Jyrki Jokipakka Discussion Thread

[cross16]

TD is the disrespectful one. LOL

I actually like having Engelland on the team, he plays an experienced game and sticks up for his team mates. If he stays I'm not sure Nakladal sticks around which is not a big deal.

 

Not only him its several and other forums too. 

 

I don't think the two are linked. Retianing Nakladl is much more linked to Wideman IMO becuase if they can't move Wideman they won't have either the spot or the cap space to retain Nadkladl.

 

Brodie - Hamilton

Engelland - Gio

Jokipakka - Nakladl

Smid

 

Is the D core I would be shooting for next season. I see it as Brodie-Hamilton-Gio locked in as your top 3 and then 4-6 can all rotate between Engelland, Jokipakka, Nadkladl depending on who takes the spot.

 

EDIT- I didn't mean to default Engelland in the top 4. I would prefer to see either Nadkladl or Jokipakka take that spot, but I like the idea of creating a compeitition between the 3 for the spot. 

[travel_dude]

I don't understand and will never understand why peoples continue to disrepsect Engelland so much. All he has done is come here and play solid hockey from Day 1 in basically every role they have given him and for what he does 2.9 is more than fair value.

 

It is not easy to just step into a top 4 role and perform admirable and Engelland has done it now on 2 different occasions and played well doing it. If the Flames can't move anyone else and need to move him for salary reason I can get behind it but otherwise I think you need to keep him. The role is plays is not nearly as easy to fill as you think and IMO none of Jokipakka, Wotherspoon or Nadkladl are ready for it. 

 

Sorry, but being realistic here.  You can say he did an admirable job.  Sure, he came in and played above his skill level and did fine. I also said that ideally, he is expendable or a #7.  You do realize he is turning 34 next month, and plays a heavy game and fights when he has to.  Great, sounds like a guy you keep and use against bigger teams.  Do you think he has enough mileage left on him to play 16-20 minutes every night?

 

If you want to run in place next season, then fine, play him every game.  If you want to build for the future, perhaps try using the depth we have traded for, signed or drafted.  No, I don't mean gifting players ice-time, but I also don't think you play every game because you are a vet.  Try a younger player and see if can learn to be a 5/6 player really well.  

[cross16]

Sorry, but being realistic here.  You can say he did an admirable job.  Sure, he came in and played above his skill level and did fine. I also said that ideally, he is expendable or a #7.  You do realize he is turning 34 next month, and plays a heavy game and fights when he has to.  Great, sounds like a guy you keep and use against bigger teams.  Do you think he has enough mileage left on him to play 16-20 minutes every night?

 

If you want to run in place next season, then fine, play him every game.  If you want to build for the future, perhaps try using the depth we have traded for, signed or drafted.  No, I don't mean gifting players ice-time, but I also don't think you play every game because you are a vet.  Try a younger player and see if can learn to be a 5/6 player really well.  

 

Wihout question yup. I see no reason why he is going so suddenly drop off and while yes he is 34 he also has alot less "tread on the tires" sort to speak. 

 

Its not really fair to say Engelland is only playing becuase he is a vet, he is earning his ice time because he is playing well. If you view it as he is blociking others from ice time so be it but I very much disagree with that. Engelland has played in a top 4 role, a bottom pairing role, and also been a healthy scratch so Hartley has already shown if other players are playing better he will play them over Engelland. You seem to be implying that he is one of Hartley's favorites and thus being overplayed which I don't believe to be the case. right now, he is a better bet in the top 4 than any of Nakladl, Wotherspoon, or Jokipakka IMO. Could that change next year, absolutely but let's say you trade Engelland and Wideman, what is exactly is the plan if Jokipaaka, Wotherspoon or Nakdladl can't handle a top 4 role?

[kehatch]

My biggest issue with Engelland hasn't changed and it won't change. You can not afford to pay a bottom pairing D close to 3 million an I don't agree with him playing as a default top 4 player.

That said, I will agree he has been solid this season.

I like the top 4 of Giordano-Brodie / Jokipakka-Hamilton so far. Let's see of the latter pairing stays solid to finish the season, but it has been great so far. Jokipakka isn't a top 4D either, but if I have to compromise I much prefer keeping Giordano-Brodie together. I am not sold on the bottom pairing yet.

[cross16]

My biggest issue with Engelland hasn't changed and it won't change. You can not afford to pay a bottom pairing D close to 3 million an I don't agree with him playing as a default top 4 player.

That said, I will agree he has been solid this season.

I like the top 4 of Giordano-Brodie / Jokipakka-Hamilton so far. Let's see of the latter pairing stays solid to finish the season, but it has been great so far. Jokipakka isn't a top 4D either, but if I have to compromise I much prefer keeping Giordano-Brodie together. I am not sold on the bottom pairing yet.

 

 

Yup sorry I added what I thought was already in that post. I don't want to say Engelland is a top 4 by default I think it should be a competition between him Jokipakka and Nakladl next season 

[kehatch]

Yup sorry I added what I thought was already in that post. I don't want to say Engelland is a top 4 by default I think it should be a competition between him Jokipakka and Nakladl next season

Due to a lack of alternatives it might be top 4 by committee next season. Especially when there are injuries.

I don't see the Flames moving Engelland unless they get another top 4 this summer. They players that can move up and Engelland has the last two seasons. That said, if they find another top 4 I think he is a cap casualty. Tough to justify him on the bottom pair at 3 million when you have guys like Jokipakka, Nakladal, and Wotherspoon making much less to play the spot.

[travel_dude]

Wihout question yup. I see no reason why he is going so suddenly drop off and while yes he is 34 he also has alot less "tread on the tires" sort to speak. 

 

Its not really fair to say Engelland is only playing becuase he is a vet, he is earning his ice time because he is playing well. If you view it as he is blociking others from ice time so be it but I very much disagree with that. Engelland has played in a top 4 role, a bottom pairing role, and also been a healthy scratch so Hartley has already shown if other players are playing better he will play them over Engelland. You seem to be implying that he is one of Hartley's favorites and thus being overplayed which I don't believe to be the case. right now, he is a better bet in the top 4 than any of Nakladl, Wotherspoon, or Jokipakka IMO. Could that change next year, absolutely but let's say you trade Engelland and Wideman, what is exactly is the plan if Jokipaaka, Wotherspoon or Nakdladl can't handle a top 4 role?

 

I believe I was comparing his ice time to Hamilton, which I don't agree with.  Sure, he has probably some amount of tread left due to being used less in Pitts and on the Flames.  At times I have noticed him struggling to keep up with the play, which was more my concern.  

 

If you are able to trade Wideman and Smid, then Engelland is less of an issue.  You can develop players in the bottom pairing and make Engelland redundant if that becomes obvious.  If he is the 5th or 6th best defender we have, then he plays every night.  No issues there.  If he is the 7th best, then he shouldn't play every night.

 

Here is where our opinion of his differ at times.  Nakladal makes really smart plays at times and makes the odd mistake.  Engelland makes safe plays most of the time and has the occasional really smart play.  He is what he is.  The rest of the time he struggles to make simple clearing plays.  Russell was similar in that respect.  Jokipakka is learning, but still has upside.  Spoon has only been used a few times in the last two years.  

 

You can view my comments as disrespectful, but I just giving my opinion of players.  If you feel Engelland makes us better now and for the future, fine, re-sign him.  If you feel he is an adequate placeholder until another player comes up, fine, then he should not prevent another player from surpassing him. 

[MAC331]

I believe I was comparing his ice time to Hamilton, which I don't agree with.  Sure, he has probably some amount of tread left due to being used less in Pitts and on the Flames.  At times I have noticed him struggling to keep up with the play, which was more my concern.  

 

If you are able to trade Wideman and Smid, then Engelland is less of an issue.  You can develop players in the bottom pairing and make Engelland redundant if that becomes obvious.  If he is the 5th or 6th best defender we have, then he plays every night.  No issues there.  If he is the 7th best, then he shouldn't play every night.

 

Here is where our opinion of his differ at times.  Nakladal makes really smart plays at times and makes the odd mistake.  Engelland makes safe plays most of the time and has the occasional really smart play.  He is what he is.  The rest of the time he struggles to make simple clearing plays.  Russell was similar in that respect.  Jokipakka is learning, but still has upside.  Spoon has only been used a few times in the last two years.  

 

You can view my comments as disrespectful, but I just giving my opinion of players.  If you feel Engelland makes us better now and for the future, fine, re-sign him.  If you feel he is an adequate placeholder until another player comes up, fine, then he should not prevent another player from surpassing him. 

It sounds like there are reasons to keep him another year and there are reasons to trade him. I agree that it really depends what BT can get accomplished with Wideman and Smid. If these two are gone, then the money reason has less validity.

Due to a lack of alternatives it might be top 4 by committee next season. Especially when there are injuries.

I don't see the Flames moving Engelland unless they get another top 4 this summer. They players that can move up and Engelland has the last two seasons. That said, if they find another top 4 I think he is a cap casualty. Tough to justify him on the bottom pair at 3 million when you have guys like Jokipakka, Nakladal, and Wotherspoon making much less to play the spot.

I don't mind trying both Wotherspoon and Jokipakka with Hamilton if the decision is to leave Giordano and Brodie together.

[darth_henning]

I don't understand and will never understand why peoples continue to disrepsect Engelland so much. All he has done is come here and play solid hockey from Day 1 in basically every role they have given him and for what he does 2.9 is more than fair value.

 

It is not easy to just step into a top 4 role and perform admirable and Engelland has done it now on 2 different occasions and played well doing it. If the Flames can't move anyone else and need to move him for salary reason I can get behind it but otherwise I think you need to keep him. The role is plays is not nearly as easy to fill as you think and IMO none of Jokipakka, Wotherspoon or Nadkladl are ready for it. 

 

 

Last season I was all over Engellend. He was HORRIBLE for most of the first 2/3 of the season. He and smid in point of fact were the two WORST defencement in the league in +/- half way through the season. 

 

BUT, he did step up in the last third of the season, and has played well this year.

 

But while he CAN step into the top 4, he is NOT a top 4 on a regular basis. And he is being paid far too much for a 3rd pairing guy who can step up. 

 

No, we don't have anyone with his size to step into that particular role, but I think we have equally good defenders who can fill the bottom pairing spot. 

 

 

If I were to retain one of Smid, Wideman and Engellend, it would be Engellend. But we don't NEED to retain him. 

[cross16]

 

If I were to retain one of Smid, Wideman and Engellend, it would be Engellend. But we don't NEED to retain him. 

 

I might agree, depending on how the D is strucuted. I will say this I don't think its a good idea at all to go into next year with:

 

Brodie-Gio

Jokipakka - Hamilton

Wotherspoon - Nakladl

 

I do not like that D core over a full 82 game season and you are 1 injury away from cataspophe IMO. I think you do NEED a veteran dman like Engelland that can play up and down the lineup. Doesn't have to be Engelland but I like him a heck of a lot more than I like Smid/Wideman. 

2.9 is not a gross overpayment for a solid 5/6 dman who can move into your top for stretches at a time. A small overpayment maybe but I think to get someone like that you are in the 2-2.5 range in FA just about every year so I don't view him as that overpaid actually. 

[darth_henning]

He's not horribly overpaid by that metric, but I personally view him as a 6/7 D-man who should play limited role minutes and can play up if there i an injury and no better option. 

 

He's been able to step into the top 4 when paired with Giordano and Brodie. Arguably two of the top 10 D-men in the league. That makes him look a lot better. Pair him with Hamilton and he wouldn't look as good.

 

 We're also forgetting Kulak and Culkin are both close to being ready for the bottom pairing as well. 

 

Yes, an injury to the top 3 would quickly degrade our D quality, but I think we'd be able to manage better than you worry. 

[cross16]

He's not horribly overpaid by that metric, but I personally view him as a 6/7 D-man who should play limited role minutes and can play up if there i an injury and no better option. 

 

He's been able to step into the top 4 when paired with Giordano and Brodie. Arguably two of the top 10 D-men in the league. That makes him look a lot better. Pair him with Hamilton and he wouldn't look as good.

 

 We're also forgetting Kulak and Culkin are both close to being ready for the bottom pairing as well. 

 

Yes, an injury to the top 3 would quickly degrade our D quality, but I think we'd be able to manage better than you worry. 

 

 

Kulak looked 'OK' for a few games and since has gone down and not played well in the A and Culkin is never healthy. I mean I don't mind either of those guys but I think its proves my point if we think we are going to be ok with an injury if it means Kulak or Culkin have to come up and take meaninful minutes. 

[rickross]

LOL so are you saying we keep Giordano until he is an old man only capable of playing in the 3rd pairing. LOL

Was only referring to our prospects. Didn't even mention Gio. I think we can still get a solid 3 years out of Gio before we start considering shopping him. You never know he could get better with age..he's already surpassed his career goals mark this year...no signs of even remotely slowing down yet. I think he's a great example for these kids to see how a pro athlete prepares, competes and maintains a healthy lifestyle thought their playing years. Otherwise you get a whole bunch of skilled kids with no sense of leadership or direction to win games in this league..oh wait sounds like the Oilers!

[robrob1974]

Was only referring to our prospects. Didn't even mention Gio. I think we can still get a solid 3 years out of Gio before we start considering shopping him. You never know he could get better with age..he's already surpassed his career goals mark this year...no signs of even remotely slowing down yet. I think he's a great example for these kids to see how a pro athlete prepares, competes and maintains a healthy lifestyle thought their playing years. Otherwise you get a whole bunch of skilled kids with no sense of leadership or direction to win games in this league..oh wait sounds like the Oilers!

I think it depends on who is coaching. What if he could've been this good with Brent Sutter. Even Bouwmeester looked a thousand times better with Hartley.

[The_People1]

I don't get the Culkin hype.  He has sub-par X's and O's and he hangs onto the puck too long on offensive rushes.  I don't trust him at the NHL level. 

 

Kulak looked average... plagued by Wotherspoon-style passiveness, which, Wotherspoon has since shaken off his game.  Wotherspoon is much more aggressive now, and his gap control has improved vastly.  Moves around with much more purpose than before.

[cccsberg]

I don't get the Culkin hype.  He has sub-par X's and O's and he hangs onto the puck too long on offensive rushes.  I don't trust him at the NHL level. 

 

Kulak looked average... plagued by Wotherspoon-style passiveness, which, Wotherspoon has since shaken off his game.  Wotherspoon is much more aggressive now, and his gap control has improved vastly.  Moves around with much more purpose than before.

Not really sure on Culkin, Kulak looked fine but not special early in the year.

 

With Jokipakka, Nakladal(UFA) and Wotherspoon(RFA) I believe we are solid as far as 4D-6D are concerned, and that's assuming we trade all of Smid, Wideman and Engelland, which likely isn't happening.  I'm counting on them trying though, and re-signing both Nakladal and Wotherspoon.

[MAC331]

Not really sure on Culkin, Kulak looked fine but not special early in the year.

 

With Jokipakka, Nakladal(UFA) and Wotherspoon(RFA) I believe we are solid as far as 4D-6D are concerned, and that's assuming we trade all of Smid, Wideman and Engelland, which likely isn't happening.  I'm counting on them trying though, and re-signing both Nakladal and Wotherspoon.

I know many are zeroed in on trading Wideman however that may not be how this turns out. BT may be better off buying out Smid and trading Engelland.

 

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Wideman

Jokipakka, Nakladal

Wotherspoon

 

This could be what we end up with next season.

[cccsberg]

I know many are zeroed in on trading Wideman however that may not be how this turns out. BT may be better off buying out Smid and trading Engelland.

 

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Wideman

Jokipakka, Nakladal

Wotherspoon

 

This could be what we end up with next season.

My comment refers back to Post #61 on the Expansion Draft thread, which clearly shows the NEED to trade Wideman.  Of course, until the  Expansion and associated expansion draft rules are finalized it is all moot.

[kehatch]

I know many are zeroed in on trading Wideman however that may not be how this turns out. BT may be better off buying out Smid and trading Engelland.

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Wideman

Jokipakka, Nakladal

Wotherspoon

This could be what we end up with next season.

Its possible. I think the Flames like Engelland and would buy out Wideman first though. Also, if Wideman is automatically protected in the upcoming draft he will almost certainly be bought out as no team (Flames included) are going to want to waste a protected spot on Wideman. Though I am really hoping the NHL is smart enough not to force that ridiculous scenario into reality.

[MAC331]

Its possible. I think the Flames like Engelland and would buy out Wideman first though. Also, if Wideman is automatically protected in the upcoming draft he will almost certainly be bought out as no team (Flames included) are going to want to waste a protected spot on Wideman. Though I am really hoping the NHL is smart enough not to force that ridiculous scenario into reality.

Get's interesting eh ?

[420since1974]

4 assists in 9 games.

 

Good start for Jyrki.

[travel_dude]

Its possible. I think the Flames like Engelland and would buy out Wideman first though. Also, if Wideman is automatically protected in the upcoming draft he will almost certainly be bought out as no team (Flames included) are going to want to waste a protected spot on Wideman. Though I am really hoping the NHL is smart enough not to force that ridiculous scenario into reality.

 

Wideman would be pending UFA with a NMC, so I don't even see him as being in the protected status.  That would make no sense at all from a player's perspective.  Pending UFA, but stuck with the current team as protected until he goes UFA after June 30th? Weird.

 

Bettman/Daly have said that in order for expansion to happen for 2017/18, it has to be announced by July 1st of this year.  He also said they aren't operating under a timetable to get it done by then.