Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, zima said:

Bashing me seems to be this forums go to when they don't like what I say I guess I should be use to it just because my opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make me a fool perhaps it make me right and you wrong who knows I must admit don't remember you being one of them but has been along time since I have been on here and this is why I guess . Seems to me it has been a good run in the reg season and we fall apart in the PFs and we are losing our future to dumb trades and losing big bucks to bad FA pickups now I know it is not all on BT but he is the GM and the mistakes fall squarely on his shoulders we need to move on from this squad or at least some of them and try something different . Last few yrs it was the goalies fault then coaching or other way around . In my little mind I think it is time to realize we are getting no where fast and now a new goalie and still same thing even with the goalie standing on his head it just doesn't matter. All these players are  great players but as a team they no longer mesh and BT is just dropping good draft picks to raise the bar and we are sinking. It seems like the sutter area all over again. Now I know that removing the GM might not be any better than changing coaches every 2 yrs but time for new blood in the management office or grow some and make the hard decisions.  Last time on here again don't need or appreciate the disrespect enjoy your click

 

i have a feeling we are all right and all wrong. lol “You have your version but I have the truth,” is this site in some ways. It’s interesting.
 

See, I liked the first 5 games of Sutter hockey because it just seemed like they weren’t playing at all before then. It was just refreshing to se them engaged and skating. For me, the biggest problem was the lack of engagement getting up for games, and the lack of killer instinct when playing teams well below them on paper.
 

it’s now painful to watch because there is an unwillingness to do what it takes the get dirty. Dirty is what gets you wins in a North Division (playoff-like atmosphere), and in the Playoffs. 
 

we have two players willing to do that and they’re a couple of the smallest forwards. MANGE AND DUBES! 
 

Everyone else plays outside and try make pretty plays. No one knows how to crisscross to open up ice and no one gets it into the front of the net to poke in the rebounds or get tips which might make for more options.

[tmac70]

12 hours ago, zima said:

Bashing me seems to be this forums go to when they don't like what I say I guess I should be use to it just because my opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make me a fool perhaps it make me right and you wrong who knows I must admit don't remember you being one of them but has been along time since I have been on here and this is why I guess . Seems to me it has been a good run in the reg season and we fall apart in the PFs and we are losing our future to dumb trades and losing big bucks to bad FA pickups now I know it is not all on BT but he is the GM and the mistakes fall squarely on his shoulders we need to move on from this squad or at least some of them and try something different . Last few yrs it was the goalies fault then coaching or other way around . In my little mind I think it is time to realize we are getting no where fast and now a new goalie and still same thing even with the goalie standing on his head it just doesn't matter. All these players are  great players but as a team they no longer mesh and BT is just dropping good draft picks to raise the bar and we are sinking. It seems like the sutter area all over again. Now I know that removing the GM might not be any better than changing coaches every 2 yrs but time for new blood in the management office or grow some and make the hard decisions.  Last time on here again don't need or appreciate the disrespect enjoy your click

Hey man do not get offend. Most if not everyone can be fairly respectful on here. Really we all have our opinions, i am with you on Trevling needs to be removed. Unfortunetly its against the self proclaimted few that believe theirs views are far more accurate than the rest. 

[LouCifer]

10 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Hey man do not get offend. Most if not everyone can be fairly respectful on here. Really we all have our opinions, i am with you on Trevling needs to be removed. Unfortunetly its against the self proclaimted few that believe theirs views are far more accurate than the rest. 

 

22 hours ago, zima said:

Bashing me seems to be this forums go to when they don't like what I say I guess I should be use to it just because my opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't make me a fool perhaps it make me right and you wrong who knows I must admit don't remember you being one of them but has been along time since I have been on here and this is why I guess . Seems to me it has been a good run in the reg season and we fall apart in the PFs and we are losing our future to dumb trades and losing big bucks to bad FA pickups now I know it is not all on BT but he is the GM and the mistakes fall squarely on his shoulders we need to move on from this squad or at least some of them and try something different . Last few yrs it was the goalies fault then coaching or other way around . In my little mind I think it is time to realize we are getting no where fast and now a new goalie and still same thing even with the goalie standing on his head it just doesn't matter. All these players are  great players but as a team they no longer mesh and BT is just dropping good draft picks to raise the bar and we are sinking. It seems like the sutter area all over again. Now I know that removing the GM might not be any better than changing coaches every 2 yrs but time for new blood in the management office or grow some and make the hard decisions.  Last time on here again don't need or appreciate the disrespect enjoy your click

Hey guys, my opinion may differ from yours but that’s what debate on these forums are for. It would be a pretty boring place if we all shared the exact same opinion. In fact, that’s exactly what happened here not too long ago when we were almost all on the same page regarding the team and the way Wardo was coaching/scratching players. I sure as H-E-double-hockey-sticks don’t have all the answers, and quite frankly it’s usually posts that have an opposing opinion to mine that remind me of things I’ve forgotten or hadn’t considered along the way. The back and forth is not only informative but entertaining as well. I can say quite candidly that robrob and I have very similar views and ideas, but we also debate our differences of opinion here as well. I also have a lot of respect for JJ here because he’s very firm on his belief as to what this team needs - despite the opposition he receives (even from me) here - he sticks to his guns and makes some valid points and arguments. Quite frankly, we’ve got a lot of passionate flames fans here and I love reading everything from everyone here. I know how most of you feel about my Eichel obsession lately because you’ve responded - good or bad, agree or disagree, it’s all good.
 

This is our team. This is our common ground. We all want this team to win a cup and we all have our opinions about how to get there. It’s all good folks - please keep contributing because I want to hear what you have to say. 🍻

[cross16]

Whether or not Treliving should be fired is a very fair question and I think both sides have sound arguments. I still lean towards No but there are good reasons for the yes side too namely the results as there surely has been GMs in the league fired for less. I don’t personally believe they will fire him this off-season but I was wrong on Ward so what do I really know 🤷‍♂️
 

However, this is no longer the question for me. For me it’s time for a far more in depth analysis on the franchise and it’s operations. The Flames have basically followed the same model now for over 20 years and where has it gotten them? Sure fire Treliving but does anyone really believe that’s going to change anything? It’s time to go deeper and imo I think the Flames need to revisit the President of Hockey Ops model. I think they need someone who can really challenge and push the organization, keep the owners at bay and work to set realistic goals and time frames. Even when the flames used this model they really didn’t leverage it to the way they should. They brought in someone who fit with existing beliefs and honestly im of the opinion they hired Burke more as a consultant than anything. 
 

it be a bit controversial but I’d like to see them adopt this and hire Mike Gillis as the president and then let him set up the organization. You can criticize his GM record but where I think he got it right is he leveraged aspect of sport science, analytics and really pooled as many resources as he could to make his teams and organizations better and for the most part it worked. I think that’s what I’d like to see the flames do, go with more of a forward thinker and have a role that can constantly evaluate how your org is running and makes changes. It’s way too difficult of a job for a GM to do this. 
 

I doubt this is going to happen due to budget reasons but I think it’s past due for the flames to really evaluate how their organization functions. If they did I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion it’s functioning at the highest level, so stop just repeating the same process over and over again. 

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Whether or not Treliving should be fired is a very fair question and I think both sides have sound arguments. I still lean towards No but there are good reasons for the yes side too namely the results as there surely has been GMs in the league fired for less. I don’t personally believe they will fire him this off-season but I was wrong on Ward so what do I really know 🤷‍♂️
 

However, this is no longer the question for me. For me it’s time for a far more in depth analysis on the franchise and it’s operations. The Flames have basically followed the same model now for over 20 years and where has it gotten them? Sure fire Treliving but does anyone really believe that’s going to change anything? It’s time to go deeper and imo I think the Flames need to revisit the President of Hockey Ops model. I think they need someone who can really challenge and push the organization, keep the owners at bay and work to set realistic goals and time frames. Even when the flames used this model they really didn’t leverage it to the way they should. They brought in someone who fit with existing beliefs and honestly im of the opinion they hired Burke more as a consultant than anything. 
 

it be a bit controversial but I’d like to see them adopt this and hire Mike Gillis as the president and then let him set up the organization. You can criticize his GM record but where I think he got it right is he leveraged aspect of sport science, analytics and really pooled as many resources as he could to make his teams and organizations better and for the most part it worked. I think that’s what I’d like to see the flames do, go with more of a forward thinker and have a role that can constantly evaluate how your org is running and makes changes. It’s way too difficult of a job for a GM to do this. 
 

I doubt this is going to happen due to budget reasons but I think it’s past due for the flames to really evaluate how their organization functions. If they did I don’t know how you can come to the conclusion it’s functioning at the highest level, so stop just repeating the same process over and over again. 

 

i think you’re right, plus the organization was doing so poorly that they needed someone with a reputation to level the sinking ship that when BT came on board it slowly became a breath of fresh air. 
 

things are starting to arise again that were  going on prior to BT. Is it BT, the organization, or all of the above? 
 

I have mixed reviews of BT, but also know he has to work with some constraints from the organization. But also believe he’s got mixed results and a lot argue that so does 20-30 other GM’s. 
I still think the team is a mess and a part of it being small skilled players. I’ve been told it’s not because of that on here, but I just think when the going gets tough, our guys stop going because the best offensive spaces gets harder to get to, especially as smaller players.

[cross16]

I am of the opinion that the goals and mandate of the organization are ones that incentivize short term thinking. For me the biggest beef with Treliving is the trading of so many quality picks. While this is a fair critique I’m skeptical that was his decision alone and him not just simply following the mandate. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I am of the opinion that the goals and mandate of the organization are ones that incentivize short term thinking. For me the biggest beef with Treliving is the trading of so many quality picks. While this is a fair critique I’m skeptical that was his decision alone and him not just simply following the mandate. 

 

i can definitely agree with this! It could be why Sutter was so erratic with picks too. I am not sure if it’s a dislike for young players at that time as much as the teams mandate to win now meant they needed veterans (in a veteran run league at the time).

 

 

[cross16]

19 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

i can definitely agree with this! It could be why Sutter was so erratic with picks too. I am not sure if it’s a dislike for young players at that time as much as the teams mandate to win now meant they needed veterans (in a veteran run league at the time).

 

 

i think it’s that the organization always wants to win now but that keeps that them from being an asset rich organization. Only currency you are left with is picks. 

[sak22]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

I still think the team is a mess and a part of it being small skilled players. I’ve been told it’s not because of that on here, but I just think when the going gets tough, our guys stop going because the best offensive spaces gets harder to get to, especially as smaller players.

I don't see this as much by design.  Outside of Valimaki, Tkachuk, Andersson and Bennett so far the only guys they've hit on are the smaller guys, maybe Ruzicka, Pospisil and Kuznetsov change that a little, the scouting team obviously felt higher about 6'4' Mitch Mattson and 6'2' Eetu Tuulola than they did 5'7 Matthew Phillips but the first hasn't even performed in college and the last is the best chance to make it, can't say we haven't looked for size through the draft.  Haven't hit in the draft on the bigger guys, instead have overpaid on the free market for them and been disappointed.

[robrob74]

24 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I don't see this as much by design.  Outside of Valimaki, Tkachuk, Andersson and Bennett so far the only guys they've hit on are the smaller guys, maybe Ruzicka, Pospisil and Kuznetsov change that a little, the scouting team obviously felt higher about 6'4' Mitch Mattson and 6'2' Eetu Tuulola than they did 5'7 Matthew Phillips but the first hasn't even performed in college and the last is the best chance to make it, can't say we haven't looked for size through the draft.  Haven't hit in the draft on the bigger guys, instead have overpaid on the free market for them and been disappointed.

 

its very true. Harder to scout bigger players as being bigger at younger ages allows you to dominate smaller or younger players. They get passed on depth charts more rapidly after they’ve aged out and go pro. 

[tmac70]

5 hours ago, lou44291 said:

 

Hey guys, my opinion may differ from yours but that’s what debate on these forums are for. It would be a pretty boring place if we all shared the exact same opinion. In fact, that’s exactly what happened here not too long ago when we were almost all on the same page regarding the team and the way Wardo was coaching/scratching players. I sure as H-E-double-hockey-sticks don’t have all the answers, and quite frankly it’s usually posts that have an opposing opinion to mine that remind me of things I’ve forgotten or hadn’t considered along the way. The back and forth is not only informative but entertaining as well. I can say quite candidly that robrob and I have very similar views and ideas, but we also debate our differences of opinion here as well. I also have a lot of respect for JJ here because he’s very firm on his belief as to what this team needs - despite the opposition he receives (even from me) here - he sticks to his guns and makes some valid points and arguments. Quite frankly, we’ve got a lot of passionate flames fans here and I love reading everything from everyone here. I know how most of you feel about my Eichel obsession lately because you’ve responded - good or bad, agree or disagree, it’s all good.
 

This is our team. This is our common ground. We all want this team to win a cup and we all have our opinions about how to get there. It’s all good folks - please keep contributing because I want to hear what you have to say. 🍻

I don't disagree but I think he is feeling singled out or discrimated against, which should never be the case for anyone regardless of their positions.  We can all agree to disagree but be respectful. 

[robrob74]

25 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

I don't disagree but I think he is feeling singled out or discrimated against, which should never be the case for anyone regardless of their positions.  We can all agree to disagree but be respectful. 

 

that is true too. 

[tmac70]

57 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

its very true. Harder to scout bigger players as being bigger at younger ages allows you to dominate smaller or younger players. They get passed on depth charts more rapidly after they’ve aged out and go pro. 

For me its poor drafting,trades and asset management. Not in specific order but here are some examples:

1) Hamilton trade good player actually very good never fit in the room? You have employees with ties to Boston would have been easy to figure out personality traits if asked.

2) Hamonic the assets given to him when once again terrible fit

3) Player development look no further than Bennett

4) Picks, Smaller skilled players in a larger team divison. 

5) Local talent. This one concerned me the most. Braden Point. Calgary kid played Junior Hockey in the next province, Head coach a FLAMES ALUMNI !!!!. I asked TIm about pointer and his thoughts on Bradens trajectory to the NHL. Exact words`That kid is going to thrive and excel in that league no question. So we took Bennett at 4th, Mason Macdonald at 34th, Hunter Smith at 54, and Hickey at 64th Braden Point was drafted 79th. We have one guy on the team from 4 and his is a plug. Now I get many other GMs passed on him but based on the ability to get inside information from a local kid and a past player and coach is unacceptable. Point would easily be your 1st line center and franchise player. Plus there are multiple other players that have played locally that have been missed. 

 

6)Coaches well the stories speak for them GG, Peters, Ward. Sutter is the only coach that has a pedigree and I would venture to guess this was a management request not his. 

7) Last but not leaset culture. You can not tell me that as th GM of this circus you never had a pulse on the poor culture and work ethic of this team. The team you have iced is yours and its grossly over estimated on talent, work ethic and skill. 

 

Based on this anaylsis, I would releive you of your duties. 

 

[pikey7883]

42 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

For me its poor drafting,trades and asset management. Not in specific order but here are some examples:

1) Hamilton trade good player actually very good never fit in the room? You have employees with ties to Boston would have been easy to figure out personality traits if asked.

2) Hamonic the assets given to him when once again terrible fit

3) Player development look no further than Bennett

4) Picks, Smaller skilled players in a larger team divison. 

5) Local talent. This one concerned me the most. Braden Point. Calgary kid played Junior Hockey in the next province, Head coach a FLAMES ALUMNI !!!!. I asked TIm about pointer and his thoughts on Bradens trajectory to the NHL. Exact words`That kid is going to thrive and excel in that league no question. So we took Bennett at 4th, Mason Macdonald at 34th, Hunter Smith at 54, and Hickey at 64th Braden Point was drafted 79th. We have one guy on the team from 4 and his is a plug. Now I get many other GMs passed on him but based on the ability to get inside information from a local kid and a past player and coach is unacceptable. Point would easily be your 1st line center and franchise player. Plus there are multiple other players that have played locally that have been missed. 

 

6)Coaches well the stories speak for them GG, Peters, Ward. Sutter is the only coach that has a pedigree and I would venture to guess this was a management request not his. 

7) Last but not leaset culture. You can not tell me that as th GM of this circus you never had a pulse on the poor culture and work ethic of this team. The team you have iced is yours and its grossly over estimated on talent, work ethic and skill. 

 

Based on this anaylsis, I would releive you of your duties. 

 

I get most of your points. I think his willingness to trade draft picks to try and fill spots immediately has been a downfall of his. Especially the hamonic trade, that was a terrible use of draft picks and poor asset management.

I also would say that in the past he was terrible at UFA signings, but it seems like this year he hit pretty good with Tanev and Marky, whether you think they should be here at this point in the flames timeframe (that’s a different debate), but they were good value signings and have been playing great for this team. 
I do want to address your comments about the 2014 draft. Of course we would rather have Point on our team, that’s not a question. But you also say he is guilty of only drafting smallish players, but in his first draft (whether it was his choice or burkies) he swung for the fences with Hunter Smith in the hopes for the next lucic. It didn’t work and maybe that made him a little gunshy about project draft picks, which is why we’ve seen a number of draft picks that are all the same, safe, low risk, low reward picks with Dube, Mang, Ruzicka, Phillips, Peltier. They’re all high motor guys, lots of heart. But don’t have the size, they’re all safe  picks. 
All GMs have hits and misses, with trades, signings, and draft picks; that’s to be expected. I just wanna see the progression of a GM the same way we expect of players, and for me I have seen that. 

[MP5029]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

i think you’re right, plus the organization was doing so poorly that they needed someone with a reputation to level the sinking ship that when BT came on board it slowly became a breath of fresh air. 
 

things are starting to arise again that were  going on prior to BT. Is it BT, the organization, or all of the above? 
 

I have mixed reviews of BT, but also know he has to work with some constraints from the organization. But also believe he’s got mixed results and a lot argue that so does 20-30 other GM’s. 
I still think the team is a mess and a part of it being small skilled players. I’ve been told it’s not because of that on here, but I just think when the going gets tough, our guys stop going because the best offensive spaces gets harder to get to, especially as smaller players.

Exactly right no totally agree and well

said about the too many small

skilled guys on the team, it’s an obvious issue, which you pointed out so well...I mean really

 

Gaudreau

Manji

Dube 

 

are our energy guys, which we all love but they really can’t move a 6’+ 200 lbs + guy from the opposition’s net, rather they get crushed by that...it really shows when you look at the game Stats, the little box in front of the goalie is really where most goals are scored, but Cgy’s shots are on the outside and top of the circles...where did they score mostly last night inside those circles, also where did WPG, Edm and Tor score from...mostly that little box between the two circles and in front of the opposition net...again if you look back to Mlt a few years ago with small

skilled players that’s the problem they had, and we have now...Mlt is doing so much better with big guys like Anderson for example...vs a few years ago with smaller more skilled guys...anyway, all I’m saying is, if you look at things, we have too much small skill and not enough power Fwd’s and it shows when you look at where goals are scored from 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I get most of your points. I think his willingness to trade draft picks to try and fill spots immediately has been a downfall of his. Especially the hamonic trade, that was a terrible use of draft picks and poor asset management.

I also would say that in the past he was terrible at UFA signings, but it seems like this year he hit pretty good with Tanev and Marky, whether you think they should be here at this point in the flames timeframe (that’s a different debate), but they were good value signings and have been playing great for this team. 
I do want to address your comments about the 2014 draft. Of course we would rather have Point on our team, that’s not a question. But you also say he is guilty of only drafting smallish players, but in his first draft (whether it was his choice or burkies) he swung for the fences with Hunter Smith in the hopes for the next lucic. It didn’t work and maybe that made him a little gunshy about project draft picks, which is why we’ve seen a number of draft picks that are all the same, safe, low risk, low reward picks with Dube, Mang, Ruzicka, Phillips, Peltier. They’re all high motor guys, lots of heart. But don’t have the size, they’re all safe  picks. 
All GMs have hits and misses, with trades, signings, and draft picks; that’s to be expected. I just wanna see the progression of a GM the same way we expect of players, and for me I have seen that. 

i don’t know anything about the last draft but for me it felt like a lose of a day. I guess we will see. But I think the last few drafts haven’t been as good as earlier ones. We might have found some NHLers, and we could possibly be ruining Valamaki in the process this year. He might have needed a bit of AHL time. It seems for every success there is a a few failures for this GM.

[travel_dude]

18 hours ago, tmac70 said:

For me its poor drafting,trades and asset management. Not in specific order but here are some examples:

1) Hamilton trade good player actually very good never fit in the room? You have employees with ties to Boston would have been easy to figure out personality traits if asked.

2) Hamonic the assets given to him when once again terrible fit

3) Player development look no further than Bennett

4) Picks, Smaller skilled players in a larger team divison. 

5) Local talent. This one concerned me the most. Braden Point. Calgary kid played Junior Hockey in the next province, Head coach a FLAMES ALUMNI !!!!. I asked TIm about pointer and his thoughts on Bradens trajectory to the NHL. Exact words`That kid is going to thrive and excel in that league no question. So we took Bennett at 4th, Mason Macdonald at 34th, Hunter Smith at 54, and Hickey at 64th Braden Point was drafted 79th. We have one guy on the team from 4 and his is a plug. Now I get many other GMs passed on him but based on the ability to get inside information from a local kid and a past player and coach is unacceptable. Point would easily be your 1st line center and franchise player. Plus there are multiple other players that have played locally that have been missed. 

 

6)Coaches well the stories speak for them GG, Peters, Ward. Sutter is the only coach that has a pedigree and I would venture to guess this was a management request not his. 

7) Last but not leaset culture. You can not tell me that as th GM of this circus you never had a pulse on the poor culture and work ethic of this team. The team you have iced is yours and its grossly over estimated on talent, work ethic and skill. 

 

Based on this anaylsis, I would releive you of your duties. 

 

 

I will cut BT some slack on a few things you have listed.  They were based on Burke decisions, not BT.

Hickey was not a bad choice at the time, but it seemed like after the draft BT knew he wasn't panning out.  

More teams than not missed out on Point and Arviddson.

Blame that draft on Burke though.

[robrob74]

27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I will cut BT some slack on a few things you have listed.  They were based on Burke decisions, not BT.

Hickey was not a bad choice at the time, but it seemed like after the draft BT knew he wasn't panning out.  

More teams than not missed out on Point and Arviddson.

Blame that draft on Burke though.

 

Maybe they had Point on their list but a round later, like they had for Kucherov. I think if you like a guy, you should just go for them. I wouldn't say they liked Gaudreau less than others, just that he was a gamble to pick higher due to the trends of the time. At that time small was a probably fail or bust. Since they missed out on Kucherov I think they realized they needed to take Johnny sooner because they didn't want to miss out on him. 

 

I can agree with Tmac here. It really just sounds like scouts liked him, just that they have their guys they "can't miss out on." So it's not necessarily that the player isn't on all of the teams' radars, it's just their gamble to take them at certain times in the draft. Like Tmac said, his scout friend or conversation seemed to think that Point was going to be a very good NHLer. I am not a talent analyzer. I just watch, but still want this organization to do better. Like somone said recently, they tend to go safe picks. It seems like the Flames MO for 20 years.

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

Maybe they had Point on their list but a round later, like they had for Kucherov. I think if you like a guy, you should just go for them. I wouldn't say they liked Gaudreau less than others, just that he was a gamble to pick higher due to the trends of the time. At that time small was a probably fail or bust. Since they missed out on Kucherov I think they realized they needed to take Johnny sooner because they didn't want to miss out on him. 

 

I can agree with Tmac here. It really just sounds like scouts liked him, just that they have their guys they "can't miss out on." So it's not necessarily that the player isn't on all of the teams' radars, it's just their gamble to take them at certain times in the draft. Like Tmac said, his scout friend or conversation seemed to think that Point was going to be a very good NHLer. I am not a talent analyzer. I just watch, but still want this organization to do better. Like somone said recently, they tend to go safe picks. It seems like the Flames MO for 20 years.

 

 

I think things changes after that 2014 draft year.

Feaster and Biesbrook (whatever) made the decisions themselves on Gaudreau, Janko and such.

Didn't matter what the scouts said.

Burke obviously had decided he was smarter than Button and the rest, cuz nobody thought Hunter Smith was anything.

The following year, we had Kanzig, Gilmour and Harrison.  

Questionable drafting that year; Burkie said he loved all three 1st round picks.

Was BT or the scouts deciding anything?

 

BT isn't really a hockey guy himself.  He would lean on his pro and amateur scouts.

Drafting would be opinions that are weighted out.

Trades are based on pro scouts.

We seem to suck the most at that aspect.

Too many failed trades/signings.

Bolig, Mayray, Brouwer, Neal, Stone, Lazar, Smith, Hamonic, Chris Stewart, Bart-man, Lack, Forbort, Lucic (no better than Neal for the money)....

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think things changes after that 2014 draft year.

Feaster and Biesbrook (whatever) made the decisions themselves on Gaudreau, Janko and such.

Didn't matter what the scouts said.

Burke obviously had decided he was smarter than Button and the rest, cuz nobody thought Hunter Smith was anything.

The following year, we had Kanzig, Gilmour and Harrison.  

Questionable drafting that year; Burkie said he loved all three 1st round picks.

Was BT or the scouts deciding anything?

 

BT isn't really a hockey guy himself.  He would lean on his pro and amateur scouts.

Drafting would be opinions that are weighted out.

Trades are based on pro scouts.

We seem to suck the most at that aspect.

Too many failed trades/signings.

Bolig, Mayray, Brouwer, Neal, Stone, Lazar, Smith, Hamonic, Chris Stewart, Bart-man, Lack, Forbort, Lucic (no better than Neal for the money)....

 

 

Didn't BT play in the AHL? He played to Junior at least. I just looked and he played in the WHL, BCJHL, AHL, IHL, ECHL. Looks like he jumped around a lot. Does that still not make him a hockey guy? He had 15 games in the AHL and the rest were all lower tier leagues. 

 

Brad Treliving Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

And god, I could have said a big no to Mason Raymond at the time. A lot on here said Hamonic was washed up. A lot of those other ones were bad too. We wasted a 2nd on Lazar. Smith was ok, but we had already spent so much on goaltending by then and if you're spending that much there should have been one to stick. I was thinking the same with the Pro-Scouting for this team. Maybe it's not a good idea to do a trade for johnny and monny. He did good on the Hamilton to the Canes though...

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Didn't BT play in the AHL? He played to Junior at least. I just looked and he played in the WHL, BCJHL, AHL, IHL, ECHL. Looks like he jumped around a lot. Does that still not make him a hockey guy? He had 15 games in the AHL and the rest were all lower tier leagues. 

 

Brad Treliving Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

And god, I could have said a big no to Mason Raymond at the time. A lot on here said Hamonic was washed up. A lot of those other ones were bad too. We wasted a 2nd on Lazar. Smith was ok, but we had already spent so much on goaltending by then and if you're spending that much there should have been one to stick. I was thinking the same with the Pro-Scouting for this team. Maybe it's not a good idea to do a trade for johnny and monny. He did good on the Hamilton to the Canes though...

 

Lots of guys that played minor (and pro) hockey I would never trust to making decisions.

I mean Burke is a hockey guy.

May not agree with him on a lot of matters, but he is a smart executive.

 

Apparently, the likes of Mayray, Hamonic and Lazar impressed the pro staff.

Most of us here had strong opinions about all of them, especially Neal and Lucic.

But we don't have to overrule the scouts' opinions and walk away.

Do I blame him for sign/trades?

Only because he made the deal.

I wouldn't say he was capable of making the decisions to go after player X.

[cross16]

I think it's very fair to question why the Flames were not higher on Brayden Point in the draft, I've asked the same thing. However, I also don't think it's fair to put it on Treliving because 2014 draft was a Burke draft. I've heard him say he told the scouts before that draft he wanted to find a Tom Wilson, and he also said he wanted them taking goalies in the first 2 rounds because that's where you get good goalies. An incoming GM almost never has influence on their first draft because once they get there the work is already 80% done. If you look at Point in his draft year he was a template for the type of player Treliving and the Flames have started to target in later rounds. Point was small and not a great skater but he was skilled, competitive and high character. You can write that exact scouting report for a good third of the players the Flames have drafted under Treliving. There has been a pretty big shift on the Flames drafting under Treliving then previous regimes. 

 

Pro scouting is a concern I share as well and I think an area the Flames could do better. I think they could leverage analytics more and do a better job of finding guys who want to play their way but I also don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be. The Lazar and Elliott trades are the 2 big ones for me. In the case of Lazar I really question why the scouts who watched him thought he could make the impact to justify a 2nd rounder and I think there could have been more analysis done around Elliott. Brouwer's another name you could throw in there that I think more analysis could have swayed that decision.

 

But at the end of the days these still come down to the fundamental question of what is mandate that this club operates under. I have questions about those moves but at the same time the rationale for a GM doing them is understandable if the parameters of the club are that we must compete every year. 

[jjgallow]

 

The one saving grace of BT, along with other Flames GMs, is that we really don't know where this direction is coming from to constantly make in the moment moves with little regard for planning.

 

It's caught up with us in year 2 of what should have been 10 solid years after a rebuild.

 

My justification for blaming BT is that he took the job, he fired the coaches, he moved the players.  But yes, I'm hoping that another GM can do better and that is but only a hope.   that a new GM can either make better decisions, or knock some sense into whoever is giving this direction.

[Thebrewcrew]

https://www.tsn.ca/calgary-flames-brad-treliving-after-underperforming-this-season-we-all-have-to-own-it-1.1619924

 

I expected BT to say exactly what he did, however I did find it a bit interesting that he kind of dodged the question regarding whether he expects the Flames to contend next year. Again, I didn't think for a second he would say they are entering a rebuild, I just think it was a chance for him to say he thinks next year is a chance for a rebound season and he didn't. The fact that he didn't say they expect to contend next year was interesting to me, although maybe I'm reading too much into it.  

 

 

[rickross]

10 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

https://www.tsn.ca/calgary-flames-brad-treliving-after-underperforming-this-season-we-all-have-to-own-it-1.1619924

 

I expected BT to say exactly what he did, however I did find it a bit interesting that he kind of dodged the question regarding whether he expects the Flames to contend next year. Again, I didn't think for a second he would say they are entering a rebuild, I just think it was a chance for him to say he thinks next year is a chance for a rebound season and he didn't. The fact that he didn't say they expect to contend next year was interesting to me, although maybe I'm reading too much into it.  

 

 

I think BT has learned his lesson about announcing the teams expectations prematurely and proclaiming what this team is. He labelled us a contender as recently as last season, after acquiring Hamonic he proclaimed the team had a 2-3 year window to win the Cup.
 

Well...we’ve never come close to getting passed the 1st round and now we’re not playoff bound and looking like a likely top 5 drafting team. I don’t think your reading too deep into it, I think just like us, BT has no real clue what he has for a team yet.