Blockbuster: Hamilton Ferland Fox for Hanifin Lindholm

[JTech780]

28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I find it convenient that you're forgetting to mention how Hamilton and his team, on the whole, shut down Ovi and the Capitals, and are now moving the the 2nd round.   I could post plenty of screenshots of how Mackinnon man-handled our D, you're absolutely right.  I have no idea if you're trying to prove a point there but I can guarantee you it wouldn't help your argument if I posted them.

 

Look this is really simple, we just got smoked.  Particularly on D.   BT gave up D which didn't get smoked, and in fact are on the playoffs leaderboard for plus/minus as Well as goals scored and points.

 

There is no twisting that which doesn't bring you back to the truth.

 

I mean Ovi is 3rd in playoff scoring, but sure Hamilton shut him down.

 

Yes Carolina is moving on and we aren't. Lack of defense wasn't our issue, our issue was that we didn't come ready to play. If we came ready to play it would have been a different story. Different players wasn't going to make difference in that series. 

 

This team couldn't even make into the playoffs with Hamilton on the team.

[phoenix66]

59 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I find it convenient that you're forgetting to mention how Hamilton and his team, on the whole, shut down Ovi and the Capitals, and are now moving the the 2nd round.   I could post plenty of screenshots of how Mackinnon man-handled our D, you're absolutely right.  I have no idea if you're trying to prove a point there but I can guarantee you it wouldn't help your argument if I posted them.

 

Look this is really simple, we just got smoked.  Particularly on D.   BT gave up D which didn't get smoked, and in fact are on the playoffs leaderboard for plus/minus as Well as goals scored and points.

 

There is no twisting that which doesn't bring you back to the truth.

I don't think anybody disagrees we gave up the current best player in the deal..  time will tell if Hanifin continues on the same curve because right now hes just as good, possibly better than 22 yr old Dougie was

 

But you still haven't addressed,   We had a player that didn't want to be here .. and a locker room that also wanted him gone..what was BT supposed to do?

[ABC923]

Can't we just accept this was a trade that at least appears to have worked out for both teams?  We went from not even being close to the playoffs to winning the division a year later, and the biggest roster change was this trade.  Carolina made it to the second round, so win-win.  Of course, Ferland is likely to sign elsewhere, as is Fox, and Hamilton only has 2 years left before he's a UFA.  Meanwhile, Lindy and Hanifin are locked up long term, so I still like our side a bit better in the long run.

[jjgallow]

45 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I don't think anybody disagrees we gave up the current best player in the deal..  time will tell if Hanifin continues on the same curve because right now hes just as good, possibly better than 22 yr old Dougie was

 

But you still haven't addressed,   We had a player that didn't want to be here .. and a locker room that also wanted him gone..what was BT supposed to do?

 

Actually I think many feel we got the best player in Lindholm.   And he is good, yes.  That's really all I was getting at, that we gave up the best player.

 

I think the Flames need to address that more as a root problem, the whole players not wanting to be here.   Because what I saw in the playoffs suggested very few of them did.   In particular Gaudreau.   And if you have to trade them, find a way to get the best player out of the deal.   Maybe that means packaging a few of them.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

I mean Ovi is 3rd in playoff scoring, but sure Hamilton shut him down.

 

Yes Carolina is moving on and we aren't. Lack of defense wasn't our issue, our issue was that we didn't come ready to play. If we came ready to play it would have been a different story. Different players wasn't going to make difference in that series. 

 

This team couldn't even make into the playoffs with Hamilton on the team.

 

Different players might have made a difference as they might have come out to play...

[bosn111]

Top end players don't always fit with a particular team. Hamilton may have woken up a little more this season after being traded away from another team due to reasons other than on ice performance. Maybe he just fits the Carolina systems / mentality better. Maybe its the fact that Carolina is not exactly a hockey market so there is less pressure or less magnifying glass on him all the time so he can be looser. Who knows the reason.

 

Lindholm did better in Calgary than Carolina. Neal has been a regular 20+ goal getter up until this season where he just didn't fit. Many people blame Neal, I blame the fit and only the fit. He was brought in to play likely top line with Johnny and Mony which would never be a good fit since Mony and Neal are too similar, they just simply play different positions. Neal also doesn't fit with Backlund and Tkachuk simply due Backlund being more defensive and is mostly offensive opportunistically if something happens his way without making offense happen. That is not a bad thing, for a defence first job, but it doesn't help Neal.

 

Lindholm is also not the center for Neal. Right now, the Flames do not have that player and I don't have enough knowledge to know who that would be. The Flames also do not have the correct complimentary RW for Johnny and Mony. Lindholm worked early on, but it was more because of skill and necessity rather than ideal situation. 

 

Hanifin is young and on a good contract. His attitude seems to fit better than Hamilton's. His current mistakes he should learn from and continue to grow. Remember that most D don't hit their stride until late 20's. Until we can have a more direct comparison between the 2 players, it is tough to say who won the trade in that respect. We can all accept that Lindholm was better than Ferland, if only due to injuries and long term contract. Lindholm had 38 more points than Ferland, including 10 more goals and was a +30 to Ferland's +13. Lindholm also played 10 more regular season games and 5 playoff games to Ferlands 3. Lindholm is also 3 years younger.

 

Hamilton got 18 goals, 39 points and an even +/- this season over 82 games at 25 years old. In 80 games, Hanifin had 5 goals and 33 points (only 6 fewer points) and +18 at 22 years old. Hamilton was better offensively in Calgary in all 3 seasons than he was for Carolina this season. Hanifin did better with Calgary this season than any season in Carolina. Hanifin also improved his +/- while Hamilton dropped. Hamilton's first year in Calgary at 22 years old, he was - 14 and the best he ever hit was +12. Hanifin played 2nd pair D with lower minutes as well, not to mention Hamonic is not going to improve his offense whereas Giordano definitely helped Hamilton.

 

So if we really look at everything just from basic stats, Hamilton did not do much better than Hanifin and in some stats did worse, while Lindholm blew away Ferland in every stat except maybe hits. Calgary ended up with 8 more games played, 32 more points, +35 better in +/- and 6 years younger. Add in contract certainty of 2 players under 5 mil each for 6 years compared to 1 play at nearly 6 mil for 3 years and the other for just under 2 mil for 1 year, and that is again looking better for the Flames. We are not even accounting for the potential player fit issues and I would say the Flames won the trade so far. In 2 more years, we can look at the numbers again. If Ferland walks in UFA and Hamilton is difficult to re-sign while the Flames still have 4 more years of Lindholm and Hanifin... the writing will definitely be on the wall. 

[jjgallow]

On 26/04/2019 at 4:47 PM, bosn111 said:

Top end players don't always fit with a particular team. Hamilton may have woken up a little more this season after being traded away from another team due to reasons other than on ice performance. Maybe he just fits the Carolina systems / mentality better. Maybe its the fact that Carolina is not exactly a hockey market so there is less pressure or less magnifying glass on him all the time so he can be looser. Who knows the reason.

 

Lindholm did better in Calgary than Carolina. Neal has been a regular 20+ goal getter up until this season where he just didn't fit. Many people blame Neal, I blame the fit and only the fit. He was brought in to play likely top line with Johnny and Mony which would never be a good fit since Mony and Neal are too similar, they just simply play different positions. Neal also doesn't fit with Backlund and Tkachuk simply due Backlund being more defensive and is mostly offensive opportunistically if something happens his way without making offense happen. That is not a bad thing, for a defence first job, but it doesn't help Neal.

 

Lindholm is also not the center for Neal. Right now, the Flames do not have that player and I don't have enough knowledge to know who that would be. The Flames also do not have the correct complimentary RW for Johnny and Mony. Lindholm worked early on, but it was more because of skill and necessity rather than ideal situation. 

 

Hanifin is young and on a good contract. His attitude seems to fit better than Hamilton's. His current mistakes he should learn from and continue to grow. Remember that most D don't hit their stride until late 20's. Until we can have a more direct comparison between the 2 players, it is tough to say who won the trade in that respect. We can all accept that Lindholm was better than Ferland, if only due to injuries and long term contract. Lindholm had 38 more points than Ferland, including 10 more goals and was a +30 to Ferland's +13. Lindholm also played 10 more regular season games and 5 playoff games to Ferlands 3. Lindholm is also 3 years younger.

 

Hamilton got 18 goals, 39 points and an even +/- this season over 82 games at 25 years old. In 80 games, Hanifin had 5 goals and 33 points (only 6 fewer points) and +18 at 22 years old. Hamilton was better offensively in Calgary in all 3 seasons than he was for Carolina this season. Hanifin did better with Calgary this season than any season in Carolina. Hanifin also improved his +/- while Hamilton dropped. Hamilton's first year in Calgary at 22 years old, he was - 14 and the best he ever hit was +12. Hanifin played 2nd pair D with lower minutes as well, not to mention Hamonic is not going to improve his offense whereas Giordano definitely helped Hamilton.

 

So if we really look at everything just from basic stats, Hamilton did not do much better than Hanifin and in some stats did worse, while Lindholm blew away Ferland in every stat except maybe hits. Calgary ended up with 8 more games played, 32 more points, +35 better in +/- and 6 years younger. Add in contract certainty of 2 players under 5 mil each for 6 years compared to 1 play at nearly 6 mil for 3 years and the other for just under 2 mil for 1 year, and that is again looking better for the Flames. We are not even accounting for the potential player fit issues and I would say the Flames won the trade so far. In 2 more years, we can look at the numbers again. If Ferland walks in UFA and Hamilton is difficult to re-sign while the Flames still have 4 more years of Lindholm and Hanifin... the writing will definitely be on the wall. 

 

 

which is all good,

 

except we're talking about the playoffs.

 

Hamilton has had an extra playoff gear since his junior days.   He's showing it now and it's putting him in an elite category at the only time of year that it matters.

 

In a way that none of the other players mentioned above has or can.

 

imho we may have our answer by the end of these playoffs.

[travel_dude]

On 4/27/2019 at 10:20 PM, jjgallow said:

 

 

which is all good,

 

except we're talking about the playoffs.

 

Hamilton has had an extra playoff gear since his junior days.   He's showing it now and it's putting him in an elite category at the only time of year that it matters.

 

In a way that none of the other players mentioned above has or can.

 

imho we may have our answer by the end of these playoffs.

 

Offense has never been an issue for Dougie.  It's the defense and taking stupid penalties with that defense that has been the issue.  I don't care about his musuem interests.  Canes are deep enough on D to allow Dougie to play like a forward.  They are quick-strike, so he looks good there.

[JTech780]

 

The 3rd becomes a 2nd if Fox plays 30 or more games this upcoming season.

 

That is quite a bit more than I thought Carolina would get for Fox, considering he said all along that the only place he was going to play is New York.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

The 3rd becomes a 2nd if Fox plays 30 or more games this upcoming season.

 

That is quite a bit more than I thought Carolina would get for Fox, considering he said all along that the only place he was going to play is New York.

 

I kind of wish we did this deal on our own. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and bad feeling in my gut. Wow, I am so affected by the Flames 🤣

 

but all in all, I think the Trade on the NHL players are a wash and fox didn’t really need to be in the deal...

 

Hanifin=Ferland 

Lindhom</=Hamilton 

 

Fox to the Rangers should’ve been a separate deal.

[The_People1]

25 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

The 3rd becomes a 2nd if Fox plays 30 or more games this upcoming season.

 

That is quite a bit more than I thought Carolina would get for Fox, considering he said all along that the only place he was going to play is New York.

 

I agree, why would NYR do this if he was rumored to be wanting to sign with NYR anyways?  

[phoenix66]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I agree, why would NYR do this if he was rumored to be wanting to sign with NYR anyways?  

to get him now and not next year 

 

so at  the end of the day , we got Hanifin and LIndholm.. .. CAR got Hamilton and a 2nd round pick + 1 year of ferland who was injured for a lot of it 

[The_People1]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

to get him now and not next year 

 

so at  the end of the day , we got Hanifin and LIndholm.. .. CAR got Hamilton and a 2nd round pick + 1 year of ferland who was injured for a lot of it 

 

True enough.  I thought he was done 4th year.

[conundrumed]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I kind of wish we did this deal on our own. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth and bad feeling in my gut. Wow, I am so affected by the Flames 🤣

 

but all in all, I think the Trade on the NHL players are a wash and fox didn’t really need to be in the deal...

 

Hanifin=Ferland 

Lindhom</=Hamilton 

 

Fox to the Rangers should’ve been a separate deal.

It wasn't an option, if I remember correctly, the deal hinged on Fox.

AKA as Tim Erixon.

It was a good deal, get him out of our hair.

[ABC923]

I think we also need to evaluate this trade for what it sets the team up for in the future.  Currently Hamilton is helping their playoff run, but Ferland is mostly a non factor.  Dougie had a pretty bad first half this season as well, which is somewhat familiar to us as fans.  Lots of tools, and when he uses them watch out, but he doesn't always use them.  Next season though, the flames still have Lindholm and Hanifin, but Carolina likely only has Hamilton and a couple of draft picks.  Three years from now, we still have both guys and Carolina has just the draft picks and anything they might get from a potential Hamilton trade.  The trade made us younger and gave us two reasonably priced pieces locked up long term, extending our window for success and giving s certain level of cost certainty.

[conundrumed]

And Fox would be a side swipe we'd be trying to deal with, when we have bigger fish to fry.

Getting him out of here early was a good move. He'd be a headache.

[Thebrewcrew]

It still continues to be a good trade for both sides 

 

Flames got two quality young players for 6 years

 

Hurricanes got Dougie, who is one of the best offensive defenceman in the league. Ferland was good for them too and this season they reached the 2nd round. Who cares about Fox

 

Both teams would do this deal again I think

 

 

[Khrox]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:49 PM, Thebrewcrew said:

It still continues to be a good trade for both sides 

 

Flames got two quality young players for 6 years

 

Hurricanes got Dougie, who is one of the best offensive defenceman in the league. Ferland was good for them too and this season they reached the 2nd round. Who cares about Fox

 

Both teams would do this deal again I think

 

 

This. Both teams got what they wanted. Calgary needed a bit of a culture shift, as did the Hurricanes. While Dougie was the best player, there was at least enough questions about his attitude that it came out as a sticking point from multiple reporters, and was mentioned multiple times by various insiders. Ferland was going to want a big raise, and we sold high on him (as much as we all loved him, with his injury history, especially with concussions, it was a good move). We got 2 players, one was basically where Dougie was at when we got him (except on the left side), the other was a very versatile forward who filled a lot of needs for us (RHS, can play C or RW. Plays PP and PK, defensively responsible. All at the cost of a bit of physicality), and we got them for a good price, on good term. The Flames have got to be happy with what they got, and you know Carolina is happy. Sometimes you've got to accept that a trade had literally no loser in it.

[The_People1]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:49 PM, Thebrewcrew said:

It still continues to be a good trade for both sides 

 

Flames got two quality young players for 6 years

 

Hurricanes got Dougie, who is one of the best offensive defenceman in the league. Ferland was good for them too and this season they reached the 2nd round. Who cares about Fox

 

Both teams would do this deal again I think

 

 

 

It's great this trade worked out for both teams.  Certainly helps build rapport and could setup more future business.  The Canes have good youth up and coming, we in different Conference/division, etc, makes for great trading partners.