Who's to Blame?

[conundrumed]

We're 1 pt ahead of 30th in the league. And we've played more games...

We thought we had a core. We thought we improved our front end and coaching.

We're a month out of camp excuses, a month into new player adjustment.

Yet we are losing more than we win and look bad doing it.

We're one hot mess.

Whose to blame and why?

[The_People1]

20 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

look bad doing it.

 

You nailed it man. It's not that we are losing. It's that we are looking like we don't even belong in this league.

 

Our best players have been Backlund, Frolik, Stajan, Brouwer, and Engellend.  Honorable mention goes out to Tkachuk, Versteeg, and Ferland. That's it, everyone else lacks consistency and have been prone to horrible giveaways and bone headed plays.

 

We look so hopeless and discourage out there but at the same time, we went on a 4 game streak where we were dominant against the likes of Chicago and St.Louis. So we are certainly capable of playin extremely well.  And now, it's like our players don't want to play for the coach or something.  

[conundrumed]

Cheers man,

Chances are better better than average we aren't beating them anymore.

Time for an 8 game winning streak.

Be a team...

[CBTC-FLAMES-EDITION]

I doubt you'll find many around here who could answer that question. . I agree many players have played well this year. It was great to see Stajan get pissed off last game and cause some trouble after he has played well all season. It shows he cares and is angry. I don't want cheap shots, just cause some issues. Makes me long for the days of Nieminen or the teams of the late 80's and early 90's. You might beat us but you are going to be sore in the morning. I said something  earlier in the season; bring up Hathaway, Bollig and Smith (doesn't matter who plays centre because we don't want them getting the puck anyways), and let them go out and hit people. We are so easy to play against teams have no fear and it shows every game. If we aren't fast enough or big enough, all I see that's left is tough enough. People can and will disagree with me here but the highlights I remember from this season so far are the times we showed passion and anger. I include guys like Stajan, Ferland, Engelland and Tkachuk in this mix. I'd even include Backlund, Frolik and a few others and even Gaudreau at times. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

If this teams turn it around this season or next season, is anyone to blame? or do you chalk it up as a learning experience?

[conundrumed]

14 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

If this teams turn it around this season or next season, is anyone to blame? or do you chalk it up as a learning experience?

"If" being the wonder.

8 yr rebuild?

[AlbertaBoy12]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

"If" being the wonder.

8 yr rebuild?

Lets be honest, do we really think this is a system thing? I am more inclined to believe that a few of our top guys are having a rough start to the season and they will turn it around. I really cant believe that mony, gaudreau, brodie, gio, hamilton etc have all forgot how to play hockey, or the league has found them out of all sudden.

 

I wanna believe no one is to blame, this team just needs some confidence and the wins will start coming. If this team finishes 30th, I dont know if BT or GG lose their jobs, or if ownership gives them another season.

[jjgallow]

20 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

If this teams turn it around this season or next season, is anyone to blame? or do you chalk it up as a learning experience?

 

Yes they are, because, this is basically Year Two of this performance level.  A continuation from last season.

 

This was responded to by what is, rightly or wrongly, the Prototypical amateur solution proven to basically never work in real life:

 

Fire the coach and get new goalies.

 

Someone will be to blame, and it will likely be the someone who made that call.

[AlbertaBoy12]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

Yes they are, because, this is basically Year Two of this performance level.  A continuation from last season.

 

This was responded to by what is, rightly or wrongly, the Prototypical amateur solution proven to basically never work in real life:

 

Fire the coach and get new goalies.

 

Someone will be to blame, and it will likely be the someone who made that call.

I dont know if the results really are the same though, the eye test tells me the flames have been playing better 5 on 5, with a couple mistakes sinking this team.

 

Alot of the counting stats, minus the wins/losses back that up, the only problem I can see right now is the flames make a mistake it ends up in the back of our net and the wind is out of the sails. That to me is a team lacking confidence, and I dont think the goalies are the problem or the coach.

[conundrumed]

2 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Lets be honest, do we really think this is a system thing? I am more inclined to believe that a few of our top guys are having a rough start to the season and they will turn it around. I really cant believe that mony, gaudreau, brodie, gio, hamilton etc have all forgot how to play hockey, or the league has found them out of all sudden.

 

I wanna believe no one is to blame, this team just needs some confidence and the wins will start coming. If this team finishes 30th, I dont know if BT or GG lose their jobs, or if ownership gives them another season.

That's my hideous giant hairy eyeball on coaching.

How is everyone just bad all at once?

[Jarome_Iginla12]

There is some many things that are wrong with this team. 

 

Who is to blame? (in no particular order)

- Brad (he put the team together)

-Glen (looks like the team has tuned him out)

-Burke (he hire Brad)

-the players (they are not performing)

 

Watching this team right now is very frustrating and something needs to give. Time to either make a trade or fire the coaching staff

[robrob74]

For me, the 5 on 5, we might have the puck, but I don't get excited thinking we're going to score. I don't see us in good enough spots to make plays and get goals. Sure we have the puck, that's what you want, I get that, but the other teams are just content with keeping us away from scoring areas and then take it to us when they get the puck. So, for me, sure they have to puck, but I still don't feel like they're getting the chances to score. 

 

The fancy stats say we are better, but I just don't see it. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

If this teams turn it around this season or next season, is anyone to blame? or do you chalk it up as a learning experience?

 

i get what you are saying.  It's early, still.  Sometimes a team has to learn to lose together before they can win together.  But we have been trending down for two years now and that's not a good sign.  If we miss the playoffs by a mile this year, then someone has to be blamed.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

i get what you are saying.  It's early, still.  Sometimes a team has to learn to lose together before they can win together.  But we have been trending down for two years now and that's not a good sign.  If we miss the playoffs by a mile this year, then someone has to be blamed.

 

I don't know, that playoff year has really set us back by a lot. Mostly because I think it set the bar too high. I think we're where we were supposed to be that year and the year after. I know we got some decent players, but we are still far from the finished product. I think Tkachuk should have been sent back, only because I don't like how the team is trending this year. Albeit, how do you send a kid who has been trying the most and has been better than your 6m dollar men? I think Bennett should have taken a year in the AHL to develop as a C last year. Sure he is an NHL player, but to develop him as a C is more important. I think we botched that one. The book is still out, but I think we're pulling an Oiler's playbook rebuild and rushing our players in too fast into roles that are too high for their age level and maturity.

[conundrumed]

What really makes it fun double rob is suggesting Bennett LW, like BH got fired for, understanding development.

He isn't an NHL center right now, but we suck bad enough to force it...

[The_People1]

10 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I don't know, that playoff year has really set us back by a lot. Mostly because I think it set the bar too high. I think we're where we were supposed to be that year and the year after. I know we got some decent players, but we are still far from the finished product. I think Tkachuk should have been sent back, only because I don't like how the team is trending this year. Albeit, how do you send a kid who has been trying the most and has been better than your 6m dollar men? I think Bennett should have taken a year in the AHL to develop as a C last year. Sure he is an NHL player, but to develop him as a C is more important. I think we botched that one. The book is still out, but I think we're pulling an Oiler's playbook rebuild and rushing our players in too fast into roles that are too high for their age level and maturity.

 

Well, what set up back is not drafting Ekblad, McDavid, and Matthews.

 

But whatever.  We are where we are.  A few of us saw this year as a transition year because we are going to lose Wideman, Engellend, and our goaltenders, which should let us be more cap friendly moving forward.  They are probably right.  We weren't really legit playoff contenders this season, and especially not Cup contenders.  Next year though, there will be no excuses but if i was BT, i would trade Giordano before he trends further down.  If we are going to miss the playoffs with him as captain, then i'm sure we can miss the playoffs without him.  I said the same about Iginla in his last few years here with us.

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

What really makes it fun double rob is suggesting Bennett LW, like BH got fired for, understanding development.

He isn't an NHL center right now, but we suck bad enough to force it...

 

Yup, I think so too. I'd even see about playing him in the AHL right now because I'd like him to have some success as a center right now. I think it would be better in the long run for his development. 

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

What really makes it fun double rob is suggesting Bennett LW, like BH got fired for, understanding development.

He isn't an NHL center right now, but we suck bad enough to force it...

 

I really don't get why Hartley won the Jack Adams trophy with a "never given, always earned" mantra and then he goes 180 the year after and gets himself fired.  I think he was a very fair coach who pushed his players hard but rewarded them justly.  For some reason, he altered his reward system and as a result, his tactics fell on deaf ears afterwards.  We need a coach who will push our players hard but will also be fair all the time... oh, and better X's and O's than Hartley of course.

 

We just played the Rangers and I think Alain Vigneault is still one of the best coaches in the NHL when it comes to connecting with his players.  Wish we had him or someone in his mold.

[robrob74]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well, what set up back is not drafting Ekblad, McDavid, and Matthews.

 

But whatever.  We are where we are.  A few of us saw this year as a transition year because we are going to lose Wideman, Engellend, and our goaltenders, which should let us be more cap friendly moving forward.  They are probably right.  We weren't really legit playoff contenders this season, and especially not Cup contenders.  Next year though, there will be no excuses but if i was BT, i would trade Giordano before he trends further down.  If we are going to miss the playoffs with him as captain, then i'm sure we can miss the playoffs without him.  I said the same about Iginla in his last few years here with us.

 

Ya, I was one of those who thought that this was going to be a down year. A lot said that we were only 5 wins out of a wildcard and the new goaltending alone should catapult us into a spot. I agree, we could have gotten a few higher end players. The Leafs seemed to do it right. They played Nylander and Co. an extra year or two in Jr or the minors. They finally did something right. And they ended up with Matthews in the process. 

 

A part of me wants to send Bennett to the AHL just to start grooming him into a C the right way. I think he is still one of our best competitors, but he could use some time with success in the AHL as a full time C and get his scoring touch back.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I really don't get why Hartley won the Jack Adams trophy with a "never given, always earned" mantra and then he goes 180 the year after and gets himself fired.  I think he was a very fair coach who pushed his players hard but rewarded them justly.  For some reason, he altered his reward system and as a result, his tactics fell on deaf ears afterwards.  We need a coach who will push our players hard but will also be fair all the time... oh, and better X's and O's than Hartley of course.

 

We just played the Rangers and I think Alain Vigneault is still one of the best coaches in the NHL when it comes to connecting with his players.  Wish we had him or someone in his mold.

 

I think Mods and Admins should get likes. I like this... He definitely groomed a young Canucks team into a force for a number of years. And the Rangers have always looked strong with him, for the most part. 

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I really don't get why Hartley won the Jack Adams trophy with a "never given, always earned" mantra and then he goes 180 the year after and gets himself fired.  I think he was a very fair coach who pushed his players hard but rewarded them justly.  For some reason, he altered his reward system and as a result, his tactics fell on deaf ears afterwards.  We need a coach who will push our players hard but will also be fair all the time... oh, and better X's and O's than Hartley of course.

 

We just played the Rangers and I think Alain Vigneault is still one of the best coaches in the NHL when it comes to connecting with his players.  Wish we had him or someone in his mold.

So you support a coaching change, already?

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Yes they are, because, this is basically Year Two of this performance level.  A continuation from last season.

 

This was responded to by what is, rightly or wrongly, the Prototypical amateur solution proven to basically never work in real life:

 

Fire the coach and get new goalies.

 

Someone will be to blame, and it will likely be the someone who made that call.

 

Let's look at the alternatives available after last year:

 

Keep the coach - four years with one winning season, and that was based as much on luck as anything sustainable.  He hadn't adjusted to team's learning the Flames' tendencies.  He still preached "earned not given", but rewarded players that hadn't earned it.  The only benefit to keeping him is that we would be more familiar with the systems that were not working.

 

Keep the goalies - Ramo finally started practicing this season.  There is no way to predict if he can regain any form of NHL form.  How much would it have cost to re-sign him to possibly play in November?  Likely more than available alternatives on the open market.  Hiller was bad in every way possible.  When Ramo pulled it together, Hiller was still bad.  Ortio did not inspire enough confidence to be a NHL starting goalie.  He's done in the league for now and possibly the future.  Move on.

 

You can call the choices BT made as amateur, but they were decisions most GM's would have made.

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

I see this team turning it around at the halfway point of the season, then missing the playoffs. Gio or hamilton might be traded if kulak continues his growth thoughout this season, more then likely Gio depending on the return. With the flames having a crap ton of cap space going into next summer are able to take a run at a couple big name players changing the dynamic of our team(although most those players are RFA's so who knows how that will go). After a year of learning, and with the team dynamic heading in a different direction GG leads the flames to the promised land.

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Ya, I was one of those who thought that this was going to be a down year. A lot said that we were only 5 wins out of a wildcard and the new goaltending alone should catapult us into a spot. I agree, we could have gotten a few higher end players. The Leafs seemed to do it right. They played Nylander and Co. an extra year or two in Jr or the minors. They finally did something right. And they ended up with Matthews in the process. 

 

A part of me wants to send Bennett to the AHL just to start grooming him into a C the right way. I think he is still one of our best competitors, but he could use some time with success in the AHL as a full time C and get his scoring touch back.

To late for this, they need to push on with experienced wingers on either side of Bennett. He will be better for it later. Fans have to learn to accept these types of seasons as a sacrifice, they are not fun but sometimes necessary.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Let's look at the alternatives available after last year:

 

......long explanation of doing nothing

 

You can call the choices BT made as amateur, but they were decisions most GM's would have made.

 

 

So, I summarized that for you.   Yes, I agree, doing nothing would have also been a bad choice.

 

But there is simply no way that most GMs would have done what BT did.  Sorry.   We've had hundreds of pages of discussion on all the things they could have done, and your response was always to trust the experts and give this a chance.  So here we are.

 

I'll do you a favor TD, because I don't think you can win this one.  I'll go on a long conspiracy theory rant, which will be easier for you to pick apart, and distract us all from the real issues

 

here goes:

 

Look, our owners are well connected business men.   They hired a well connected business man's son, who NO NHL TEAM had Ever allowed to be their main GM.  None.  His experience for the position consists of being born into money and having the ability to start up his own hockey leagues, which folded, as well as being Allowed to work Under actual GMs.

 

He then thinks....experience is not necessary (because it never was for him), and hires a head coach without Any successful* NHL Head Coach experience.

 

Then he proceeds to make bone-headed Short-Term moves when we're supposed to be in the middle of a rebuild (we can call them that now), as if he was 6 months away from retirement and needed to throw a hail marry.

 

Wait a minute....Or did he?    Or Was that Burke?  That sounds a lot like Burke.

 

Wait a minute.... No other NHL team has ever Actually let BT take the reigns.   We did, but under the watch of Burke.  So...Did we really?

 

IMHO, this should fall on BT, with their structure.   But it won't.  It can't.   There's just too many business connections.   Don't be surprised if Burke takes the fall for this in the end (within a year).  And, if he does, he Probably deserves it because he is Self-Admittedly hasty for success given his age and nearness to retirement.  I am not sure he was ever a good fit for a rebuild, and if it comes down to that, he won't be able to blame Hazel May this time.

 

Don't be surprised if BT stays, but they put another Experienced GM above him as oversight, and give him a fancy title.

 

 

You're welcome