Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[sak22]

Devils advocate on the coach thing.  We are cheaping out, but even the coaches listed have limitations.  Why did Gallant get fired and no real drop off with Deboer.  The others Boudreau, Lavy all have known shelf lives.  The issue I have as well is we don't have the Jon Cooper's, Sheldon Keefes, or Jared Bednars or even a Rod the Bod.  It was something we once tried with Playfair briefly, but ever since all we graduate from the AHL are assistants.  I'm not trying to say the organization is right for not going to the proven coach route, but not developing one to potentially take the reigns internally is also a major weakness in the organization IMO.

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Devils advocate on the coach thing.  We are cheaping out, but even the coaches listed have limitations.  Why did Gallant get fired and no real drop off with Deboer.  The others Boudreau, Lavy all have known shelf lives.  The issue I have as well is we don't have the Jon Cooper's, Sheldon Keefes, or Jared Bednars or even a Rod the Bod.  It was something we once tried with Playfair briefly, but ever since all we graduate from the AHL are assistants.  I'm not trying to say the organization is right for not going to the proven coach route, but not developing one to potentially take the reigns internally is also a major weakness in the organization IMO.

this is a fair and interesting point but at the same time I would counter and say how many good or very good coaches really are their? 
so much of hiring a coach is not just their skill set but how does that skill set line up with your group. I think there is a reason so few coaches can be considered great and have success wherever they go. 
This is the same as the goalie argument for me, is there any franchise that really has it figured out? I’m not sure there is a blueprint. 

[JTech780]

I am not saying we should move on from Treliving, but if they do my short list is Chris MacFarland or Mark Hunter.

 

MacFarland is the AGM in Colorado, and IMO that Avalanche team is setup to have a really long window of competitive hockey. I like a lot of what they have done with that team.

 

Mark Hunter did a lot of good things with the Leafs and probably should have gotten the job over Dubas.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, MP5029 said:

I know, it’s like they have copied the old Mlt template of building a team...skilled and fast little guys...which clearly won’t win...

 

I mean I’m not a huge dude myself but even I know, a hockey team of guys under 6’ is only gonna get pushed around and banged up...

 

1-2 skilled fast gritty guys is fine but we have a ton of them...let me ask this, who is the power forward on their team? I guess Lucic is but he’s a depth guy, we need at least 1 if not 3 skilled fast, agile power forwards in the top 3 lines, we have none which is the majors issue up front I think...that and RHS RW’s as a whole 

 

Andrew Mangiapane. 

[Thebrewcrew]

8 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I am not saying we should move on from Treliving, but if they do my short list is Chris MacFarland or Mark Hunter.

 

MacFarland is the AGM in Colorado, and IMO that Avalanche team is setup to have a really long window of competitive hockey. I like a lot of what they have done with that team.

 

Mark Hunter did a lot of good things with the Leafs and probably should have gotten the job over Dubas.

Those are two good names. If there was a change, I'd really want Hunter, I think he's got a keen eye for finding talent, former Flame too, kinda neat. I'd also be interested in Futa as well.

 

I think ownership would take a long look at Conroy too.

 

 

That being said, I think the GM is relatively safe. People won't like that, but the Flames have made the playoffs two consecutive seasons. Ownership's mandate is to make the playoffs and BT has done that. I'm also not sure what the appetite is to pay BT to stay home, after being crushed by the pandemic. 

[MP5029]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

Andrew Mangiapane. 

Lmao 😂 

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Lmao 😂 

 

he is the only guy that seems to take that puck in to the dirty areas, when he has the chance, line on that goal he recently scored cutting from right to left through the slot.

[MP5029]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

he is the only guy that seems to take that puck in to the dirty areas, when he has the chance, line on that goal he recently scored cutting from right to left through the slot.

I get it but the irony is he’s too small for a PWR forward, which is not good it will shorten his career...he’s a bit of a Theo Fleury (probably not quite as good, but similar in many ways)

 

point is we need a few big strong but also skilled forwards...like seriously why the hell is Lucic not doing that...plans his Hash Rate in front of the opposition’s net? Makes no sense! 

[pikey7883]

6 hours ago, MP5029 said:

I know, it’s like they have copied the old Mlt template of building a team...skilled and fast little guys...which clearly won’t win...

 

I mean I’m not a huge dude myself but even I know, a hockey team of guys under 6’ is only gonna get pushed around and banged up...

 

1-2 skilled fast gritty guys is fine but we have a ton of them...let me ask this, who is the power forward on their team? I guess Lucic is but he’s a depth guy, we need at least 1 if not 3 skilled fast, agile power forwards in the top 3 lines, we have none which is the majors issue up front I think...that and RHS RW’s as a whole 

I suggested a trade for Julien Gauthier, I think he is being under utilized on a pretty deep Rangers Lineup. He will never “be the guy” but he’s a big body who can skate and shoot the puck. He’s also young and needs to learn how to play the physical game, probably would be good to learn from someone like Looch.

But everyone thinks he is just a big guy who is too good for the AHL and not good enough for the NHL, so what do I know. 

[Thebrewcrew]

If I’m Treliving, I’m talking to ownership and saying there’s two ways to go about the remainder of this season.

 

1. Make a coaching change. I get that they’ve went through a lot of coaches. But if you wanna  salvage this thing, it’s the only real card you have to play. A trade isn’t really an option, if you wanna compete for a playoff spot, with the quarantine. 

 

2. If ownership won’t sign off on a coaching change, they need to be prepared to see Gaudreau traded. Status quo likely doesn’t get you into the playoffs, even with Ottawa on the schedule. You have the opportunity to sell 2 playoff runs of Gaudreau.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

If I’m Treliving, I’m talking to ownership and saying there’s two ways to go about the remainder of this season.

 

1. Make a coaching change. I get that they’ve went through a lot of coaches. But if you wanna  salvage this thing, it’s the only real card you have to play. A trade isn’t really an option, if you wanna compete for a playoff spot, with the quarantine. 

 

2. If ownership won’t sign off on a coaching change, they need to be prepared to see Gaudreau traded. Status quo likely doesn’t get you into the playoffs, even with Ottawa on the schedule. You have the opportunity to sell 2 playoff runs of Gaudreau.

 

Ownership probably already talked to BT before hand.  You've hired how many coaches now?  And you want another one?

[redfire11]

If ownership brings in a new GM That GM will replace Ward. I am a supporter of BT but will quickly turn against him if he doesn't improve the coaching staff.

[travel_dude]

10 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

If I’m Treliving, I’m talking to ownership and saying there’s two ways to go about the remainder of this season.

 

1. Make a coaching change. I get that they’ve went through a lot of coaches. But if you wanna  salvage this thing, it’s the only real card you have to play. A trade isn’t really an option, if you wanna compete for a playoff spot, with the quarantine. 

 

2. If ownership won’t sign off on a coaching change, they need to be prepared to see Gaudreau traded. Status quo likely doesn’t get you into the playoffs, even with Ottawa on the schedule. You have the opportunity to sell 2 playoff runs of Gaudreau.

 

What changed so drastically with this team that we went from a team able to compete to a team that looks lost?

The reasons for losing so badly seem to be so simple to everyone including the coach.

Yet, we see nothing different in the prep for the game.

Either the message is lost during the first shift that goes wrong, and the team crumbles....

Or the message is completely wrong.

Or the lines are so completely messed up, there is no chance they will work.

 

The first reason falls to the players, but the coach has a hand in managing the rest of the game.

Call a timeout, swap the goalie or use the TV timeout to inforce the message.

SIt the players involved in the play and talk to them as a group.

Saying this, it has to be done at the right time.

Waiting until you are lit up is too late.

 

The second reason is all on coaching.

Get pucks in deep?

Win the individual battles?

Skate hard?

Dump and chase?

I don't know what the message is, but it may not be the right one for this group.

 

Third reason has a ring of truth to it.

All we heard about was moving Lindholm to C and having depth there.

That's great and all, but at what cost?

Top line held off the score sheet too often.

2nd line has a new RW every game.

Backlund supposed to be a top shutdown C with Lucic as a winger.

4th line a black hole without Ryan.

 

The GM has a part to play in the results.  He hired the coach seeing the playoff games.

He signed certain players for depth.

He talked about using Lindhiolm at C.

Gave the coach tools he thought would help.

 

The coach has to evaluate those pieces and find the way to make them work.

I fail to see a coach that can do that.

5 game eastern swing coming up.

3 against Ottawa and 2 against the Leafs.

Followed by 2 more against Ottawa and 1 at EDM.

Anything less than 3 wins on the 5 game roadie is a complete failure.

Even 3 wins proves nothing. 

Need to be winning 4/5 for the next few weeks just to crawl back up the standings.

 

March 8th is the decision point for BT.

Either we are back on message and things are normal (6 wins minimum out of 8 ) or we are barely winning the games we should win. 

If you are wanting to compete for the playoffs, you have to pull the trigger then.

 

[robrob74]

I think this team has always been like this. Even in the year we came in first in the West. I was the only one that was critical of their wins. Their possession numbers were good but there was something off. Having slow starts and coming from behind too often. The effort was lacking. They had this idea that they could flip a switch and had enough talent to comeback. They do sometimes, but the fact they needed to do that hurts in the end and when it matters most, it becomes even harder to do it. 

[pikey7883]

32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What changed so drastically with this team that we went from a team able to compete to a team that looks lost?

The reasons for losing so badly seem to be so simple to everyone including the coach.

Yet, we see nothing different in the prep for the game.

Either the message is lost during the first shift that goes wrong, and the team crumbles....

Or the message is completely wrong.

Or the lines are so completely messed up, there is no chance they will work.

 

The first reason falls to the players, but the coach has a hand in managing the rest of the game.

Call a timeout, swap the goalie or use the TV timeout to inforce the message.

SIt the players involved in the play and talk to them as a group.

Saying this, it has to be done at the right time.

Waiting until you are lit up is too late.

 

The second reason is all on coaching.

Get pucks in deep?

Win the individual battles?

Skate hard?

Dump and chase?

I don't know what the message is, but it may not be the right one for this group.

 

Third reason has a ring of truth to it.

All we heard about was moving Lindholm to C and having depth there.

That's great and all, but at what cost?

Top line held off the score sheet too often.

2nd line has a new RW every game.

Backlund supposed to be a top shutdown C with Lucic as a winger.

4th line a black hole without Ryan.

 

The GM has a part to play in the results.  He hired the coach seeing the playoff games.

He signed certain players for depth.

He talked about using Lindhiolm at C.

Gave the coach tools he thought would help.

 

The coach has to evaluate those pieces and find the way to make them work.

I fail to see a coach that can do that.

5 game eastern swing coming up.

3 against Ottawa and 2 against the Leafs.

Followed by 2 more against Ottawa and 1 at EDM.

Anything less than 3 wins on the 5 game roadie is a complete failure.

Even 3 wins proves nothing. 

Need to be winning 4/5 for the next few weeks just to crawl back up the standings.

 

March 8th is the decision point for BT.

Either we are back on message and things are normal (6 wins minimum out of 8 ) or we are barely winning the games we should win. 

If you are wanting to compete for the playoffs, you have to pull the trigger then.

 

I actually think the time is now, the results of this road trip are going to be what their going to be. If you keep the coaches and the players with no changes are we expecting something different? If we fire the coach and make a trade or do something to wake this team up, does it make this road trip worse or better? I would argue they let the shackles off of this team without the current coaching staff. And have the new coach ready for our next home stand. 

[rickross]

We traded away all those picks to land Dougie Hamilton and Hamonic because Tre was convinced this team was a legit contender. None of those players are even on this team anymore and the Flames are playing some of...if not the worst hockey in the NHL right now. Tre does have some quality traits of a good GM but this team is nosediving in a hurry. It’s his team. He picked the coaches and players  and it’s starting to blow up in front of his face. 

[jjgallow]

On 2/21/2021 at 10:47 AM, travel_dude said:

What changed so drastically with this team that we went from a team able to compete to a team that looks lost?

 

For a while now, I've been saying that we've Not been able to compete for many years.   This becomes evident in the playoffs, which is the true measure of your team's strength.

 

We've been sparring for a while now, and your point has always been sample size.    It's just one game.  It's just one playoff series.  It's just one year.  You're being blinded by stats.

 

My point has always been look at the year to year similarities and how easily our team gets manipulated when games manner.   There is truth in numbers.

 

So you've always said something along the lines of we need more data to make the conclusion you're jumping to.

 

I would argue that we have the data now.

 

Consider the possibility that we were Never actually able to compete when it mattered.   And that is simply now spreading to the regular season as key players age.

 

 

Goaltending:   
We had lots of discussion about letting Calbot and his pennies salary go for the cap-killing Markstrom.

I said look Talbot has better stats, subtract his injury and he has Always had better stats.  By a LOT.

People said things like "everyone knows Markstrom is better", and "Talbot is old"

Right.     So like EVERY SINGLE YEAR,  Talbot is ahead of Markstrom and of course is right now.  Actually way ahead. 

Ranked 15th in the NHL  (Markstrom 35th).

And let's be honest, Talbot played for Very defensively poor teams.   
For him to have better numbers on the teams he was on speaks volumes or should.

 

So straight up, our Goals Against would be in the upper half of NHL rankings right now and we would have CAP space if we Simply weren't....stupid..and dropped the only goalie we had that was performing at all. 
That would Literally be the difference maker for us.   Literally nobody would be criticising Treliving right now (except me) if he had just got this one Simple, simple thing right.   And we'd be talking about playoffs instead of drafts.

 

And that's just One of his many bone-headed moves which made no sense then or now.   Again, this isn't a hindsight 20/20 thing.

Both Talbot and Markstrom are currently doing exactly what they have always done and what we should expect they'd do.

 

p.s....No goaltending plan, no goaltending pipeline.   Treliving will just keep renting out our most important position until he's fired because he Does not Get it.

 

Defence:    Adam Fox and Hamilton.   You know it was dumb.  I know it was dumb.   You like to provide objective reasons but it was Still dumb.   You ask me when I'm going to move forward and let it go.   My answer is ... Soon.  Very soon.   The moment Treliving is gone.  And my answer was the same the moment those trades happened.
Giordano and Brodie:  We get nothing.  And that is 100% Treliving.

 

Coaches:    I've already explained enough Treliving gaffes above to be the difference maker between us now, and us as a contender.   Here's another prediction.     When Ward gets fired, we're going to go on a ~10 game point streak and then sink Right back to where we are now with yet another dud coach.      You want to blame coaches fine, but how many has Treliving gone through?   It still points to the same place.  Let's just remember that the NHL track record of success by firing coaches is incredibly bleak.  Heck...if it worked, we'd be leading the NHL right now.

 

Right Wingers and Centers:    There aren't any.   That's a fireable offense of any GM, on its own.

 

Left Wingers:   This is where Treliving shines.  He has created the NHL's largest repository of talent in the NHL's least valuable position.    Somehow, Gaudreau briefly cracked top 10 scorers, and could have brought us real value back to alleviate some of Treliving's other mistakes.   He didn't act on this obvious move.  Of course.

 

 

 

Bottom line:   You can't win a Stanley Cup with left wingers.

 

Treliving needs to go.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

You're being blinded by stats.

 

Please stop using one line from people's posts to go into you long winded rants.

You are blinded by your own hatred of BT.

Now Talbot was the best thing BT did and he boobed by letting him go?

I thought getting a young goalie from nowhere was the only thing he should be doing.

 

I appreciate how you construct your arguments and the time and space you devote to your passion. 

Almost like a lawyer paid by the hour or a blogger paid by the column inch.

But everything you say is just to support your "Fire BT" theme.

Goalie good, fire BT, he is too old.

Goalie bad, fire BT he picked the wrong one.

Dougie wins the Norris and Stanley Cup, fire BT for trading him.

Sure, if that ever happens.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Please stop using one line from people's posts to go into you long winded rants.

You are blinded by your own hatred of BT.

Now Talbot was the best thing BT did and he boobed by letting him go?

I thought getting a young goalie from nowhere was the only thing he should be doing.

 

I appreciate how you construct your arguments and the time and space you devote to your passion. 

Almost like a lawyer paid by the hour or a blogger paid by the column inch.

But everything you say is just to support your "Fire BT" theme.

Goalie good, fire BT, he is too old.

Goalie bad, fire BT he picked the wrong one.

Dougie wins the Norris and Stanley Cup, fire BT for trading him.

Sure, if that ever happens.

 

well, you're doing the same thing with the coach.   we can do a word count if you like but if what you describe is me then you're somewhere around 8x that on any given week.

 

I'm just saying hey sure but how many coaches we gonna fire exactly?  we already know how that goes.

[ABC923]

Markstrom has played 15 games this season, Talbot only 7. We overworked the guy.  Up until his last two games, he was sporting a .924 save percentage through 13, almost the exact same as Talbot currently (.926).  

 

I will admit I preferred the thought of signing Talbot to a shorter and cheaper deal than Markstrom for cap reasons, but to suggest we would be ahead of where we are with Talbot instead of Markstrom is kinda silly.

[JTech780]

One way or another Treliving needs to come out and say something tomorrow. 

[ABC923]

Not sure what there is to say.  He failed to shake the core during the off-season the way he needed too. We got saddled with a subpar coach because no one better wanted to come here (imo, especially with the border closed). The team has no leadership, the players don’t like each other, their confidence is non existent. The season is lost, and all that’s left is to tank for last place, which can easily be done by doing nothing, no trades required.  There’s no fixing this in season, so what’s the GM gonna say? Ownership probably doesn’t even care this season, as making the playoffs won’t boost the bottom line with no fans in attendance, so they cut their losses by not firing anyone (since they would then have to pay someone else).

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, ABC923 said:

The season is lost, and all that’s left is to tank for last place, which can easily be done by doing nothing, no trades required.

 

If only it was that easy. 

 

You know we will pull off 4 wins in a row now and erase all doubt, temporarily.

[rickross]

14 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

If only it was that easy. 

 

You know we will pull off 4 wins in a row now and erase all doubt, temporarily.

 There’s no way this team wins 4 in a row lol. We are a 1 win streak team this year. Something stinks so bad with this team. Whatever is going on in that locker room is just toxic. It’s literally pure Jekyll and Hide with this team in the 2021

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, JTech780 said:

One way or another Treliving needs to come out and say something tomorrow. 

A 7-1, a 6-1 and a 5-1 loss on this trip.

None of the games looked inspired or well thought out.

The team has bailed on the coach and even on playing for each other.

Coaching sucks, leadership sucks.

Firing the coach is the easiest, but I think there's failure in coaching beyond just the head coach.

Defensive play most nights is a joke.

The PP looks designed by a child.

 

I believe the coach said the playoffs was the way he wanted the team to play defense.

That seems to be a complete lack of understanding.