Who's to Blame?

[travel_dude]

JJ, you are a piece of work.  Do you think I really car if you think I win or lose this debate?  How do even measure that?  You do the usual circular arguments that allude to stuff talked about by yourself or others as fact.  

 

You do remember where BT got experience don't you?  As for the choices he made?  Clear the net and start over.  Hire a new coach.  Such radical thinking, eh.  Some of the decisions made by this GM in the league are questionable.  But I support the idea of replacing the goalies and coaches.

GG and co. may not be the right guys, but BH was not either.  

[jjgallow]

47 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

JJ, you are a piece of work.  Do you think I really car if you think I win or lose this debate?  

 

Awe, now that's just adorable

[ABC923]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

He then thinks....experience is not necessary (because it never was for him), and hires a head coach without Any NHL Head Coach experience.

 

 

Gulutzan was head coach of the Dallas Stars for 1.5 seasons...

[jjgallow]

3 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

Gulutzan was head coach of the Dallas Stars for 1.5 seasons...

 

True Dat...  Edited to "Successful" head coach experience ...   nice catch.

[cross16]

I think the exercise of trying to blame someone for a start lke this is a fools game. Reality is blame is all over the blame so all you are doing is debating who is more to blame which I think is silly personally. 

 

Posted this somewhere else but this is were rebuilds get ugly. Stripping down a team is easy, putting young players in a lineup is easy, spending cap space is easy, what is difficult is trying to get a young team to win and truly believe in being a pro. Outside of the Hawks and Pens (1 lucked into a hall of game coach and 1 lucked into one of the best players ever) this is what you go through when you are rebuilding. I think the lesson for me here is not assign blame, its the realization that Flames are probably at least a year (could argue more) behind in where we thought they were in the rebuild process. 

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think the exercise of trying to blame someone for a start lke this is a fools game. Reality is blame is all over the blame so all you are doing is debating who is more to blame which I think is silly personally. 

 

Posted this somewhere else but this is were rebuilds get ugly. Stripping down a team is easy, putting young players in a lineup is easy, spending cap space is easy, what is difficult is trying to get a young team to win and truly believe in being a pro. Outside of the Hawks and Pens (1 lucked into a hall of game coach and 1 lucked into one of the best players ever) this is what you go through when you are rebuilding. I think the lesson for me here is not assign blame, its the realization that Flames are probably at least a year (could argue more) behind in where we thought they were in the rebuild process. 

No winners in the blame game.

[The_People1]

16 hours ago, conundrumed said:

So you support a coaching change, already?

 

I would support a change to AV today if he was available.  So, short of that, no.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, MAC331 said:

No winners in the blame game.

 

 

[The_People1]

16 hours ago, robrob74 said:

A part of me wants to send Bennett to the AHL just to start grooming him into a C the right way. I think he is still one of our best competitors, but he could use some time with success in the AHL as a full time C and get his scoring touch back.

 

Ya i know what you mean but watching Bennett in pre-season, he was dominating AHL tryouts.  I'm not sure if he has anything to gain from playing against AHLers the rest of the season.  It seems like a sophomore jinx... but then again, he's not even generating one legit scoring chance per game anymore.

[DirtyDeeds]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would support a change to AV today if he was available.  So, short of that, no.

Well Denis Savard was replaced by Joel Quenneville and we all know that history. I bet if Joel Quenneville became available you would change coaches.. or how about:

 

Mike Babcock ?

Bruce Boudreau ?

Claude Julien ?

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

I think the exercise of trying to blame someone for a start lke this is a fools game. Reality is blame is all over the blame so all you are doing is debating who is more to blame which I think is silly personally. 

 

 

It was actually cross's fault...he's trying to distract us...  

[Cowtownguy]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

It was actually cross's fault...he's trying to distract us...  

I agree that the Flames have made some unusual decisions. It is odd that we have a GM and a coach with little experience. It is also odd that an established person like Burke would make such decisions. In order to believe that these decisions are the result of business ties, do we also not have to accept that ownership is willing to make a major financial sacrifice in order to maintain ties to Jim Treliving and friends?

 

Is it not more likely that some decisions are being made because of fashionable trends in the game? Some fans were arguing that McDavid was far better than Grandpa Crosby before McJeebus even entered the league. It seems to be a popular belief that young players now demand a specific style of coaching (to the extent that the inmates now run the asylums). Heck, Rogers even tried to forced Strombo on us; socks and uncomfortable looking suits and all. 

[Carty]

3 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

Heck, Rogers even tried to forced Strombo on us

 

That's it...   You just nailed it...

 

This is all Strombopopposnuffleupagus's fault...   That rat bastard...

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Well Denis Savard was replaced by Joel Quenneville and we all know that history. I bet if Joel Quenneville became available you would change coaches.. or how about:

 

Mike Babcock ?

Bruce Boudreau ?

Claude Julien ?

 

Quenneville, sure.  And Darryl Sutter.  That's about all.

 

1 hour ago, Carty said:

 

That's it...   You just nailed it...

 

This is all Stombopopposnuffleupagus's fault...   That rat bastard...

 

It's probably all Donald Trump's fault somehow... 

[YounGuns]

On 11/13/2016 at 9:34 PM, jjgallow said:

 

Yes they are, because, this is basically Year Two of this performance level.  A continuation from last season.

 

This was responded to by what is, rightly or wrongly, the Prototypical amateur solution proven to basically never work in real life:

 

Fire the coach and get new goalies.

 

Someone will be to blame, and it will likely be the someone who made that call.

 

I think when you consider our past 4 seasons - and particularly our last season - I'm in agreement with Travel Dude that Treliving made the most logical moves and most likely a very well thought out and discussed and analyzed move.  Our system sucked last year, and our goaltending was horrendous.  You look at a few of our players and numerous core players had career years, yet we couldn't stop a puck.  Good - or even average - goaltending and we would have been a playoff bubble team, if not a playoff team.  It wasn't just Flames fans that understood and agreed with most of the moves Treliving has done recently.  A lot of the trades, signings and acquisitions he's made - particularly in the past year - seem to have great reviews from a lot of the hockey bloggers, analysts and writers.  Not that they know everything, but my point is that there were a lot of people speaking high praise of what Treliving was doing with this team and that praise wasn't just coming from people in an organization who you could argue view everything through rose colored visors. 

 

JJ I'm pretty sure that if Treliving had kept our goalies from last season you'd be pretty vocal about how stupid of an idea that is and how we need new goaltenders.  Or can you find me a quote of yours that states you were upset with the new goaltending direction?  So to say he makes an "amateur" move in getting new goaltenders....the only "amateur" thing I see in that is that you didn't have to be an expert to see we needed new goaltending, so yes even an amateur GM would have done that, but so would every expert GM because our goaltending was worst in the league.  So he goes out and gets not one, but two solid goaltenders.  But, as is the case often in sports, what looked great on paper hasn't resulted in much yet, so we'll see what happens there, but we didn't have to give up much to get those goaltenders and we aren't signed to them for the next 5 years.  So people here and hockey analysts were saying "Well done Treliving".  Yet you call it an amateur move?

 

As for the coaches, I didn't know anything about GG when he was signed, but I'm not one to know about coaches in the minors or assistant coaches on other teams.  I will say I was a little surprised with the signing, but my ignorance on what was out there and what we needed forced me into a "wait and see" approach.  And I'm still there...I'm not ready to pin our losses on GG yet, but that ice he's on is getting thinner with every loss.

 

Just something to consider:  The GM of the team that won the Stanley cup last year went out and made one of those "amateur" moves you were talking about that "never work in real life".  He did that by getting a new coach mid-way through the season.  That change took a terrible Penguins team into an unstoppable juggernaut.  Damn all those GMs winning all those Stanley Cups by making "prototypical amateur" moves!

[CheersMan]

Blame comes with every unsuccessful season.  Looking at years past, the Flames have adopted an in-depth review process.  I’m not sure if ownership or Burke instilled this process but it is done thoroughly at the completion of every year.  Last season we reached 35 wins, turns out it was a firing offense for our coach, with a year remaining on his deal, even though he was supplied the worst goaltending trio in the league. 

Much, much more was expected this year.  If the wins don’t start adding up, me thinks the turnips (plural) will be rolling off the wagon much sooner than the 24 days it took to fire BH.  This was the risk, BT knew it and he took it, he set the bar all by himself (at the expen$e of the owner$), now he needs 35-40 wins this season to save his own neck.  Like the old saying goes, “you live by the sword, you die by the sword!”

All this can still be fixed, just need another 35 wins.  GFG!

[cross16]

Dissapointment or not the only way Treliving gets fired this offseason is if Burke decides he wants the GM job again, and he's on the recrod many times as saying he does not. 

 

This is a rebuild folks, you do not fire 2 GMs when you are trying to rebuild is you want to be successful at it. If you want to rebuild for the next 10 years ala Edmonton then by all means fire your GM. I don't think Treliving deserves to be fired irregardless of what happens this season. 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Dissapointment or not the only way Treliving gets fired this offseason is if Burke decides he wants the GM job again, and he's on the recrod many times as saying he does not. 

 

This is a rebuild folks, you do not fire 2 GMs when you are trying to rebuild is you want to be successful at it. If you want to rebuild for the next 10 years ala Edmonton then by all means fire your GM. I don't think Treliving deserves to be fired irregardless of what happens this season. 

 

I agree completely.  Feaster got fired because he was ineffective as a GM; poor trades, asset management, set too high expectations.  His drafting was great and bad at the same time.

 

BT is a smarter GM.  He has some strikes and some home runs, but overall he has the roster in good shape this summer at the earliest.  People can defend or criticize the firing of BH.  Same with the hiring of GG.  We should have a roster capable of improving in all aspects of the game, not just fancy stats.  

 

As you say, the rebuild is still going on.  Players signed for the start/mid-point of the rebuild will be expiring soon.  That's when you need to add pieces to the roster.  Young Guns is not going to do it alone.  You need the Brouwers, Frioliks and Backlunds to bridge the gap.  Most of our best prospects (maybe all of them) are relatively new to the AHL or still in junior.

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

BT is a smarter GM.  He has some strikes and some home runs, but overall he has the roster in good shape this summer at the earliest.  People can defend or criticize the firing of BH.  Same with the hiring of GG.  We should have a roster capable of improving in all aspects of the game, not just fancy stats.  

 

It all honesty this is what gets me going the flexibility of this team coming in the summer this year. At the same time though, I dont think there is anyway to argue that this team isent improving, even if we arent winning. The fancy stats have shown in the past, that they equal long term success, even if I dont like them. I dont think the flames fire GG or BT, GG will get another season after this one at least, but I still think the flames play better in the second half and dont make the playoffs.

[Cowtownguy]

17 hours ago, YounGuns said:

 

I think when you consider our past 4 seasons - and particularly our last season - I'm in agreement with Travel Dude that Treliving made the most logical moves and most likely a very well thought out and discussed and analyzed move.  Our system sucked last year, and our goaltending was horrendous.  You look at a few of our players and numerous core players had career years, yet we couldn't stop a puck.  Good - or even average - goaltending and we would have been a playoff bubble team, if not a playoff team.  It wasn't just Flames fans that understood and agreed with most of the moves Treliving has done recently.  A lot of the trades, signings and acquisitions he's made - particularly in the past year - seem to have great reviews from a lot of the hockey bloggers, analysts and writers.  Not that they know everything, but my point is that there were a lot of people speaking high praise of what Treliving was doing with this team and that praise wasn't just coming from people in an organization who you could argue view everything through rose colored visors. 

 

JJ I'm pretty sure that if Treliving had kept our goalies from last season you'd be pretty vocal about how stupid of an idea that is and how we need new goaltenders.  Or can you find me a quote of yours that states you were upset with the new goaltending direction?  So to say he makes an "amateur" move in getting new goaltenders....the only "amateur" thing I see in that is that you didn't have to be an expert to see we needed new goaltending, so yes even an amateur GM would have done that, but so would every expert GM because our goaltending was worst in the league.  So he goes out and gets not one, but two solid goaltenders.  But, as is the case often in sports, what looked great on paper hasn't resulted in much yet, so we'll see what happens there, but we didn't have to give up much to get those goaltenders and we aren't signed to them for the next 5 years.  So people here and hockey analysts were saying "Well done Treliving".  Yet you call it an amateur move?

 

As for the coaches, I didn't know anything about GG when he was signed, but I'm not one to know about coaches in the minors or assistant coaches on other teams.  I will say I was a little surprised with the signing, but my ignorance on what was out there and what we needed forced me into a "wait and see" approach.  And I'm still there...I'm not ready to pin our losses on GG yet, but that ice he's on is getting thinner with every loss.

 

Just something to consider:  The GM of the team that won the Stanley cup last year went out and made one of those "amateur" moves you were talking about that "never work in real life".  He did that by getting a new coach mid-way through the season.  That change took a terrible Penguins team into an unstoppable juggernaut.  Damn all those GMs winning all those Stanley Cups by making "prototypical amateur" moves!

Don't get me wrong, Elliott was a solid acquisition especially when considering what was out there. The only knock on the move was that Elliott played for a team far more effective defensively, and Elliott was known to struggle with confidence. I recall the Blues thinking about trading him because of this issue. If he gets the solid d in front of him, I strongly suspect that he comes back quickly. The problem is, our d have been less than stellar.

[Carty]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

The problem is, our d have been less than stellar.

 

Depends on your definition of stellar...   Sometimes it looks like they are 

       

[MAC331]

16 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I agree completely.  Feaster got fired because he was ineffective as a GM; poor trades, asset management, set too high expectations.  His drafting was great and bad at the same time.

 

BT is a smarter GM.  He has some strikes and some home runs, but overall he has the roster in good shape this summer at the earliest.  People can defend or criticize the firing of BH.  Same with the hiring of GG.  We should have a roster capable of improving in all aspects of the game, not just fancy stats.  

 

As you say, the rebuild is still going on.  Players signed for the start/mid-point of the rebuild will be expiring soon.  That's when you need to add pieces to the roster.  Young Guns is not going to do it alone.  You need the Brouwers, Frioliks and Backlunds to bridge the gap.  Most of our best prospects (maybe all of them) are relatively new to the AHL or still in junior.

 

BT has done a very good job since his arrival here. Posters who have win, win, win on the brain are always going to vent and point fingers. BT is managing the roster, fans need to manage their expectations.

[MAC331]

13 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

Don't get me wrong, Elliott was a solid acquisition especially when considering what was out there. The only knock on the move was that Elliott played for a team far more effective defensively, and Elliott was known to struggle with confidence. I recall the Blues thinking about trading him because of this issue. If he gets the solid d in front of him, I strongly suspect that he comes back quickly. The problem is, our d have been less than stellar.

If any of you watched Elliott and the Blues in the playoffs last year, he was the one hanging that team in there not their allstar defensemen. Trading for Elliott was a brilliant move. Everyone fights their confidence at times when your team is losing or if as an individual you are not scoring or performing to your own expectations, that is life. It is third group of individuals that have to turn their fortunes around in a positive way. Last night's game was a good start.

[JTech780]

Who is to blame?

 

Everyone.

 

Treliving: the lineup needs more size and speed to truly develop the identity it wants.

 

Gulutzan: some of the lineup choices have been questionable, but overall he has the right idea.

 

Goalies: Elliott hasn't been the goalie we were expecting, too many weak goals.

 

Defense: Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton have all failed to play the way they are capable. The only defenseman stepping up is Engelland.

 

Forwards: Outside of the Backlund line and the 4th line the forward group has been ineffective, Gaudreau and Monahan especially.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around, it's just easier to blame the new coach or blame the GM than it is to blame your 6 or 7 favorite players.

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

Who is to blame?

 

Everyone.

 

Treliving: the lineup needs more size and speed to truly develop the identity it wants.

 

Gulutzan: some of the lineup choices have been questionable, but overall he has the right idea.

 

Goalies: Elliott hasn't been the goalie we were expecting, too many weak goals.

 

Defense: Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton have all failed to play the way they are capable. The only defenseman stepping up is Engelland.

 

Forwards: Outside of the Backlund line and the 4th line the forward group has been ineffective, Gaudreau and Monahan especially.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around, it's just easier to blame the new coach or blame the GM than it is to blame your 6 or 7 favorite players.

While I agree with most of your points I disagree with your glossing over the coaching.

 

 

Not just GG because he is not in charge of the PP and PK which are both bottom of the league.

 

GG however had lots of time to get ready. He also had to know the reason he got the job was because BH got off to a slow start and had a losing season. He has failed in the start of the season.... miserably.   Please no excuses..

 

JH played superb in the Worlds, he should have been an easy transformation to the Flames early on.

D started slow and did not mesh last season. We though because Hamilton was new and Brodie was injured. Maybe we figured wrong but GG has not found a good set of pairings on D and his blending was also a dismal failure.

 

The system is not being played by all for 60 minutes... why? It is not a difficult system, it is just a group based system. It sould have taken the team 2-3 weeks to pretty much get any system so you have to point fingers at implementation... If the players aren't buying into the system it is flawed or they aren't being taught properly... Mostly a coaching problem unless the system is obviously flawed..

 

My personal bone with GG to pick is the optional skates. I can see where down the road in a long season why the need for more time off might be required however....

 

This is/was lost valuable time to the team early on, both in training the system and team practice needed to play together and bond as a team.