful. But he is almost the last player on the team that should be jumping between all top 3 lines and every forward position. 

and then there is the playoff SB, one of the few players that showed up vs the AVS. He lead the team with 5 pts in 5 games, was one of a few players that was not a minus while collecting 3 PPP. Lets give SB another season before we start talkin cutting bait. If we have another team playoff performance this season like we did last season then sure lets open up the conversation of cutting bait on many players. SB is here for the season, lets see how he grows as a player. 

 

Show us your lines that puts SB and the TEAM in a position to succeed. 

 

I'm not making excuses for SB which was the point of my post, just calming expectations.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

 

No he isn't. The third line was a liability last season. Not just because of Bennett, but he was a big part of it. He has yet to show he can be a positive player in the NHL on a consistent basis. 

 

He somehow managed to be a team leading - 6 on a team with a positive differential of over 60, he takes way more penalties then he draws, his 5 on 5 numbers are poor, and he rarely plays special teams. And last season was an improvement. All that for 27 points and a 2.6.million dollar cap hit. He hasn't been fine. 

 

Either cut bait or put him in a position to be successful. But he is almost the last player on the team that should be jumping between all top 3 lines and every forward position. 

 

 

He still managed -6 but he had some pretty good numbers according to this article

https://flamesnation.ca/2019/09/30/sam-bennett-one-of-three-flames-poised-for-a-big-offensive-step/

 

Quote

 

INDIVIDUAL
CF%	HDCF%	OZS%	S/60	CF/60	HDCF/60
53.5	55.5	54.1	7.3	13.0	4.63

The most promising trend was Bennett’s ability to generate high danger scoring chances, which he did at an impressive rate. Bennett has led the Flames in even strength HDCF/60 the last two seasons, which tells us he’s getting to the right places in the offensive zone.

Of Bennett’s 174 shot attempts last season, 62 of them came from inside the house, which converts to 35.6% of the time. To illustrate how impressive that correlation is, compare it to Johnny Gaudreau (24.8%), Sean Monahan (30.8%), Matthew Tkachuk (31.8%), and Elias Lindholm (31.0%).

 

 

It is possible some don't give him enough credit here. 

[travel_dude]

25 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

and then there is the playoff SB, one of the few players that showed up vs the AVS. He lead the team with 5 pts in 5 games, was one of a few players that was not a minus while collecting 3 PPP. Lets give SB another season before we start talkin cutting bait. If we have another team playoff performance this season like we did last season then sure lets open up the conversation of cutting bait on many players. SB is here for the season, lets see how he grows as a player. 

 

Show us your lines that puts SB and the TEAM in a position to succeed. 

 

I'm not making excuses for SB which was the point of my post, just calming expectations.

 

Well something has to be better than Lucic and Ryan.

Or Janko and Lucic.

 

Maybe Lucic and Ryan is exactly what will work, but that's not exctly putting him in a position to succeed.

Playing him with an elite passer and elite finisher might give you a better sense of what he's capable of.

To do that, he has to bring it.

Play him on LW with Monahan and Guadreau on RW.

Or RW, if he can play that effectively.  Many can;t.

Does the results make it worthwhile and how long do you wait for those results.

Logic would say 20 games would give you a sense, but can we afford to wait if the top line isn't producing.

 

Unfortunately, the jury is still out. 

Looking at the last playoffs doesn't change anything.

One assist in a 4-0 win.

1 goal and 12 PIM in a blowout loss.

3 assists in 2 other losses. 

Not what legends are made of.

 

We should not cut bait at this point.

Saing that, Bennett needs to show that he's improving, not running in place.

 

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

He still managed -6 but he had some pretty good numbers according to this article

https://flamesnation.ca/2019/09/30/sam-bennett-one-of-three-flames-poised-for-a-big-offensive-step/

 

 

 

It is possible some don't give him enough credit here. 

 

Fancy stats are all well and good.

You also need context.

Comparing it to Monahan etc. is fine, but it covers up the lack of sucess with those chances.

It does show where the majority of them came from. 

 

The fact Bennett has created high end chances at a good rate over the last two seasons is a positive trend. For it translate to increased counting numbers, Bennett needs to escalate his volume of shots and attempts, which is easier said than done.

[travel_dude]

As an aside, I don;t want to sound like I am dumping on Bennett.

Just pointing out why he's not the most important player on the team.

Waiting for him to turn into a great player takes its toll.

He may never become one, and certainly he won;t playing with lesser players.

He hasn;t with those players so far.

 

Perhaps the only thing to so is play him with Backlund and hope that Tjachuk takes it to a new level with Tkachuk.

[kehatch]

7 hours ago, CheersMan said:

and then there is the playoff SB, one of the few players that showed up vs the AVS. He lead the team with 5 pts in 5 games, was one of a few players that was not a minus while collecting 3 PPP. Lets give SB another season before we start talkin cutting bait. If we have another team playoff performance this season like we did last season then sure lets open up the conversation of cutting bait on many players. SB is here for the season, lets see how he grows as a player. 

 

Show us your lines that puts SB and the TEAM in a position to succeed. 

 

I'm not making excuses for SB which was the point of my post, just calming expectations.

 

The playoffs were encouraging, I agree. I am fine with giving him a chance. But that is sort of the point of my post. He is a player that needs a good season and hopefully a good start. Making him the line roulette guy is probably not the best way to do that.

 

The guy has been bounced around all three forward positions and hasn't been on a set line all preseason, and we still don't know where he is going to start. For a guy that has struggled but who should have more to show, that seems like a poor approach. 

[89Again]

I have been a big supporter of SB primarily because I have seen good skill in the presence of poor and changing line mates.  I have also seen improvement each year and I see a great heart on a kid I would want on my team.  The flames are low in grit and toughness as evidenced by their performance vs the Avs last year.  SB is the last guy that should be grabbing so much negative attention on these boards but in speaking of him here I will say that his shooting in my view is poor and I think attributes to his performance relative to expectations.  Goalies at this level are far superior and I don’t see strength in his shot even if he is getting chances.  He should spend sometime with SM and see what a great shot/ release requires.  If I was going to question anyone in a top six role and particularly relative to salary it would be Backlund.  His playoff performance was horrible, he is probably the most schizophrenic player I have seen.  Simply put, I can’t figure him out at all but after the playoffs, I am surprised to still see him on the team.

[cross16]

Bennett is trending towards a Frolik style career. He made some really nice strides in his D zone work last year, he generally pulls up the analytics of people he plays with, and despite playing with some very questionable talent he continues to be a solid play driver for his role. As that article touches on, and I agree with it 100%, the main issue is he has not finished near the level you would like so his raw numbers look disappointing but everything else is encouraging. When you combine the fact that you can get more out of Bennett with the fact that the Flames as a team need some more depth scoring, it is truly a wonder that more has not been done to try and get Bennett going. This is not just about what is good for Bennett, the Flames badly need Bennett to take that step just like they need Mangiapange, Dube, Lucic etc to take steps to round out the lineup and take the pressure off the top 6. There is a mutual benefit here. 

 

Bennett should be playing top 6 and should be a fixture on the 2nd unit PP and leave him there even if he has a rough game or two. Let him work out some confidence and finishing issues and I absolutely maintain you'll have a player. I can still easily see a scenario where Bennett turns himself into a 20 goal 45-50 point guy if the Flames just stick with him. 

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, 89Again said:

I have been a big supporter of SB primarily because I have seen good skill in the presence of poor and changing line mates.  I have also seen improvement each year and I see a great heart on a kid I would want on my team.  The flames are low in grit and toughness as evidenced by their performance vs the Avs last year.  SB is the last guy that should be grabbing so much negative attention on these boards but in speaking of him here I will say that his shooting in my view is poor and I think attributes to his performance relative to expectations.  Goalies at this level are far superior and I don’t see strength in his shot even if he is getting chances.  He should spend sometime with SM and see what a great shot/ release requires.  If I was going to question anyone in a top six role and particularly relative to salary it would be Backlund.  His playoff performance was horrible, he is probably the most schizophrenic player I have seen.  Simply put, I can’t figure him out at all but after the playoffs, I am surprised to still see him on the team.

 

If you are going to compare two players, you need to look at the full body of work.

Facing top players.

Killing penalties.

Taking crucial draws.

Transition from defense to offence.

 

Nobody is without fault.  But if it came down to a choice of Bennett or Backlund, right now the choice is obvious.

 

[travel_dude]

One thing we can all agree on is that Bennett needs better linemates than Lucic and Janko.

Finding the one player that makes a good tandem would be a good start.

Once they had that, they could plug in a 3rd player, not the other way around.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are going to compare two players, you need to look at the full body of work.

Facing top players.

Killing penalties.

Taking crucial draws.

Transition from defense to offence.

 

Nobody is without fault.  But if it came down to a choice of Bennett or Backlund, right now the choice is obvious.

 

 

 

I agree, but also, of course I know you know that Backlund had similar struggles early in his career to the point many wanted to give up on him as well. 

 

Hopefully this is a case where the development takes longer than we’ve noticed in recent years.

[conundrumed]

I'm pretty sour on the Lucic acquisition. I knew it would lead to gifting him a spot...Bennett's. I agree Bennett has to stay on PP2 and BP can't over-react if things get sideways. Hard to fix issues if the fix is moving players around. You never find consistency. I'd prefer Bennett-Ryan-Mangia personally. You can virtually have all 3 moving around. Mangia to left, Ryan to right, Bennett to any position. I don't want Backlund on the PP. Him and Frolik are our best PK guys.

[robrob74]

Just now, travel_dude said:

One thing we can all agree on is that Bennett needs better linemates than Lucic and Janko.

Finding the one player that makes a good tandem would be a good start.

Once they had that, they could plug in a 3rd player, not the other way around.

 

Its why I think we shouldn’t top load the 1st line. If they moved Lindholm down he could form a solid third pair and hopefully creating more depth.

[cross16]

At this point, i don't agree with the idea that the Flames lack depth to the point they should break up the top line. I understand the hesitation based on last year but it's a new year and you've got guys like Mangiapane, Bennett and Lucic that all have an opportunity to give you more than what you got last year out of it. You can Reider to that to a certain extent.

 

there is more skill and more opportunity there so to me it makes perfect sense to let that group try it first. If it doesn't work then you can look at moving guys down the lineup but at this point I don't see the desire to spread out scoring. 

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

Its why I think we shouldn’t top load the 1st line. If they moved Lindholm down he could form a solid third pair and hopefully creating more depth.

I don't think that's necessary. The 1st line has to be considered one of the top 5 in the league. Then we have the 3M line which has always been a great 2nd line if BP would stop Blockchaining with it. The odd man out for me is Jankowski. He's just so vanilla and his intensity level is nowhere close to NHL level.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm pretty sour on the Lucic acquisition. I knew it would lead to gifting him a spot...Bennett's. I agree Bennett has to stay on PP2 and BP can't over-react if things get sideways. Hard to fix issues if the fix is moving players around. You never find consistency. I'd prefer Bennett-Ryan-Mangia personally. You can virtually have all 3 moving around. Mangia to left, Ryan to right, Bennett to any position. I don't want Backlund on the PP. Him and Frolik are our best PK guys.

 

I hope the Lucic PP experiment doesn't last too long.  It might work, but I don't see a static setup to be a good idea.

Especially when the 2nd PP consists of Brodie-Ras and Lucic-Backlund(Bennett)-Czarnik.

The one goal he scored was a shot by Ras, that he knocked down, didn't try to tip.

 

Last year the 2nd unit was bad.  It usually had Brodie, Backlund, Neal (or Czarnik), Ryan and Ras (or another D).

Useless net front and very little shooting from the point.  Ras would give it to Brodie or set up right half wall.

 

I think we have better players than that to roll out.

Maybe the coach is waiting to see players earn PP time, but so far it's just a repeat of last year's setup.   

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I don't think that's necessary. The 1st line has to be considered one of the top 5 in the league. Then we have the 3M line which has always been a great 2nd line if BP would stop Blockchaining with it. The odd man out for me is Jankowski. He's just so vanilla and his intensity level is nowhere close to NHL level.

Bennett-Ryan-Mangiapane would be a good start.

I think it would help all three players.

 

[conundrumed]

Count me as one that is happy that we were able to make it work WITH Frolik and Brodie. We have last year's Calder pairing and one of our best lines in 3M, intact.

I honestly don't care about contract status, ice your best foot forward. And Brodie takes waaay too much slack for covering for Gio like JBo used to have to. Hard for me to imagine Gio with a Calder without a good skater like Brodie covering his step-ups, constantly. Does he screw it up too often? I don't think so. His role is to let Gio go, so Brodie likely has the toughest assignment every game.