Who's to Blame?

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

My personal bone with GG to pick is the optional skates. I can see where down the road in a long season why the need for more time off might be required however....

 

This is/was lost valuable time to the team early on, both in training the system and team practice needed to play together and bond as a team.

 

That's not all on Gulutzan. Between the travel schedule and CBA mandated day offs the Flames have been very restricted in practice time and there really hasn't been alot of time to hold full on practices. Doesn't make alot of sense to hold full practices when you are playing as much as the Flames have been. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Gulutzan doens't deserve blame but he shoudln't get the majority of it and is you take the pulse of the boards Gulutzan is taking a majority of the blame. That isn't fair, IMO there is far more to go around than that. Outside of the special teams this team really isn't playing as bad as people think. 

 

The Gaudreau example also isn't a very good one. If you saw how Team NA played at that World Cup, you'd see it was basiclaly the polar opposite to how Flames are trying to play. That favored Gaudreau, but its not a system that you can use to win consistantly in the NHL.

[DirtyDeeds]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

.....

Outside of the special teams this team really isn't playing as bad as people think. 

Well the standings and losses say they are not playing well enough.

 

 This is a cap based league.. Most teams will play competitively however... 

 

This is not your kids little league where you can tell your son you played good, in your loss. This is pro sports of the highest caliber, "Wins" are the only parameter for judging a teams performance. We are not a floor budget team trying to make do. We are a cap spending team with much higher goals and expectations than "playing good" but not getting the wins.

[cross16]

13 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Well the standings and losses say they are not playing well enough.

 

 This is a cap based league.. Most teams will play competitively however... 

 

This is not your kids little league where you can tell your son you played good, in your loss. This is pro sports of the highest caliber, "Wins" are the only parameter for judging a teams performance. We are not a floor budget team trying to make do. We are a cap spending team with much higher goals and expectations than "playing good" but not getting the wins.

 

100% disagree. This is a young team and a young team in a rebuild. Expecting them to just win without learning how to win as a team is unfair expectations. 

 

Have to crawl before you can walk. Plus, the idea of they are starting to play better suggests that wins are coming, and i firmly believe they are. 

[JTech780]

25 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

While I agree with most of your points I disagree with your glossing over the coaching.

 

 

Not just GG because he is not in charge of the PP and PK which are both bottom of the league.

 

GG however had lots of time to get ready. He also had to know the reason he got the job was because BH got off to a slow start and had a losing season. He has failed in the start of the season.... miserably.   Please no excuses..

 

JH played superb in the Worlds, he should have been an easy transformation to the Flames early on.

D started slow and did not mesh last season. We though because Hamilton was new and Brodie was injured. Maybe we figured wrong but GG has not found a good set of pairings on D and his blending was also a dismal failure.

 

The system is not being played by all for 60 minutes... why? It is not a difficult system, it is just a group based system. It sould have taken the team 2-3 weeks to pretty much get any system so you have to point fingers at implementation... If the players aren't buying into the system it is flawed or they aren't being taught properly... Mostly a coaching problem unless the system is obviously flawed..

 

My personal bone with GG to pick is the optional skates. I can see where down the road in a long season why the need for more time off might be required however....

 

This is/was lost valuable time to the team early on, both in training the system and team practice needed to play together and bond as a team.

 

Gaudreau missed a month of training camp after the World's. He basically didn't play in the system under Hartley, and now is being asked to play within a system for the first time in professional hockey, it is going to take time for him acclimatize. IMO that's not on the coach.

 

The defense hasn't played well, Brodie looks slower this year. Giordano isn't moving the puck as quick as he normally does. Some of this might be on the coach, but those players are players that we're considered for team Canada, they aren't playing like those players right now, they need to step up. Questioning the mixing if the pairings is fair, but why stick with pairings that aren't working, why not mix things up till you find something that does work.

 

It takes about 15-20 games for coaches to implement a new system. Probably longer when you going from an archaic system Hartley was using, add in the fact that Gaudreau and Monahan missed training camp and you have a first line that are going into the season not knowing the new system. I agree though the time is over for this excuse and those players need to start playing.

 

Most teams use optional skates the morning of games or the day of travel, this is nothing new or out of the ordinary, so I don't get the issue with this.

[JTech780]

Can someone please change the title to Who is to Blame or Who's to Blame, my OCD is kicking into overdrive every time I respond on this thread.

[DirtyDeeds]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

100% disagree. This is a young team and a young team in a rebuild. Expecting them to just win without learning how to win as a team is unfair expectations. 

 

Have to crawl before you can walk. 

The rebuild is mostly done. I expect them to do better(quite a bit better) than last season. They aren't....... This is just another excuse Cross "young team in rebuild" 

 

Our core is pretty much set. They were given many quality upgrades(Brouwer, Hamilton, Versteeg for example)  that should be showing better performance that what we are getting. I included Hamilton because he should fit your learning to win comment yet has not shown much improvement.

 

As for the unfair expectations.. not at all... This is just a hindsight excuse.

[DirtyDeeds]

9 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Gaudreau missed a month of training camp after the World's. He basically didn't play in the system under Hartley, and now is being asked to play within a system for the first time in professional hockey, it is going to take time for him acclimatize. IMO that's not on the coach.

So he did not play in a system in the Worlds?  Seems he picked up that system easily with little to no preseason or practice...

 

The defense hasn't played well, Brodie looks slower this year. Giordano isn't moving the puck as quick as he normally does. Some of this might be on the coach, but those players are players that we're considered for team Canada, they aren't playing like those players right now, they need to step up. Questioning the mixing if the pairings is fair, but why stick with pairings that aren't working, why not mix things up till you find something that does work.

There is definitely something going on with D. Heard a report it is the absence of Russell  not sure if he was that much an effect on our whole D.

 

 

9 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

It takes about 15-20 games for coaches to implement a new system. Probably longer when you going from an archaic system Hartley was using, add in the fact that Gaudreau and Monahan missed training camp and you have a first line that are going into the season not knowing the new system. I agree though the time is over for this excuse and those players need to start playing.

 

Most teams use optional skates the morning of games or the day of travel, this is nothing new or out of the ordinary, so I don't get the issue with this.

 

[DirtyDeeds]

10 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Can someone please change the title to Who is to Blame or Who's to Blame, my OCD is kicking into overdrive every time I respond on this thread.

Original Poster or Mods can change a title.

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

The rebuild is mostly done. I expect them to do better(quite a bit better) than last season. They aren't....... This is just another excuse Cross "young team in rebuild" 

 

Our core is pretty much set. They were given many quality upgrades(Brouwer, Hamilton, Versteeg for example)  that should be showing better performance that what we are getting. I included Hamilton because he should fit your learning to win comment yet has not shown much improvement.

 

As for the unfair expectations.. not at all... This is just a hindsight excuse.

 

Rebuild might be done on paper, but done on paper and done on the ice are 2 very different things. Again, need to learn how to win and that's a problem Calgary has. 

 

Seems a bit funny to say after 17 games that they can't be better than last season and then blame all that on the coach but again to each his own i guess. I dont' view it as an excuse at all as pretty much all teams struggle on their way out of a rebuild. Rebuilds get ugly when you are trying to move forward and thats where the Flames are right now. They are trending in the right direction. 

 

[JTech780]

10 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

So he did not play in a system in the Worlds?  Seems he picked up that system easily with little to no preseason or practice...

There is definitely something going on with D. Heard a report it is the absence of Russell  not sure if he was that much an effect on our whole D.

 

 

 

 

I will be honest I didn't watch the World's, but I am guessing in a short tournament like that, that you out together a very basic system, and for the most part with that much talent you just the young guys go offensively.

With Calgary the system is going to be much more intricate, and you are going to see certain systems in play in all 3 zones as opposed to 1 or 2 zones at the World's.

[cross16]

Team NA played a pretty similar style to what Hartley did last year. Push the pace offensivly and go for the stretch pass/outlet pass and get scoring chances off the rush. Obviously that suits Gaudreau more and he was famailar with it so it was eaiser to grasp. that is not a style that is likely going to win consistanlty in the NHL as we've seen the last few years, need to defend.  However, I have noticied Gulutzan has started to increase Gaudreau's freedom within the system and you are starting to see Gaudreau be allowed to cheat a little coming out of the zone, or trying to re enter the zone.

 

The Flames needed to rebuild a foundation sort to speak. Hartley did a good job of putting in a system that suit what he had at the time but it lacked alot of the concepts you need to win consistantly in the NHL. You need to defend, you need to be able to lock it down and you need to udnerstand how to defend as a team and to do that you need to really prioritize little details. Case in point, Gaudreau turned the puck over in his own zone last night, but instantly reacted and boxed the guy out so the scoring chance came from a low danger zone as opposed to a grade A chance. Those are plays he was not making under Hartley becuase he was being allowed freedom to push forward and really only push forwrad. That type of hockey won't win you games consistantly.

 

I know everyone hates the word, but it is a process. Obviously you can question if Gulutzan is the right guy to lead that process and that's fine but IMO the Flames HAD to go this route. Defense wins championships, always has and always will. 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Team NA played a pretty similar style to what Hartley did last year. Push the pace offensivly and go for the stretch pass/outlet pass and get scoring chances off the rush. Obviously that suits Gaudreau more and he was famailar with it so it was eaiser to grasp. that is not a style that is likely going to win consistanlty in the NHL as we've seen the last few years, need to defend.  However, I have noticied Gulutzan has started to increase Gaudreau's freedom within the system and you are starting to see Gaudreau be allowed to cheat a little coming out of the zone, or trying to re enter the zone.

 

The Flames needed to rebuild a foundation sort to speak. Hartley did a good job of putting in a system that suit what he had at the time but it lacked alot of the concepts you need to win consistantly in the NHL. You need to defend, you need to be able to lock it down and you need to udnerstand how to defend as a team and to do that you need to really prioritize little details. Case in point, Gaudreau turned the puck over in his own zone last night, but instantly reacted and boxed the guy out so the scoring chance came from a low danger zone as opposed to a grade A chance. Those are plays he was not making under Hartley becuase he was being allowed freedom to push forward and really only push forwrad. That type of hockey won't win you games consistantly.

 

I know everyone hates the word, but it is a process. Obviously you can question if Gulutzan is the right guy to lead that process and that's fine but IMO the Flames HAD to go this route. Defense wins championships, always has and always will. 

Not to mention, one has to take into account they are running into defensive systems being applied against us and specifically against our main players.

[Cowtownguy]

9 hours ago, MAC331 said:

If any of you watched Elliott and the Blues in the playoffs last year, he was the one hanging that team in there not their allstar defensemen. Trading for Elliott was a brilliant move. Everyone fights their confidence at times when your team is losing or if as an individual you are not scoring or performing to your own expectations, that is life. It is third group of individuals that have to turn their fortunes around in a positive way. Last night's game was a good start.

Kipper?

[conundrumed]

4 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Can someone please change the title to Who is to Blame or Who's to Blame, my OCD is kicking into overdrive every time I respond on this thread.

[MAC331]

22 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Kipper?

Kipper what ? you don't think he ever fought his confidence. I'm sure he did but he was able to bounce back better than most for sure.

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

Team NA played a pretty similar style to what Hartley did last year. Push the pace offensivly and go for the stretch pass/outlet pass and get scoring chances off the rush. Obviously that suits Gaudreau more and he was famailar with it so it was eaiser to grasp. that is not a style that is likely going to win consistanlty in the NHL as we've seen the last few years, need to defend.  However, I have noticied Gulutzan has started to increase Gaudreau's freedom within the system and you are starting to see Gaudreau be allowed to cheat a little coming out of the zone, or trying to re enter the zone.

 

The Flames needed to rebuild a foundation sort to speak. Hartley did a good job of putting in a system that suit what he had at the time but it lacked alot of the concepts you need to win consistantly in the NHL. You need to defend, you need to be able to lock it down and you need to udnerstand how to defend as a team and to do that you need to really prioritize little details. Case in point, Gaudreau turned the puck over in his own zone last night, but instantly reacted and boxed the guy out so the scoring chance came from a low danger zone as opposed to a grade A chance. Those are plays he was not making under Hartley becuase he was being allowed freedom to push forward and really only push forwrad. That type of hockey won't win you games consistantly.

 

I know everyone hates the word, but it is a process. Obviously you can question if Gulutzan is the right guy to lead that process and that's fine but IMO the Flames HAD to go this route. Defense wins championships, always has and always will. 

 

Sounds like the Oilers system that McLellan has used in the last two years.  Russell was the only thing that helped them early in the season.  Well, that and McDavid's scoring.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sounds like the Oilers system that McLellan has used in the last two years.  Russell was the only thing that helped them early in the season.  Well, that and McDavid's scoring.  

Mcdavids scoring and talbot standing on his head, now they have lost 4 straight, not looking great losing.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Mcdavids scoring and talbot standing on his head, now they have lost 4 straight, not looking great losing.

 

I'm not trying to pump up Russell, but he forced a lot of the shots to the outside.  Talbot faced a lot of shots, but not as many were high danger.

[AlbertaBoy12]

17 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm not trying to pump up Russell, but he forced a lot of the shots to the outside.  Talbot faced a lot of shots, but not as many were high danger.

I was actually impressed with russell to start the season watching him, you have got that right.

[Cowtownguy]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Kipper what ? you don't think he ever fought his confidence. I'm sure he did but he was able to bounce back better than most for sure.

Kipper rarely, if ever, had losing streaks and I certainly cannot think of him ever struggling with confidence issues like Elliott does. As I mentioned earlier above, I think Elliott was a great acquisition. Given that there were few solid goalies out there, it was particularly good given the dollars involved. Having said that, he does have ongoing confidence issues and that was something the Blues were aware of for years. I think that confidence is part of what separates the good goalies from the great goalies.

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Rebuild might be done on paper, but done on paper and done on the ice are 2 very different things. Again, need to learn how to win and that's a problem Calgary has. 

 

Seems a bit funny to say after 17 games that they can't be better than last season and then blame all that on the coach but again to each his own i guess. I dont' view it as an excuse at all as pretty much all teams struggle on their way out of a rebuild. Rebuilds get ugly when you are trying to move forward and thats where the Flames are right now. They are trending in the right direction. 

 

 

Cross, you have more optimism for this team than I do for washed up undrafted prospects, and about the same level of justification

 

It's admirable.

 

So, we've had this conversation in the preseason, and you correctly shot it down as premature.

 

We had the conversation again 3 games in, and agreed to let it rest until we were 10 games in.

 

Now we're at 17, and you're starting to get conversational, but still hinting that it's early to make sweeping statements.

 

When, in your opinion, do you start looking at the coach and the GM, etc?  Call it however you like, find whatever way you want to measure improvement, there comes a point where it's inevitable, and we all know it.

 

20 games?  30? 40?  80?   300?

 

IMHO,  40 games in, the owners start thinking.

 

If home attendance starts dropping below 17,000.... then Nobody is safe.   But we're a long ways from that:

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

[AlbertaBoy12]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Cross, you have more optimism for this team than I do for washed up undrafted prospects, and about the same level of justification

 

It's admirable.

 

So, we've had this conversation in the preseason, and you correctly shot it down as premature.

 

We had the conversation again 3 games in, and agreed to let it rest until we were 10 games in.

 

Now we're at 17, and you're starting to get conversational, but still hinting that it's early to make sweeping statements.

 

When, in your opinion, do you start looking at the coach and the GM, etc?  Call it however you like, find whatever way you want to measure improvement, there comes a point where it's inevitable, and we all know it.

 

20 games?  30? 40?  80?   300?

 

IMHO,  40 games in, the owners start thinking.

 

If home attendance starts dropping below 17,000.... then Nobody is safe.   But we're a long ways from that:

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

So what's your opinion of the flames the past two games? Are these flukes?

[cccsberg]

On 2016-11-14 at 4:05 PM, The_People1 said:

 

I would support a change to AV today if he was available.  So, short of that, no.

How about Krueger?

[MAC331]

12 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

Kipper rarely, if ever, had losing streaks and I certainly cannot think of him ever struggling with confidence issues like Elliott does. As I mentioned earlier above, I think Elliott was a great acquisition. Given that there were few solid goalies out there, it was particularly good given the dollars involved. Having said that, he does have ongoing confidence issues and that was something the Blues were aware of for years. I think that confidence is part of what separates the good goalies from the great goalies.

Could be and perhaps GG has to use both Goalies the way STL did. Johnson has stepped up big time these last two games which tells me we have a potentially very good tandem.

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

How about Krueger?

I took in the game last night and I agree with everyone GG and staff have some work to do yet however I think BT has some real serious work to consider. The intelligence level of some player either has to be improved or exchanged. Let me start with the most obvious Chiasson and Vey are not NHL caliber players. Hamilton and Bennett are not very smart players and by this they don't read the ice very well and what is happening around them well at all.

JTech mentioned in another thread a possible trade of Hamilton + for Hamonic NYI and Strome, if there is willingness I would do that deal ASAP. Hamonic is way more responsible in his full duties than Hamilton ever will be. The add for us could be Mangiapane perhaps but I would do it.

GG is definitely doing right by Tkachuk having him play with Backlund and Frolik, he will learn how to play the game in the right way from these two.

This brings me to Bennett, he seems lots with his efforts no matter where you put him. He certainly isn't a player I would want to be depending on any time soon. He needs to be on a limited shift 3rd line with Ferland and Versteeg who has the experience to help both these players be better.

I don't know what's going on with Bouma but a 4th line of Bouma, Stajan and Hathaway would be fine. If Bouma is out BT needs to get a 4th line LW type and not waste Ferland there.

Wideman, what else needs to be said about Wideman, he is a liability every time he steps on the ice. If we were to trade Hamilton for Hamonic it only fixes one hole with a better player.

If only BT could swing a deal for both Hamonic and Strome, this would possibly set this team up in a good way for the future.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Strome

Tkachuk, Backlund, Frolik

Ferland, Bennett, Brouwer

Bouma, Stajan, Versteeg

spare Hathaway

Giordano, Brodie

Jokipakka, Hamonic

Kulak, Engelland

spare Wideman

Elliott, Johnson

I sure like the looks of this for the balance of the season and going forward.