Training Camp battles

[cross16]

which begs the question. With the "earned it thinking" does this play into the actual results of what the Flames do?

 

if granlund gets sent down because he does not have to clear waivers but played better .....

 

 

I said if all being equal, as if if there is no advantage either way and they are playing equally as effective. IMO if Granlund is the superior player he should be on the team but to date I would not argue that to be the case.

 

I know as fans we love to talk about "earned never given" but IMO contract status/salary etc will always play some role in deciding as well. Even if Granlund was slightly better, I don't think the organization would risk losing Shore for nothing and play Granlund. Its just not smart business. If Granlund is clearly better sure, but if its close and their is a debate no doubt in my mind the contract status would take over. NHL is a business, and there are times where "earned never given" has to be amended.

My point is about his ability to adapt to other needs.  He plays bottom 3 agitator/hard checking forward well.  He doesn't play that well in a speed game, or playing short a player.  He doesn't provide offense (much).

 

Compare that to every other forward still in camp.  As an extra player used when in the playoffs (when things get nasty) or against dirty team, he is fine.  But keeping a guy to play 7 minutes, while the rest of his line plays over 10?  Engelland is likely to be on the ice for 10-15 minutes a night to take care of that stuff.

 

I don't think having someone like Shore or Granlund will make Hartley play his 4th line anymore. He doesn't play the 4th line less because of Bolig, he plays them less becuase he has 3 lines that are better. Your 4th line should only play 7-10 mins max a game IMO and if they need to play more then that I would argue you don't have a very good top 6.

[robrob1974]

I think putting Jones on the 4th actually allows them to play the 4th more because Stajan and Jones can take more minutes. Stajan is really pouring it on this camp and at the end of last year.

We have enough forwards to sub in during a game if you play Bollig less when he is dressed to play.

I think it's possible to roll 4lines most of a game. Hartley plays lines on how he feels they're playing any given game.

[Khrox]

Hartley isn't afraid to play his fourth line if he feels they have been a good line *cough*Vancouver*cough*. And I think it was his first year as coach (so the year before all the trades) at one point he put 5 D-Men on the Powerplay because he felt all the forwards were playing very poorly and not putting in any effort (though this may have been Butters last year). 

If either Bouma or Ferland can pick up RW with some efficiency I would love to see a Bollig-Stajan-Jones Fourth and a Bouma/Ferland-Backlund-Ferland/Bouma shut down line. Of course you could also run Ferland-Stajan-Jones 4th line as well and run Bouma-Backlund-Colborne shut-down line.

I am (so far) loving Bolligs effort since the last bit of last season. That is the guy we traded for, not the guy we had the first half to 3/4 of the year. And he has definitely kept it up this pre-season so far. If he can keep up that level of play (maybe not the 2 goal games, but that little bit of offensive boost wouldn't hurt) then I would definitely be less upset if he played 82 games. Especially with the amount of work Stajan has been putting in (again, since the last half of last year on). He is definitely making sure that the young guys (such as Arnold) have their work cut out for them if they want that spot without an injury occurring.

[DirtyDeeds]

Hartley isn't afraid to play his fourth line if he feels they have been a good line *cough*Vancouver*cough*. And I think it was his first year as coach (so the year before all the trades) at one point he put 5 D-Men on the Powerplay because he felt all the forwards were playing very poorly and not putting in any effort (though this may have been Butters last year). 

If either Bouma or Ferland can pick up RW with some efficiency I would love to see a Bollig-Stajan-Jones Fourth and a Bouma/Ferland-Backlund-Ferland/Bouma shut down line. Of course you could also run Ferland-Stajan-Jones 4th line as well and run Bouma-Backlund-Colborne shut-down line.

I am (so far) loving Bolligs effort since the last bit of last season. That is the guy we traded for, not the guy we had the first half to 3/4 of the year. And he has definitely kept it up this pre-season so far. If he can keep up that level of play (maybe not the 2 goal games, but that little bit of offensive boost wouldn't hurt) then I would definitely be less upset if he played 82 games. Especially with the amount of work Stajan has been putting in (again, since the last half of last year on). He is definitely making sure that the young guys (such as Arnold) have their work cut out for them if they want that spot without an injury occurring.

that was Butter

[Khrox]

that was Butter

 

I knew it was around that time between Butters last year and Hartleys first year. It still seems like something Hartley would do (I mean come on, put Brodie, Russel, Gio, Hamilton and Wideman out there? Still a good chance we score)

[hayen]

Obviously a lot of debate available but I do like today's lines and will love watching how they work together.

[cccsberg]

Well in this game I believe Granlund played great and improved his stock, with Hathaway upping his status too. Bennett also seemed to play better as a Center. The last thing was Hudler, he upped whichever line he was on. We've got to get him re-signed for another 4 years. As well, both goalies were solid. Nothing getting easier there.

I don't believe Shore or Byron did much to boost their status, and Colborne of course didn't play.

[DirtyDeeds]

Well in this game I believe Granlund played great and improved his stock, with Hathaway upping his status too. Bennett also seemed to play better as a Center. The last thing was Hudler, he upped whichever line he was on. We've got to get him re-signed for another 4 years. As well, both goalies were solid. Nothing getting easier there.

I don't believe Shore or Byron did much to boost their status, and Colborne of course didn't play.

there are many here that feel we should get rid of Hudler while his value is high. I am not one of them.

[JTech780]

Here is my guess on the opening roster:

Forwards (13): Gaudreau, Monahan, Hudler, Frolik, Backlund, Bennett, Bouma, Stajan, Jones, Ferland, Jooris, Colborne, Bollig

Defense (7): Giordano, Hamilton, Wideman, Russell, Engelland, Wilson, Nakladal

Goalies (3): Hiller, Ramo, Ortio

IR (2): Brodie, Smid

I think Calgary is going to start the year with 3 goalies, mostly to see if Ortio can put together a few games. If Ortio us up to the task then I think Ramo is the odd man out.

Keeping 3 goalies means we are going to lose some forwards. Granlund will get sent down as there just isn't room for him to play everyday right now so keeping him as an extra makes very little sense. Byron clears waivers. Raymond is going to be a tough sell but maybe a team like Arizona who have a lot of young untested forwards and are very close to the salary cap floor might want to take Raymond as a bit of an insurance policy. Shore is another trade bait. I like Shore but we just don't have room for him and would most likely lose him to waivers so why not recoup a late round pick.

Wotherspoon still needs some seasoning by my estimation and Wilson and Nakladal provide steady veteran help while we wait for guys to get healthy.

[travel_dude]

Well in this game I believe Granlund played great and improved his stock, with Hathaway upping his status too. Bennett also seemed to play better as a Center. The last thing was Hudler, he upped whichever line he was on. We've got to get him re-signed for another 4 years. As well, both goalies were solid. Nothing getting easier there.

I don't believe Shore or Byron did much to boost their status, and Colborne of course didn't play.

 

 

Hey, didn't you say elsewhere you were listening to the game on the radio?  

 

Shore, Jooris and Backlund with FO% in the high 70's.  Shore played well, but didn't get many chances.  Granlund and he were similar in impact, but for different reasons.  Byron was Byron.  Not the usual hard hits, but not bad 2-way play.

 

By eye, Engelland was the least effective D-man out there.  The D seemed to have trouble getting it out, but not always sure which pair was out there.

 

there are many here that feel we should get rid of Hudler while his value is high. I am not one of them.

 

I never understood this idea.  Maybe we can't get him re-signed due to a few expensive (for the value) contracts, but Hudler is one of our most consistent players.  If the first line scores, he is in on it somehow.  Considering the vale BT signed some guys to, I doubt Jiri will break the bank.  I think he wants to be here.  He has a new Czech-mate to hang with (or two).

[CheersMan]

there are many here that feel we should get rid of Hudler while his value is high. I am not one of them.

 

 

 

I never understood this idea.  Maybe we can't get him re-signed due to a few expensive (for the value) contracts, but Hudler is one of our most consistent players.  If the first line scores, he is in on it somehow.  Considering the vale BT signed some guys to, I doubt Jiri will break the bank.  I think he wants to be here.  He has a new Czech-mate to hang with (or two).

 

It is not about getting rid of Hudler as much as can we afford to keep him?  With his offensive numbers increasing 40-50% last season over his previous career best year, saying he had a career year last season would be an understatement.  He is playing first line minutes (deservingly) with the best players on this team in his contract year.  He will be 33 in the first year of his next deal.  If we could extend him near his present dollar value then he might fit, but some are talking $6M/yr on a multiyear extension which is way too rich considering the direction this team is going.

[robrob1974]

there are many here that feel we should get rid of Hudler while his value is high. I am not one of them.

 

Feaster sure got this one right! He also said he believed Hudler had a lot more to give, given more responsibility and opportunity, which I am assuming Hudler felt he wouldn't get in Detroit. 

[MAC331]

Feaster sure got this one right! He also said he believed Hudler had a lot more to give, given more responsibility and opportunity, which I am assuming Hudler felt he wouldn't get in Detroit. 

 

There should be little doubt Hudler is a fit for this team. I am sure if BT can make the money work he gets another 3 year deal from the Flames.

[travel_dude]

It is not about getting rid of Hudler as much as can we afford to keep him?  With his offensive numbers increasing 40-50% last season over his previous career best year, saying he had a career year last season would be an understatement.  He is playing first line minutes (deservingly) with the best players on this team in his contract year.  He will be 33 in the first year of his next deal.  If we could extend him near his present dollar value then he might fit, but some are talking $6M/yr on a multiyear extension which is way too rich considering the direction this team is going.

 

Let say that he doesn't regress this season.  He stays the same or scores more points.  Do you trade him because he is your best player and you can't afford to sign him?  Does two season of high numbers mean he is going to regress the following year?

 

Sure, we can't afford to pay him $7m for 5 years.  But a reasonable bump for an effective player?  We should consider the team affect before we ship him out for picks and/or prospects.  Futures are not always better than what you have.

[The_People1]

Let say that he doesn't regress this season.  He stays the same or scores more points.  Do you trade him because he is your best player and you can't afford to sign him?  Does two season of high numbers mean he is going to regress the following year?

 

What Hudler does statistically/offensively only affects his trade value and perceived return. 

 

Whether he'll be traded or not this season will be based on where the team is in the standings come TDL.

[darth_henning]

Unless we're somehow out of the playoff race at TDL, there's no way I trade Hudler. One of our best, and most versatile forwards, who has proven to be a good leader and mentor. Based on his play in pre-season, there's no reason to suspect some massive regression as some are suggesting. 

 

The main battles right now should be for who stays for Goal, and who plays 5/6 D. 

 

Forwards are essentially decided at this point with maybe some motion on the bottom 3 depending how the last couple pre-season games go, but I don't see Raymond playing his way onto the team. 

 

 

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland

Hudler - Bennett - Frolick

Bouma - Backlund - Jones

Bollig - Stajan - Jooris

Colborne / Shore

 

Giordano - Hamilton

Russell - Wideman

Engellend? Wotherspoon? Nandakal? Wilson?

 

Ortio

Hiller? Ramo?

[travel_dude]

What Hudler does statistically/offensively only affects his trade value and perceived return. 

 

Whether he'll be traded or not this season will be based on where the team is in the standings come TDL.

 

What do you expect to get for a player in his 30's at TDL?  A lousy 1st rounder from a contender?  Some prospect they deem expendable?  If he is a valuable trade piece, then he is as valuable to us or more.

 

If we are far out of the playoff picture in February, then he may be shopped.  Are we really expecting the Flames to be in the bottom third of the league this season?

[zima]

If huds keeps the pace he is on now then I expect him to be the scoring leader I thought it would be Bennett but Im usually wrong any ways Ok put a better way I was hoping it was going to be Bennett wanted him to walk away with Calder. Also looks like Dougie has a knee problem of some kind I noticed iin the conversation he gave there was a braise behind him in his stall.   

[The_People1]

What do you expect to get for a player in his 30's at TDL?  A lousy 1st rounder from a contender?  Some prospect they deem expendable?  If he is a valuable trade piece, then he is as valuable to us or more.

 

If we are far out of the playoff picture in February, then he may be shopped.  Are we really expecting the Flames to be in the bottom third of the league this season?

 

What makes signing Jiri Hudler so difficult is that last season was a statistical anomaly.

 

Do we extend him based on this anomaly?  I think not.  I'm beginning to think it's best for all parties involved to see one more season from Hudler before a new value/contract number can be established.  He's a career 50-point player before suddenly putting up 76-points.

[zima]

I just Noticed they are bringing up Morrison and sieloff I was also thinking the fact that the Stockton Heat have a watered down season only I believe 68 games give the Flames a huge opportunity to bring up players in there down time I Know it's not really down time but less travel and more training but it should allow for some players to come up and play a few games here and there.

[travel_dude]

What makes signing Jiri Hudler so difficult is that last season was a statistical anomaly.

 

Do we extend him based on this anomaly?  I think not.  I'm beginning to think it's best for all parties involved to see one more season from Hudler before a new value/contract number can be established.  He's a career 50-point player before suddenly putting up 76-points.

Johnny and Mony both exceeded expectation by scoring 64 and 62 points.  You can call that the Hudler effect.  Or you call call Hudler's season the Johnny effect.  If he plays with Johnny the whole season and doesn't reach 70 points, then you are right; it's an anomaly.

[The_People1]

Forwards are essentially decided at this point with maybe some motion on the bottom 3 depending how the last couple pre-season games go, but I don't see Raymond playing his way onto the team. 

 

Agreed.  If it wasn't obvious that Mason Raymond has no place on this team before, then it certainly is obvious now.  He's been out played by every forward at camp.  We'll see if he gets waived.

[The_People1]

Johnny and Mony both exceeded expectation by scoring 64 and 62 points.  You can call that the Hudler effect.  Or you call call Hudler's season the Johnny effect.  If he plays with Johnny the whole season and doesn't reach 70 points, then you are right; it's an anomaly.

 

I get the sense that management doesn't value Hudler as much as fans do.  I think they see a "sell high" scenario and would only bring back Hudler on a contract that reflects a 50-point player.

 

It's too bad because I agree he's been influential in Gaudreau and Monahan's development.  He may be key to Bennett's development this season as well. 

 

To me, it's simple.  Dump Mason Raymond and give a part of his salary to Hudler.  Done and done.

[Wreckening]

I get the sense that management doesn't value Hudler as much as fans do.  I think they see a "sell high" scenario and would only bring back Hudler on a contract that reflects a 50-point player.

 

It's too bad because I agree he's been influential in Gaudreau and Monahan's development.  He may be key to Bennett's development this season as well. 

 

To me, it's simple.  Dump Mason Raymond and give a part of his salary to Hudler.  Done and done.

What gives you the feeling that management doesn't value Hudler though? I've not seen or heard anything from BT and company that would support this. If its because he doesn't have an extension yet, well that's pretty unfair. I think management had a lot on their plate this summer with the Giordano extension and with RFA's.

 

Hudler is a great player. He can mentor as well as put up points. I personally think the Flames are waiting to see where they are at in terms of salary once the season begins and where they sit monetarily going into next year. I think you'll see something move on this front pretty soon. To trade Hudler, in my opinion, would be a costly mistake and really hurt the development of our younger guys.

 

And as far as being as simple of dumping Raymond and giving Huds the money......well it's not really that simple. You have to have someone who wants Raymond and that's not an easy thing to do. The player and the contract are both stumbling blocks. Raymond isn't that great and the contract is a little steep to want to pick up off of waivers.

[cross16]

I get the sense that management doesn't value Hudler as much as fans do.  I think they see a "sell high" scenario and would only bring back Hudler on a contract that reflects a 50-point player.

 

It's too bad because I agree he's been influential in Gaudreau and Monahan's development.  He may be key to Bennett's development this season as well. 

 

To me, it's simple.  Dump Mason Raymond and give a part of his salary to Hudler.  Done and done.

 

Not simple Peeps. Flames need to dump Raymond not to pay Hudler but to pay increases to Gio, Monahan, Gaudreau and then likely Bennett the year after.The Flames need to dump Raymond in order to keep their core, not to be able to pay Hudler. I think the only way Hulder is kep is he has to agree to play for 5.5 or less and they would have to dump all of Raymond, Engelland and Smid and retain very little money to do so. And even then, I think the Flames would be  very tight to the cap, year in and year out.