Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

11 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Remember last year when we were a "bubble" team or not a playoff team at all?

Pepperidge Farms remembers.

 

[cross16]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I am completely with you on this. I don't bring him up because I don't want nor do we need a flashier, more expensive version of Kylington.

I have hopes that Meloche can be a Gudbranson replacement. I firmly believe that we targeted him. You don't sign guys just because. He's just turned 25, 6'3"/205lbs.

He's had 57 NHL games and 59PIMS, 10 of which are from fighting, so he doesn't penalty much.

Very much a stay-at-home D. He's the perfect age for a Dman to break out.

We always say Dmen take longer to develop, but then we forget we said that and say a 24yo in his first pro action is, "just a tweener".lol

Sutter turned Gudbranson into decent, I'm sure they put their sights on Meloche. Much cheaper, likely can match Gudbranson, still some upside there as he gets one of the best teachers in the game.

 

Before Weegar the Flames definitely needed some transition ability in their top 4 so I was interested in Klingberg for that. But now you have someone who is almost as good in transition and in zone offence as Klingberg PLUS the benefit that he can actually defend at an elite level, where Klingberg sucks at it.  There isn't room in the top 4 and I don't think you want Klingberg on you 3rd pairing. 

 

Just isn't a fit but I also don't think there is money to sign him even if there was. 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

The examples were players that "dreamed" of playing for CGY.  Taylor Hall with his PJ's.  LOL.

The big picture is that not every player born or raised in a particular city ends up ever playing there.  

If that was true, we would be stacked.

Arizona would have Matthews and Tkachuk.

Okay, so one of those is possible soon enough.

 

It's a gamble but so is drafting or signing any player without them taking a polygraph.

Even then, they probably convince themselves that they want to be here.

It was painfully obvious that a retool was necessary after two guys bolted.

If all we got from Tkachuk was Necas, a top prospect and a pick, then that's a bigger risk.

He's a piece you add to a good team, not a starting point.

 

Flames defense.  Bigger and deeper than last year.

Can't keep em all, so something comes of that.

BT always says that you build the team in the summer, so somethings coming.

Unlike some players, I doubt you see either of the new guys refusing to have negotiations during the season.

 

 

I disagree on the risk of prospects and picks, fundamentally, but that's maybe a conversation for another thread.   Also dependant on one's faith that the new guys will sign.

 

I do believe that if you really look at drafting and development, acquisition is not truely a risk issue (if your scouts and coaches are good).   It's a patience issue.   Do also keep in mind we are going into an incredibly deep draft and a Bedard lotto ticket would not have been the worst thing that ever happened to us.

 

On defense, yes we are improved, and I have no complaints about that, I'm actually really happy about it.   We can still be a lot better though.

[tmac70]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Soo easy to answer that now.  So much harder, when we're in the middle of it.

Why, the answer should be easy. In all honest it shows the character of what type of personality one is. I know what I would do, but my opinion would vary from others lol 

[conundrumed]

16 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I disagree on the risk of prospects and picks, fundamentally, but that's maybe a conversation for another thread.   Also dependant on one's faith that the new guys will sign.

 

I do believe that if you really look at drafting and development, acquisition is not truely a risk issue (if your scouts and coaches are good).   It's a patience issue.   Do also keep in mind we are going into an incredibly deep draft and a Bedard lotto ticket would not have been the worst thing that ever happened to us.

 

On defense, yes we are improved, and I have no complaints about that, I'm actually really happy about it.   We can still be a lot better though.

Are we? I've heard this one before. The scouting contingency that continually parlay whethe a draft is strong or weak are generally full of crap.

You can trend every draft based on strong/weak rumour and then redo the draft 5 years later and see that the guessing doesn't trend well.

Every draft has a strong potential, but that's really all that it is.

I'm really interested to see if Slafkovsky is Andrei or Evgeny Svechnikov, for example.

 

[conundrumed]

I'm kind of amazed looking around the intranet at Flames D potential rosters of people having Weegar as a 3rd pairing with Zadorov.

"Tell me you know nothing about Weegar without telling me that you know nothing about Weegar".lol

He was 20-25mins/gm with FLA and he's very good defensively, particularly disrupting the O rush.

At worst he's an excellent 3D behind Tanev and Andersson. At worst.

For me, ideally, I'd have him with Hanifin. But Tanev and Andy aren't 3rd pairing either.

The outlier is Kylington. It doesn't really matter what we think of him, it only matters what Sutter thinks of him. We've seen him progress better with one year of Daryl, does he believe that there's still more progress and that Kylington will attain it?

Or are we trading him out for Weegar? My opinion is that I have no idea.

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Are we? I've heard this one before. The scouting contingency that continually parlay whethe a draft is strong or weak are generally full of crap.

You can trend every draft based on strong/weak rumour and then redo the draft 5 years later and see that the guessing doesn't trend well.

Every draft has a strong potential, but that's really all that it is.

I'm really interested to see if Slafkovsky is Andrei or Evgeny Svechnikov, for example.

 

 

Well when you screw up all of them either by selling picks or downgrading or artificially picking lower, drafting for perceived positional need (Zary), 

 

Then it doesn't really matter which one was the deep draft, does it?

[phoenix66]

21 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm kind of amazed looking around the intranet at Flames D potential rosters of people having Weegar as a 3rd pairing with Zadorov.

"Tell me you know nothing about Weegar without telling me that you know nothing about Weegar".lol

He was 20-25mins/gm with FLA and he's very good defensively, particularly disrupting the O rush.

At worst he's an excellent 3D behind Tanev and Andersson. At worst.

For me, ideally, I'd have him with Hanifin. But Tanev and Andy aren't 3rd pairing either.

The outlier is Kylington. It doesn't really matter what we think of him, it only matters what Sutter thinks of him. We've seen him progress better with one year of Daryl, does he believe that there's still more progress and that Kylington will attain it?

Or are we trading him out for Weegar? My opinion is that I have no idea.

 

I'm actually kind of intrigued how those pairings work out..

I can see Weegar and Anderson top line .. 2 d capable of the rush but both high on defense..the edge on that going to Weegar 

2nd pair I'd reunite Hanifin with Tanev.. he does have offense ability and showed it a few times and Tanev just makes him that much better .  3rd pair is tricky. You have to replace the slightly higher stay at home traits of Gubrandson so not sure how kyllington meshes with him but I can see a steady rotation of 6s on that pair ...

Kyllington kind of gets the shaft in this but unless Hanifin is moved in a deal I cant see him staying on that 2nd pair 

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm kind of amazed looking around the intranet at Flames D potential rosters of people having Weegar as a 3rd pairing with Zadorov.

"Tell me you know nothing about Weegar without telling me that you know nothing about Weegar".lol

He was 20-25mins/gm with FLA and he's very good defensively, particularly disrupting the O rush.

At worst he's an excellent 3D behind Tanev and Andersson. At worst.

For me, ideally, I'd have him with Hanifin. But Tanev and Andy aren't 3rd pairing either.

The outlier is Kylington. It doesn't really matter what we think of him, it only matters what Sutter thinks of him. We've seen him progress better with one year of Daryl, does he believe that there's still more progress and that Kylington will attain it?

Or are we trading him out for Weegar? My opinion is that I have no idea.

 

 

Not unlike your comment about unpredictability of the draft, so is this acquisition even though everyone here seems to know he's 1D.

 

1s5, 2nd, 3rd line?   Depends as mich on the team as it does on him.

 

IMHO we are all just a tad too excited here hoping a twitter graphic is right about a guy who had 1 point in the playoffs.

 

On a contender he is probably on the 2nd line.

 

Maybe he is 1D for us.  But that is different than saying we have solved D, like people seem to think

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well when you screw up all of them either by selling picks or downgrading or artificially picking lower, drafting for perceived positional need (Zary), 

 

Then it doesn't really matter which one was the deep draft, does it?

It's still a crapshoot ...  Look at Tkachuk's year, after Matthews.. you have Laine , who started with a bang then nearly fell off a cliff..shouid find life again with Johnny.. Dubois is still ok but not special.. juolevi is a total bust.. Puljjaarvi still trying to figure out what he is .. 

These were all can't miss prospects .. 

[conundrumed]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well when you screw up all of them either by selling picks or downgrading or artificially picking lower, drafting for perceived positional need (Zary), 

 

Then it doesn't really matter which one was the deep draft, does it?

I'm talking generally. Not specific teams.

[jjgallow]

31 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

It's still a crapshoot ...  Look at Tkachuk's year, after Matthews.. you have Laine , who started with a bang then nearly fell off a cliff..shouid find life again with Johnny.. Dubois is still ok but not special.. juolevi is a total bust.. Puljjaarvi still trying to figure out what he is .. 

These were all can't miss prospects .. 

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/2016-nhl-draft-rankings-slawsons-top-100-prospects/

 

"Chychrun has been undeservingly dropped in many NHL Draft rankings. In reality, he is still the best defender available with the potential to become a franchise defenceman."

 

 

Huh.

 

Lack.  Of offense. 

 

I do think the draft age should be moved up.   But,was 2016 really a sh1tty draft?

 

Was 2016 really unpredictable?

 

Or were people just stupid?

(This is always my go-to)

 

[conundrumed]

24 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Not unlike your comment about unpredictability of the draft, so is this acquisition even though everyone here seems to know he's 1D.

 

1s5, 2nd, 3rd line?   Depends as mich on the team as it does on him.

 

IMHO we are all just a tad too excited here hoping a twitter graphic is right about a guy who had 1 point in the playoffs.

 

On a contender he is probably on the 2nd line.

 

Maybe he is 1D for us.  But that is different than saying we have solved D, like people seem to think

I said 3D at worst, from following FLA and watching them. I'm in EST and I've watched more Florida than Toronto. Not a twitter graphic.

You and your playoff pts...

Huberdeau had 10 in 6 games in an excellent, tight series vs TBay in the 1st rd in 2021 playoffs. Vasilevsky absolutely stoned them. If not for G, they won that series.

Bobrovsky and Dreidger were so leaky that they had to go with Spencer Knight. Vasilevsky was a monster.

Both Carolina and FLA both said after TBay beat them out that Vasilevsky had been the reason Tampa is even near them all year long.

[jjgallow]

16 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'm talking generally. Not specific teams.

 

Generally speaking,  teams that invest in the draft and development and scouting win more cups.

 

It's not unlike investing in stocks.  Non-investors will point to any individual stock, or bear market, and say "look at the risk".

 

People who actually understand risk are looking at the 60 year s&p trend.

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I said 3D at worst, from following FLA and watching them. I'm in EST and I've watched more Florida than Toronto. Not a twitter graphic.

You and your playoff pts...

Huberdeau had 10 in 6 games in an excellent, tight series vs TBay in the 1st rd in 2021 playoffs. Vasilevsky absolutely stoned them. If not for G, they won that series.

Bobrovsky and Dreidger were so leaky that they had to go with Spencer Knight. Vasilevsky was a monster.

Both Carolina and FLA both said after TBay beat them out that Vasilevsky had been the reason Tampa is even near them all year long.

 

I am sorry to hear about your proximity to Toronto, that must be very difficult.

[conundrumed]

55 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I am sorry to hear about your proximity to Toronto, that must be very difficult.

On the plus, I get Midget hockey NA championships and the IIHF 2014 U17 Championship.

So I know a lot about the draft that you speak of.lol

[jjgallow]

22 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

On the plus, I get Midget hockey NA championships and the IIHF 2014 U17 Championship.

So I know a lot about the draft that you speak of.lol

 

Well that would still be good for passing time, even though we all know the generational players come out of Western Canada, AJHL, WHL now.

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well that would still be good for passing time, even though we all know the generational players come out of Western Canada, AJHL, WHL now.

Okay Sutter.lol

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I'm kind of amazed looking around the intranet at Flames D potential rosters of people having Weegar as a 3rd pairing with Zadorov.

"Tell me you know nothing about Weegar without telling me that you know nothing about Weegar".lol

He was 20-25mins/gm with FLA and he's very good defensively, particularly disrupting the O rush.

At worst he's an excellent 3D behind Tanev and Andersson. At worst.

For me, ideally, I'd have him with Hanifin. But Tanev and Andy aren't 3rd pairing either.

The outlier is Kylington. It doesn't really matter what we think of him, it only matters what Sutter thinks of him. We've seen him progress better with one year of Daryl, does he believe that there's still more progress and that Kylington will attain it?

Or are we trading him out for Weegar? My opinion is that I have no idea.

 

 

Weeger definitely improved out top 6D.  Sutter can figure out how best to deploy them.  Meloche would be a good steady gut to have on the 3rd pair, but with Zadorov?  Not sure that's a steady pair.  Weeger should probably get the toughest assignment, but that implies Tanev or Ras pairing.  Hanifin was good a year ago with Tanev and good with Ras the rest of the time.  Kylington was really good with Tanev for half the year, the tailed off a bit.  Wear and tear, post-injury issues, or started to think too far ahead.

 

Then we have Valimaki and Mackey.  9 guys that could be in the lineup.  I'm thinking they are dealing Valimaki since his play hasn't changed.  I could be comfortable with 8D on the roster, but does that benefit anyone?  Are we really paying Zaddy $3.75M to just be a 3rd pairing guy?  I have no doubt that Kylington will again show up ripped and show he is a top 4D on this team.  Tough decisions for Sutter.

 

With that in mind, I think we have to move Valimaki.  His value is low based on use, but he has pedigree.  Wonder how much he is actually worth to a team missing a 5/6 D guy.  He will eventually take a big step, but we lost his development years to his injuries.  Can possibly sneak Mackey or Meloche to the AHL through waivers, but is that a good plan? 

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I said 3D at worst, from following FLA and watching them. I'm in EST and I've watched more Florida than Toronto. Not a twitter graphic.

You and your playoff pts...

Huberdeau had 10 in 6 games in an excellent, tight series vs TBay in the 1st rd in 2021 playoffs. Vasilevsky absolutely stoned them. If not for G, they won that series.

Bobrovsky and Dreidger were so leaky that they had to go with Spencer Knight. Vasilevsky was a monster.

Both Carolina and FLA both said after TBay beat them out that Vasilevsky had been the reason Tampa is even near them all year long.

 

This should help JJ's build through the G first argument. He's been on goalies since 2017

[sak22]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

This should help JJ's build through the G first argument. He's been on goalies since 2017

Tampa isn't really an example of building G first, they already had Stamkos, Hedman and Kucherov before drafting Vas and also made the final with Bishop, Vas didn't step in as a full time starter until the 2018 season and the Lightning had already established themselves as a contending team.  Its the most mentally fragile position in the sport, I don't believe the best way to develop is to throw them behind a Satoshi Nakamoto team.

[robrob74]

21 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Tampa isn't really an example of building G first, they already had Stamkos, Hedman and Kucherov before drafting Vas and also made the final with Bishop, Vas didn't step in as a full time starter until the 2018 season and the Lightning had already established themselves as a contending team.  Its the most mentally fragile position in the sport, I don't believe the best way to develop is to throw them behind a Satoshi Nakamoto team.

yup, just saying that having a goalie helps. I know I said JJ thinks build with G first, but he thinks get a #1 always is a way to go.

[420since1974]

Working with what we have:

 

Hanifin (LD) - Andersson (RD) (It works, don't change it).

Zadorov (RD/LD) - Weeger (RD/LD) (Weeger moves the puck forward very well, so maybe fewer "Adventures" for Zadorov).

 Klyington (LD/RD) - Tanev (RD) (Tanev is susceptible to injuries, so maybe fewer minutes keeps him healthier for the play-offs).

 

Mackey (LD) - Meloche (RD)

Valimaki (LD) - DeSimone (RD)

Gilbert (LD)

Poolman (LD)

 

All 12 are eligible for waivers.

I think that the Flames will keep 8D on the roster, Sutter's MO is that it is necessary for a long run.

I'd bet that at least one of the remaining four would not clear waivers.

So, I feel that one of Valimaki or MacKey will get traded before training camp.

[Thebrewcrew]

17 minutes ago, 420since1974 said:

Working with what we have:

 

Hanifin (LD) - Andersson (RD) (It works, don't change it).

Zadorov (RD/LD) - Weeger (RD/LD) (Weeger moves the puck forward very well, so maybe fewer "Adventures" for Zadorov).

 Klyington (LD/RD) - Tanev (RD) (Tanev is susceptible to injuries, so maybe fewer minutes keeps him healthier for the play-offs).

 

Mackey (LD) - Meloche (RD)

Valimaki (LD) - DeSimone (RD)

Gilbert (LD)

Poolman (LD)

 

All 12 are eligible for waivers.

I think that the Flames will keep 8D on the roster, Sutter's MO is that it is necessary for a long run.

I'd bet that at least one of the remaining four would not clear waivers.

So, I feel that one of Valimaki or MacKey will get traded before training camp.

Makes a ton of sense.

 

I think Weegar might be so good that the pairings have to change though. I know Darryl likes  to spread out the ice time, but I could see Weegar playing with a Tanev or Hanifin.

 

 

I think Valimaki will be the odd man out. I don't think the Flames need to rush a trade. He's overpaid for what he is at the moment and didn't have a great AHL season. I think you can sneak him through waivers during camp. The entire league is looking to trim down their roster rather than adding at that time. Sure, it's possible that he's claimed, but I'd be a bit surprised

[jjgallow]

28 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Makes a ton of sense.

 

I think Weegar might be so good that the pairings have to change though. I know Darryl likes  to spread out the ice time, but I could see Weegar playing with a Tanev or Hanifin.

 

 

I think Valimaki will be the odd man out. I don't think the Flames need to rush a trade. He's overpaid for what he is at the moment and didn't have a great AHL season. I think you can sneak him through waivers during camp. The entire league is looking to trim down their roster rather than adding at that time. Sure, it's possible that he's claimed, but I'd be a bit surprised

 

From a purely defensive perspective, imho the odd man out is Hanifin.  From an offensive perspective not so much lol.

 

I would personally entertain a Hanifin trade because IMHO he actually is a liability.   Now you're losing offense here so it would require some creativity but moving him along would probably enhance the club if done right, and definitely solve the waiver issue