What Is Best For Matthew Tkachuk

[GM_3300]

Trade Backlund and Frolik as a pair to NYR.

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, GM_3300 said:

Trade Backlund and Frolik as a pair to NYR.

 

They have about $1m in cap, so we would need to take back almost equal in salary.

 

On another note, Flamesnation has a decent article on the impact of signing Tkachuk after the season starts and how the cap hit is high in season one.

DATE	DAY	AVERAGE SALARY	2019-20 HIT	REST OF DEAL
OCT. 1	0	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$8,000,000
OCT. 6	5	$8,000,000	$8,176,796	$7,956,989
OCT. 11	10	$8,000,000	$8,363,636	$7,913,978
OCT. 16	15	$8,000,000	$8,561,404	$7,870,968
OCT. 31	30	$8,000,000	$9,230,769	$7,741,935
NOV. 20	50	$8,000,000	$10,352,941	$7,569,892
DEC. 1	61	$8,000,000	$11,123,200	$7,475,269

 

 

Nylander was in this boat.  I hope whatever happens is done before the season starts.

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, kehatch said:

The threat of offer sheets is going to become more real once the season starts. 

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/

 

Less real than July 1st because only 6 teams at the moment have more than $8-mil cap space remaining.  

 

Tampa Bay

Anaheim

Columbus

Ottawa

Winnipeg

Colorado

 

Of these teams, you can scratch off Tampa Bay (Point), Winnipeg (Connor+Laine), and maybe Colorado (Rantanen) yet to be signed.

 

That leaves only Anaheim, Columbus, and Ottawa with Anaheim and Ottawa more than likely wanting to keep their 1st round picks during their rebuild/retool.  Columbus does not own their own 2nd and 3rd round pick this year so they probably cannot offer sheet anyone.  Colorado also doesn't own their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year.

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/

 

Less real than July 1st because only 6 teams at the moment have more than $8-mil cap space remaining.  

 

Tampa Bay

Anaheim

Columbus

Ottawa

Winnipeg

Colorado

 

Of these teams, you can scratch off Tampa Bay (Point), Winnipeg (Connor+Laine), and maybe Colorado (Rantanen) yet to be signed.

 

That leaves only Anaheim, Columbus, and Ottawa with Anaheim and Ottawa more than likely wanting to keep their 1st round picks during their rebuild/retool.  Columbus does not own their own 2nd and 3rd round pick this year so they probably cannot offer sheet anyone.  Colorado also doesn't own their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year.

 

For the big name players, an OS that results in 4 x 1st is the only one they would be likely to sign.

COL can match any offer.

Point and Tkachuk are the least likely to sign one, unless it's one like the Aho deal that benefits the team (CGY or TBL) and player.

Marner can sit out most of the fall and still make a bunch of money.

Harder to fit in the cap this year, the longer it goes.

 

The OS rumors are click-bait threats.

 

[The_People1]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

For the big name players, an OS that results in 4 x 1st is the only one they would be likely to sign.

 

Ya honestly if OTT gives us four 1st round picks for Tkachuk, then we take the picks.  OTT going to draft top 5 for the next 3 years.

[bosn111]

While I like Tkachuk and believe that he will be a great player in the league for many years, I agree that if you have the choice of Tkachuk at over 10 million a season or 4 straight top 10 likely draft picks due to an offer sheet, you take the draft picks and save the cap space. While some of what he brings is difficult to replace (pest), there are numerous other players with offensive skills just looking for a shot at the big club or at least more offensive responsibility. I simply have trouble considering anyone in the NHL to deserve getting more than 15 times the league minimum in salary. Hockey is a team game and better to build a solid, consistent team with a group of good players than have 1 great player and a bunch of mediocre ones. Players need to start seeing that and accept that they need to have good supporting players around them so leave money on the table to get them that help.

[kehatch]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/

 

Less real than July 1st because only 6 teams at the moment have more than $8-mil cap space remaining.  

 

Tampa Bay

Anaheim

Columbus

Ottawa

Winnipeg

Colorado

 

Of these teams, you can scratch off Tampa Bay (Point), Winnipeg (Connor+Laine), and maybe Colorado (Rantanen) yet to be signed.

 

That leaves only Anaheim, Columbus, and Ottawa with Anaheim and Ottawa more than likely wanting to keep their 1st round picks during their rebuild/retool.  Columbus does not own their own 2nd and 3rd round pick this year so they probably cannot offer sheet anyone.  Colorado also doesn't own their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year.

 

I don't think the threat is ever that real. But an offer sheet once the season starts doesn't give the GM the chance to dump salary. 

[tmac70]

 Players can get greedy, and if I am not mistaken this was Flyer Fans( may he rest in peace) big concern with the player. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree apparently. So much like Panarin this defines the true character of the individual, money before team.  Players have to much power, give him a time line than let him sit, as a franchise you can not be held hostage by greedy players. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, bosn111 said:

While I like Tkachuk and believe that he will be a great player in the league for many years, I agree that if you have the choice of Tkachuk at over 10 million a season or 4 straight top 10 likely draft picks due to an offer sheet, you take the draft picks and save the cap space. While some of what he brings is difficult to replace (pest), there are numerous other players with offensive skills just looking for a shot at the big club or at least more offensive responsibility. I simply have trouble considering anyone in the NHL to deserve getting more than 15 times the league minimum in salary. Hockey is a team game and better to build a solid, consistent team with a group of good players than have 1 great player and a bunch of mediocre ones. Players need to start seeing that and accept that they need to have good supporting players around them so leave money on the table to get them that help.

 

26 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

 Players can get greedy, and if I am not mistaken this was Flyer Fans( may he rest in peace) big concern with the player. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree apparently. So much like Panarin this defines the true character of the individual, money before team.  Players have to much power, give him a time line than let him sit, as a franchise you can not be held hostage by greedy players. 

 

I tend to think the cap fixes the problems you guys are concerned about.  Look at capfriendly and look at how many teams can actually fit one more stud RFA at $10-mil-per.  Almost none.  Next year's crop of RFA is going to have it tough because there's not much more money to go around.  It will also be increasing difficult to dump at $5-mil guy for picks because like Frolik, teams can't take on more salary without giving some back.  

[travel_dude]

48 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

 Players can get greedy, and if I am not mistaken this was Flyer Fans( may he rest in peace) big concern with the player. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree apparently. So much like Panarin this defines the true character of the individual, money before team.  Players have to much power, give him a time line than let him sit, as a franchise you can not be held hostage by greedy players. 

 

Pretty sweeping statement for a player whose demands and salary offers have not been publicized.

What is BT offering and for how long.

What is Tkachuk's last demand?

Has Tkachuk decided to train in another country or sign a deal for another league?

[cross16]

33 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

I tend to think the cap fixes the problems you guys are concerned about.  Look at capfriendly and look at how many teams can actually fit one more stud RFA at $10-mil-per.  Almost none.  Next year's crop of RFA is going to have it tough because there's not much more money to go around.  It will also be increasing difficult to dump at $5-mil guy for picks because like Frolik, teams can't take on more salary without giving some back.  

 

Agreed. It's a fixed cap so i don't really understand the argument that these RFAs are going to screw up the balance. they are changing the perceived norm, but that's all it is. 

 

I also don't like the "greedy" player argument. These guys have short careers, work their tails off, put their body/health and future on the line and still receive only 50% of what the league generates completely off their backs and their labor. They deserve to argue for their fair share. 

[cccsberg]

50 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Agreed. It's a fixed cap so i don't really understand the argument that these RFAs are going to screw up the balance. they are changing the perceived norm, but that's all it is. 

 

I also don't like the "greedy" player argument. These guys have short careers, work their tails off, put their body/health and future on the line and still receive only 50% of what the league generates completely off their backs and their labor. They deserve to argue for their fair share. 

Because of the Cap Tkachuk is just taking money from his teammates, as the owners spend the full Cap anyways.  Don't buy the argument about everything earned by the p[layers.... every business is that way, nothing special.  If these guys don't want to play there are probably thousands of other guys willing to take their place.  If that happens the league still goes on, competitive, just at a lower skill level.  Look at the CFL as an example.  They don't make millions but it is fun, competitive and actually an even more exciting product than the NFL.  If Tkachuk holds out it is going to cost the Flames a couple more players for the privilege of seeing him.  Not sure it is worth it.

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Because of the Cap Tkachuk is just taking money from his teammates, as the owners spend the full Cap anyways.  Don't buy the argument about everything earned by the p[layers.... every business is that way, nothing special.  If these guys don't want to play there are probably thousands of other guys willing to take their place.  If that happens the league still goes on, competitive, just at a lower skill level.  Look at the CFL as an example.  They don't make millions but it is fun, competitive and actually an even more exciting product than the NFL.  If Tkachuk holds out it is going to cost the Flames a couple more players for the privilege of seeing him.  Not sure it is worth it.

 

In a perfect world maybe but in reality a lower skill level = less competition= a lower quality product= less fans and therefore less money to pay players. so yes look at the CFL as a example, a league that has an attendance problem, a revenue problem, and multiple clubs either for sale or in rough financial situations.  I see many more #19 jerseys than I do #88s or #27s so I also don't buy the argument he is just "taking from his teammates". Tkachuk drives more revenue than most of his teammates so therefore has earned the right to argue for his fair share which IMO he's doing.  If you want to go back to your CFL example, Bo Levi Mitchell gets paid significantly more than the avg CFLer and the escalation of QB salaries in that league has led to multiple issues for the lesser known players. You would also be pretty hard pressed to find many people that will agree it's a more exciting product than the NFL these days. 

 

This is a philosophical debate so I don't expect anyone's mind to change I just don't like calling players greedy. I've argued for raises for myself in the past and I didn't consider myself greedy so not sure why players should fall into this category too. 

[bosn111]

I know some people have used the term "greedy". I have tried to avoid using the term specifically. Instead I tried to show reasons why players should accept lower salaries. I am not saying the player should necessarily play for league minimum as an all-star, but instead realize that if they get 6 million instead of 10 million, the team can get them a 5 million player to partner with instead of a 1 million player. This makes the team that much better. The players themselves are likely to do better with the better quality teammate and the team as a whole will likely do better.

 

We have examples of playing huge money to 1 or 2 big names and not having much to spread on anyone else so the team quality is far lower (Oilers, They only have 4 over 5 mil 2 of whom are 8.5 or higher). Compare that to Boston who pay 7.25 mil as their highest salary but have 7 guys over 5 mil. Last season the Flames won the division with only  5 guys over 5 mil and NONE over 7. Washington has 8 over 5 mil and 2 over 7. Tampa has 7 over 5 and 3 over 7. Pens have 6 over 5 and 3 over 7. Of these teams listed, only 1 has a player over 10 being McDavid in Edmonton and all of these teams are competitive fairly consistently. Toronto has 6 over 5 mil (2 on LTIR), 2 currently over 10 mil, no money to sign Marner and no real options in sight to do so. Had Tavares and Matthews both signed in the 8 mil range, saving around 4 mil, and Marner accept in the 8 mil range as well, then they would be a lot closer to icing a skilled team again. Instead after Matthews, Tavares and Nylander up front currently, you drop to Kerfoot., Kapanen and Johnsson (Not bad players, but not top line skill either).

 

The point is, that players who truly want to win need to realize that in a cap world, maxing your own money is not the best chance of success, this isn't the Rangers of the 90s anymore. With limited money to be spent, to get quality line mates, you need to leave some money on the table for them as well or you are left like McDavid trying to carry a weak team on your back. When Johnny and Mony signed, I think they both realized this fact. They both signed a little below value as I recall to ensure the team to bring in more quality players to compete. They have done that in the likes of Lindholm, Hanifin, Hamonic and Frolik. For a while that list had Hamilton.

 

The idea of negotiating raises is not the issue, it is negotiating unrealistic, exorbitant raises that hinders development of the team. If Tkachuk gets over 8 mil per season AAV, that means he will be getting a raise of over 400%. The average person is lucky to get a raise of 1 - 2 % including public servants. Many people complained that minimum wage in Alberta jumped up by about 50% but people are ok with athletes getting over 400% raises? That is 8 times bigger jump than minimum wage.

 

I get the whole "without the players there would be no league" concept, and I also get that they want fair share of profits going to the players compared to the owners / league, but seriously there is also the concept of "no teammates means no team". 

[conundrumed]

52 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

In a perfect world maybe but in reality a lower skill level = less competition= a lower quality product= less fans and therefore less money to pay players. so yes look at the CFL as a example, a league that has an attendance problem, a revenue problem, and multiple clubs either for sale or in rough financial situations.  I see many more #19 jerseys than I do #88s or #27s so I also don't buy the argument he is just "taking from his teammates". Tkachuk drives more revenue than most of his teammates so therefore has earned the right to argue for his fair share which IMO he's doing.  If you want to go back to your CFL example, Bo Levi Mitchell gets paid significantly more than the avg CFLer and the escalation of QB salaries in that league has led to multiple issues for the lesser known players. You would also be pretty hard pressed to find many people that will agree it's a more exciting product than the NFL these days. 

 

This is a philosophical debate so I don't expect anyone's mind to change I just don't like calling players greedy. I've argued for raises for myself in the past and I didn't consider myself greedy so not sure why players should fall into this category too. 

A lot of people seem mystified why elite pro athletes make a world of money. It's because they drive the revenue bus.

The alternative is they don't make as much, and that extra revenue goes into the pockets of billionaire owners. That's a sore spot for athletes across the entire spectrum.

No one is giving LeBron $40 mil per contract if they don't expect to STILL profit from him, for example.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

I tend to think the cap fixes the problems you guys are concerned about.  Look at capfriendly and look at how many teams can actually fit one more stud RFA at $10-mil-per.  Almost none.  Next year's crop of RFA is going to have it tough because there's not much more money to go around.  It will also be increasing difficult to dump at $5-mil guy for picks because like Frolik, teams can't take on more salary without giving some back.  

 

 

I actually don’t think this is the cap fixing itself. These are GMs shooting them selves in the foot. It is why they’re not worth this high of a salary yet. The cap isn’t at a level that allows this kind of spending behaviour. 

 

BT has horrible foresight by signing Neal. Sure the cap could’ve gone up, but the possibility was that it wasn’t going to. He painted himself into the corner on this Tkachuk deal. Now he’s gotta pay for it. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

Because of the Cap Tkachuk is just taking money from his teammates, as the owners spend the full Cap anyways.  Don't buy the argument about everything earned by the p[layers.... every business is that way, nothing special.  If these guys don't want to play there are probably thousands of other guys willing to take their place.  If that happens the league still goes on, competitive, just at a lower skill level.  Look at the CFL as an example.  They don't make millions but it is fun, competitive and actually an even more exciting product than the NFL.  If Tkachuk holds out it is going to cost the Flames a couple more players for the privilege of seeing him.  Not sure it is worth it.

 

Or, the team has too many players makng over $3m to have legit superstars earning their worth.

I don't have a problem with Frolik or Backlund or Ryan's contributions to the team, but let's face it, we can't afford them, 3 top 6 players, a top 6 star in the making (Tkachuk), Lucic nad a fairly well paid D-corps.

 

We can't afford a McDavid or Driasaitl salary for any of our top 4 players, even when they have earned it.

So, we will be forced to eat one of those $4m+ contracts somehow or scrimp elsewhere.

[cross16]

Dreger has the Leafs and Marner getting closer to an extension and apparently maybe a 6 year term, which would be a small surprise. 

 

Despite why Agent and team have said, I'm definitely of the belief that Marner is a domino. 

 

Edit: if you don't like Derger. Friedman now saying the same. Now we wait and see if the dominos fall....

 

 

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

A lot of people seem mystified why elite pro athletes make a world of money. It's because they drive the revenue bus.

The alternative is they don't make as much, and that extra revenue goes into the pockets of billionaire owners. That's a sore spot for athletes across the entire spectrum.

No one is giving LeBron $40 mil per contract if they don't expect to STILL profit from him, for example.

 

 

I can agree with it. But the problem with the NHL is that you have to maintain a 23 man roster and the money has to be spread out. 

 

We probably could have TKACHUK and Mange signed by now if they weren’t carrying buyout money, plus having to re-sign Stone. That’s due to an injury but they really should’ve only signed stone for 1M/yr in the first place instead of 3.

[robrob74]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Or, the team has too many players makng over $3m to have legit superstars earning their worth.

I don't have a problem with Frolik or Backlund or Ryan's contributions to the team, but let's face it, we can't afford them, 3 top 6 players, a top 6 star in the making (Tkachuk), Lucic nad a fairly well paid D-corps.

 

We can't afford a McDavid or Driasaitl salary for any of our top 4 players, even when they have earned it.

So, we will be forced to eat one of those $4m+ contracts somehow or scrimp elsewhere.

 

 

I think Backlund is at the right price. Frolik is now about 1m-1.5m overpriced. To me Ryan is 500k-1m overpaid. You could argue Backlund could be that much as well. 

 

My biggest beef are the buyouts, the Neal Lucic contracts, but you’re right, the bottom 6 is overpriced. 

 

It is all on BT. He has made some savvy deals but some really bonehead ones too.

[cross16]

All in all the Leafs wind up getting a pretty fair deal done here

 

 

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

All in all the Leafs wind up getting a pretty fair deal done here

 

 

 

 

10.8 per year.

 

whet does that make Tkachuk? 

 

Do we wait until the cap space is available so not to limit what we can get in a trade?

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

10.8 per year.

 

whet does that make Tkachuk? 

 

Do we wait until the cap space is available so not to limit what we can get in a trade?

 

The only thing I think it means is now neither side can wait to see what the top dog does. Marner fell where he was supposed to be, but all accounts, so Tkachuk should too.

 

I don't think this has anything to do with waiting for cap space. They have been able to sign him this whole time and not worry about that. I think this is purely about negotiating tactics. 

[Going4TheCup]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

The only thing I think it means is now neither side can wait to see what the top dog does. Marner fell where he was supposed to be, but all accounts, so Tkachuk should too.

 

I don't think this has anything to do with waiting for cap space. They have been able to sign him this whole time and not worry about that. I think this is purely about negotiating tactics. 

I think this is too and Treliving likes to save every dollar when it comes to Restricted Free Agents. Hopefully Chucky signs soon!

[cross16]

Guess we shall see....