Training Camp battles

[The_People1]

The silver lining of those injuries are that those three players can begin the season on the IR, meaning the Flames can carry 3 additional players for the first little while.  This definitely opens the door for a month long audition of Poirier and perhaps either Shore or Grant or someone like that.  We could see a Dman like Morrison for a month before Smid returns.

[cccsberg]

The silver lining of those injuries are that those three players can begin the season on the IR, meaning the Flames can carry 3 additional players for the first little while.  This definitely opens the door for a month long audition of Poirier and perhaps either Shore or Grant or someone like that.  We could see a Dman like Morrison for a month before Smid returns.

Never like to see guys out injured but in this case I'll make an exception.  Something had to be done and this clears the decks a bit and gives several guys an extended period to earn their spots, if true.

[travel_dude]

Here's a weird PTO for the Flames:

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/9/10/report-sergei-kostitsyn-joins-flames-on-pto

 

It's actually Andrei, not Sergei.  Either way, not a big fan of this one.

[JTech780]

Here's a weird PTO for the Flames:

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/9/10/report-sergei-kostitsyn-joins-flames-on-pto

It's actually Andrei, not Sergei. Either way, not a big fan of this one.

Both Kostitsyn's have contracts in the KHL so neither one is coming over. From what I understand Calgary had talked to one of the Kostitsyn's about coming over on a PTO before they signed KHL contracts.

[JTech780]

Add Douglas Murray and Aaron Johnson to players coming into camp on PTO's.

[cross16]

Add Douglas Murray and Aaron Johnson to players coming into camp on PTO's.

 

Looks the Flames want to be about 10 men deep in NHL blueliners....

 

In all seriousness though, i think PTOs are more about camp rosters then anything else. Hartley and all the players admitted how difficult their camps are and that they scrimmage more then most other NHL teams. I think the PTO are more about balancing out rosters for training camp then they are actually taking serious looks at these guys.

[travel_dude]

Looks the Flames want to be about 10 men deep in NHL blueliners....

 

In all seriousness though, i think PTOs are more about camp rosters then anything else. Hartley and all the players admitted how difficult their camps are and that they scrimmage more then most other NHL teams. I think the PTO are more about balancing out rosters for training camp then they are actually taking serious looks at these guys.

 

I tend to agree.  As well, they might want to look at depth options for the farm.

 

Wilson is probably one guy that could challenge for a spot.  I think he is this year's Schlemko.  He is at best a 3/4, but his injury troubles could still haunt him.  If injury free, he is a far better depth option than Engelland or Smid.

[The_People1]

The Flames have arguably the most difficult Top 6 D to crack in the NHL on a try out basis.  That 7th spot currently belongs to Smid on paper and if he's healthy, then he's not an easy guy to knock off the roster. 

[kehatch]

The groupings are on the main site for training camp. Obviously it's too early to say with any certainty what the lines will be. The Flames have said they will experiment. But to start it looks like

Gaudreau-Monahan-Jooris/Ferland

Colborne/Bouma-Backlund-Frolik

?/Raymond-Stajan-Jones

?/Raymond-Bennett-Hudler

Giordano-Hamilton

Russell-Wideman

Brodie-Engelland

A few items if interest.

First, I predicted this defensive pairings because it makes sense based on previous pairs. But I HATE it. Brodie and Engelland together is a terrible idea. Hopefully it doesn't survive camp.

It is also interesting to see Hudler with Bennett's group rather then with Monahan and Gaudreau. Also interesting is that Frolik isn't there in his place. The rest if the lines and pairings make sense.

It's early. And those might not even be the lines to start. But it gives us some insight into what Hartley is thinking. We should know more today.

[travel_dude]

The groupings are on the main site for training camp. Obviously it's too early to say with any certainty what the lines will be. The Flames have said they will experiment. But to start it looks like

Gaudreau-Monahan-Jooris/Ferland

Colborne/Bouma-Backlund-Frolik

?/Raymond-Stajan-Jones

?/Raymond-Bennett-Hudler

Giordano-Hamilton

Russell-Wideman

Brodie-Engelland

A few items if interest.

First, I predicted this defensive pairings because it makes sense based on previous pairs. But I HATE it. Brodie and Engelland together is a terrible idea. Hopefully it doesn't survive camp.

It is also interesting to see Hudler with Bennett's group rather then with Monahan and Gaudreau. Also interesting is that Frolik isn't there in his place. The rest if the lines and pairings make sense.

It's early. And those might not even be the lines to start. But it gives us some insight into what Hartley is thinking. We should know more today.

 

The grouping look to be a way of judging players out of their element.  Guys that are near NHL ready (Granlund, Agostino, Wotherspoon) need to be playing on the same "team" as some of the real guys.  Brodie has already played with Engelland, so there is no need to see that again.  But there is a good chance to see him with Brodie.

 

Frolik and Hudler are really good guys for being Swiss Army Knives.  They don't need to spend camp with anyone in particular.  As the roster gets trimmed, you will see the final roster evolve.  The Oiler split-team games usually are the end of the experiments, and the guys surviving the cuts will get a few more chances in games with a vet (that has a spot) sitting out.

[JTech780]

The groupings are on the main site for training camp. Obviously it's too early to say with any certainty what the lines will be. The Flames have said they will experiment. But to start it looks like

Gaudreau-Monahan-Jooris/Ferland

Colborne/Bouma-Backlund-Frolik

?/Raymond-Stajan-Jones

?/Raymond-Bennett-Hudler

Giordano-Hamilton

Russell-Wideman

Brodie-Engelland

A few items if interest.

First, I predicted this defensive pairings because it makes sense based on previous pairs. But I HATE it. Brodie and Engelland together is a terrible idea. Hopefully it doesn't survive camp.

It is also interesting to see Hudler with Bennett's group rather then with Monahan and Gaudreau. Also interesting is that Frolik isn't there in his place. The rest if the lines and pairings make sense.

It's early. And those might not even be the lines to start. But it gives us some insight into what Hartley is thinking. We should know more today.

Sounds like Ferland is skating on the right side on a line with Gaudreau and Monahan this morning. Way too early to read anything into that, but interesting none the less. If Ferland can keep up with those two he adds a much needed dimension to that line and to the top 6 in general.

[travel_dude]

Sounds like Ferland is skating on the right side on a line with Gaudreau and Monahan this morning. Way too early to read anything into that, but interesting none the less. If Ferland can keep up with those two he adds a much needed dimension to that line and to the top 6 in general.

 

Ferland played really well last year at camp, playing with Johnny and Jooris (IIRC).  The skrimms don't concern me as much as the lines for the pre-season games.  As Kehatch said, I hope that they keep TJ away from Engelland.  He deserves better, and the team would be better with him playing with Hamilton or Gio.

[cross16]

Count me in the crowd that hates the idea of TJ and Engelland too. I actually like Engelland so thats not it, i just feel when it comes to ice time it will mean less ice time for Brodie because as much as Hartley will probalby tell us it won't matter when it comes down to it and you can put Russell-Wideman out or Brodie - DEng out who do you really think he is going to choose? I consdier Brodie arguable the 2nd best dman on this team (pending how Hamilton transitions) so anything that potentially limits his ice time I believe is a mistake.

 

I really like that they want to at least try Hamilton - Gio, and I do like that they want to try some different forwrad combos as well. As we all know, the Flames really had no scoring balance last year and I think they are going to need it this year so I like the idea of trying some new lines to see if they can get it. They are keeping at least some pairings together for the most part so if it doens't work i think its pretty easy to move a guy on or off a line and not really have the chemistry suffer.

[travel_dude]

Count me in the crowd that hates the idea of TJ and Engelland too. I actually like Engelland so thats not it, i just feel when it comes to ice time it will mean less ice time for Brodie because as much as Hartley will probalby tell us it won't matter when it comes down to it and you can put Russell-Wideman out or Brodie - DEng out who do you really think he is going to choose? I consdier Brodie arguable the 2nd best dman on this team (pending how Hamilton transitions) so anything that potentially limits his ice time I believe is a mistake.

 

I really like that they want to at least try Hamilton - Gio, and I do like that they want to try some different forwrad combos as well. As we all know, the Flames really had no scoring balance last year and I think they are going to need it this year so I like the idea of trying some new lines to see if they can get it. They are keeping at least some pairings together for the most part so if it doens't work i think its pretty easy to move a guy on or off a line and not really have the chemistry suffer.

 

I agree that Brodie is probably the 2nd best on the team.  He makes Gio better and Gio makes him better too.  I have no real problem with Brodie playing with any one of Hamilton, Gio, Wideman, Russell, or Wotherspoon. 

 

As much as people talk about how the Russell/Wideman combo was great, the underlying number say otherwise.  They mostly got their heads beat in.  If we are going to use Engelland at all, play Russell with him.  I actually hope that Wilson shows that he is still at least a 5/6 player, then we can alternate Engelland out (or off the team).  I don't share your "love" for Engelland.  He did what he was asked, he played big against the Canucks, he fought two players at once...But we need to get better, so perhaps we only use him against the teams that employ goons.

[JTech780]

Bouma/Backlund/Frolik are skating together as a line today as well. That should make for a solid shut down/2B line.

As far the defensive pairings go, I am a little concerned about Russell/Wideman as both had career years last year that might be hard to duplicate. I could see the benefits of a Brodie/Wideman pairing as Brodie's skating ability covers up for Wideman's lack of recovery speed. The only issue with pairing those two is that defensive positioning isn't a strong suit if either player, so it could lead to some scambles in the defensive zone.

[The_People1]

I would have to agree, Brodie with Wideman makes more sense.  Russell-Engellend combo would leave us with a weak bottom pair but the bottom pair really should just play 15-minutes a night.  the remaining 45-minutes should be split between Giordano-Hamilton and Brodie-Wideman.  We want these four on the ice as much as possible.

[cross16]

I agree that Brodie is probably the 2nd best on the team.  He makes Gio better and Gio makes him better too.  I have no real problem with Brodie playing with any one of Hamilton, Gio, Wideman, Russell, or Wotherspoon. 

 

As much as people talk about how the Russell/Wideman combo was great, the underlying number say otherwise.  They mostly got their heads beat in.  If we are going to use Engelland at all, play Russell with him.  I actually hope that Wilson shows that he is still at least a 5/6 player, then we can alternate Engelland out (or off the team).  I don't share your "love" for Engelland.  He did what he was asked, he played big against the Canucks, he fought two players at once...But we need to get better, so perhaps we only use him against the teams that employ goons.

 

I agree with this. I know its frowned upon to say otherwise becuase yes they stepped up so much, but i've never really been a big fan of the Russell/Wideman pairing. yes they stepped up when Gio went down and took alot of minutes and i respect them for that but I never felt they wre ever a "great" or even 'very good" pairing. of all the combos the Flames had, including Brodie/Engelland, Russell/Wideman was the one that had me the most worried. they get hemmed in their own zone longer and more then any other pairing IMO.

 

I don't "love" engelland I just respect the job he does and I think he gets treated very unfairly around here. I think if you are expecting Wilson to beat him out or be anything more then a 6th dman I would caution you. Even in his prime in Colorado I thought Wilson was never anything more then a depth guy, he's just not a very good skater.

[travel_dude]

I agree with this. I know its frowned upon to say otherwise becuase yes they stepped up so much, but i've never really been a big fan of the Russell/Wideman pairing. yes they stepped up when Gio went down and took alot of minutes and i respect them for that but I never felt they wre ever a "great" or even 'very good" pairing. of all the combos the Flames had, including Brodie/Engelland, Russell/Wideman was the one that had me the most worried. they get hemmed in their own zone longer and more then any other pairing IMO.

 

I don't "love" engelland I just respect the job he does and I think he gets treated very unfairly around here. I think if you are expecting Wilson to beat him out or be anything more then a 6th dman I would caution you. Even in his prime in Colorado I thought Wilson was never anything more then a depth guy, he's just not a very good skater.

 

TBH, I am hoping that Wotherspoon finally puts together a good camp (was injured last year's) and forces his way onto the lineup. Nakladal is my 2nd choice due to his year of pro experience, but I think he needs seasoning in the AHL to get used to the NA game.

 

Wilson's skating is likely no worse than Engelland's.  He (supposedly) is good at skating backwards and lining up big hits on players. That is one thing we are missing in our defensive crew.  Gio can hit pretty good, but you don't always want your #1 laying the body. Engelland is tough as nails, but is too slow to surprise a player. Russell will do it but is too small to knock a player down.  Wideman telegraphs his hit, so mostly players can slip by (usual MO is crouching hip check).  I can't say what Hamilton brings as far as hits.

 

So, if Wilson is not a liability (like Engelland can be) and can hit like a ton of bricks, then he adds to our core.

[kehatch]

I am of two minds with Russell and Wideman playing on a pair.

One, I agree that it isn't a strong pairing. I get all of the reasons why some love them, but at the end of the day they give up more then they gain when they play together.

But I also understand that Wideman really struggled until paired with Russell. They do have some chemistry together. Given his salary we need to keep him producing.

Regardless, Brodie and Engelland can't happen. Brodie sees competition Engelland has no business seeing. Brodie can't play like Brodie when anchored with Engelland. It's a terrible misses of one of our best players.

[kehatch]

On another note, based on camp today it looks like the early lines are:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland

Raymond-Bennett-Hudler

Bouma-Backlund-Frolik

??

Giordano-Hamilton

Russell-Wideman

Brodie-Engelland

[travel_dude]

On another note, based on camp today it looks like the early lines are:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland

Raymond-Bennett-Hudler

Bouma-Backlund-Frolik

??

Giordano-Hamilton

Russell-Wideman

Brodie-Engelland

 

On the forwards, swap Ferland with Frolik and you have better scoring options.

 

On defense, for the love of all that is holy, get Brodie away from Engelland.

[Khrox]

I almost want to see Gio paired with Wideman. Gio can lay the body as much as Russell, can provide even better offense, and is solid enough defensively to still let Wideman play his game and not worry. That leaves the chance for Brodie and Hamilton to develop some chemistry (as they are the most likely the future first pairing for our team once Gio consistently stays at 2nd pairing). Leaving Russell with Engelland. Russell can easily cover for Engellands defensive mistakes while still providing some offense on our third pairing as well. It's not a knock on Engelland, I do enjoy what he does and he has done exactly what he was brought on to the team to do (and surpassed it a few times once Gio went down and in the playoffs), but he isn't going to provide any consistent offensive threats on any pairing, and someone like Russell (or Brodie, though I'd prefer not to have him there) allows all 3 pairings a chance at providing offense.

[MAC331]

I almost want to see Gio paired with Wideman. Gio can lay the body as much as Russell, can provide even better offense, and is solid enough defensively to still let Wideman play his game and not worry. That leaves the chance for Brodie and Hamilton to develop some chemistry (as they are the most likely the future first pairing for our team once Gio consistently stays at 2nd pairing). Leaving Russell with Engelland. Russell can easily cover for Engellands defensive mistakes while still providing some offense on our third pairing as well. It's not a knock on Engelland, I do enjoy what he does and he has done exactly what he was brought on to the team to do (and surpassed it a few times once Gio went down and in the playoffs), but he isn't going to provide any consistent offensive threats on any pairing, and someone like Russell (or Brodie, though I'd prefer not to have him there) allows all 3 pairings a chance at providing offense.

I agree with Wideman being paired up with Giordano, Wideman needs the stability that he provides. Brodie on the LS with Hamilton makes all kinds of sense. Russell has the mobility required to work on the LS with Engelland.

[travel_dude]

I agree with Wideman being paired up with Giordano, Wideman needs the stability that he provides. Brodie on the LS with Hamilton makes all kinds of sense. Russell has the mobility required to work on the LS with Engelland.

 

This is a reasonable idea, as Brodie and Hamilton will be the pairing of the future.  Gio/Wideman will also highlight Wideman for a future trade, or show how much he is worth to the Flames.  Russell and 6th D-man will provide the minutes to round it out.

 

Another option is Gio/Hamilton and Brodie/Wideman.  TBH, Brodie can play any spot in the top 4.  He is that good.

 

The worst possible is Brodie with Engelland.  I offer up the following article that shows advanced stats that back up the opinion.

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/9/19/brodie-and-engelland-is-not-a-good-pairing

 

[420since1974]

For me, its easy.

 

Brodie, Giordano, Hamilton, and Wideman are all Top 4 D on almost every team in the league.

Mix and match all you will, that's were they belong.

 

For the bottom pairing, the Flames most likely start with Russell - Engelland, as Smid will not be cleared for contact until at least mid-October.

 

I don't foresee Morrison, Nakladal, or Wotherspoon playing well enough this season to force a $3M contract to the AHL.

D prospects will be "blocked" until Trevling can shed Engelland's or Smid's contracts.

Trading one of Russell or Wideman would open a spot, but that is unlikely to happen near the beginning of this season.