Flames Defense

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Your discovery of the gif function is one of my favorite things about this place right now

 

 

 

Sorry guys you're right, the last 32 years are Clearly the coach's fault I apologize for trolling let's get coach fired it always works.  Plus we must be approaching some kind of awesome record on that.  Our complete lack of fist-line D just needs to try harder, we don't need defence, we need more creativity, more fourth lines.  Got it.

 

[stubblejumper1]

The Valimaki/Nesterov pairing is killing the Flames right now.  I don't understand why Ward is playing the 2 least experienced d men on the same pair.  Why not give them a chance to play with and learn from a veteran, instead of throwing them to the wolves and potentially sewering the season?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, stubblejumper1 said:

The Valimaki/Nesterov pairing is killing the Flames right now.  I don't understand why Ward is playing the 2 least experienced d men on the same pair.  Why not give them a chance to play with and learn from a veteran, instead of throwing them to the wolves and potentially sewering the season?

 

Nesterov is a vet.

135 KHL and 138 NHL games

The problem is styles.

Gio-Ras not working as wll as Hani-Tan.

Nessy is a gambler, and Vali can;t cover all of the ice.

He's going to be prone to rookie gaffes.

 

The 3rd pair is either going to be lesser guys or ou have a top 4 D-man playing 3rd pairing.

[stubblejumper1]

45 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Nesterov is a vet.

135 KHL and 138 NHL games

The problem is styles.

Gio-Ras not working as wll as Hani-Tan.

Nessy is a gambler, and Vali can;t cover all of the ice.

He's going to be prone to rookie gaffes.

 

The 3rd pair is either going to be lesser guys or ou have a top 4 D-man playing 3rd pairing.

 

A season and a half in the NHL isn't really a vet.  Nesterov is still learning how to play in the league.  Whether he is a risk taker, or hasn't learned when to jump up into the play, I don't think he is the guy who should be mentoring Valimaki. 

[JTech780]

 

[JTech780]

That pairing has been beyond good to start the season. Is this the season Hanifin takes that next step towards being a 1st pairing defenseman?

[travel_dude]

31 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

That pairing has been beyond good to start the season. Is this the season Hanifin takes that next step towards being a 1st pairing defenseman?

 

I only ask because I see struggles elsewhere.

Would Hanifin-Ras and Gio-Tanev solve some of the issues without negatively affecting the top 4 overall?

Hanifin-Ras was good in the playoffs.

 

Maybe it's even more drastic.

Hanifin-Ras

Valimaki-Tanev

Gio-Nesterov

 

The ice time is balanced a bit by special teams.

Gio and Tanev more on the PK.

Ras and Hanifin more on the PP.

 

I know it sounds wrong, but I think we have one good pairing and are losing out on the other pairs with mismatched players.

Valimaki needs a steady partner that doesn't make poor decisions.

Ras needs a better skating partner.

Gio needs less icetime.

I found it funny that Ward has trouble limiting Gio's ice.

He always wants to be out there.

That's a problem.

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I only ask because I see struggles elsewhere.

Would Hanifin-Ras and Gio-Tanev solve some of the issues without negatively affecting the top 4 overall?

Hanifin-Ras was good in the playoffs.

 

Maybe it's even more drastic.

Hanifin-Ras

Valimaki-Tanev

Gio-Nesterov

 

The ice time is balanced a bit by special teams.

Gio and Tanev more on the PK.

Ras and Hanifin more on the PP.

 

I know it sounds wrong, but I think we have one good pairing and are losing out on the other pairs with mismatched players.

Valimaki needs a steady partner that doesn't make poor decisions.

Ras needs a better skating partner.

Gio needs less icetime.

I found it funny that Ward has trouble limiting Gio's ice.

He always wants to be out there.

That's a problem.

 

I will admit that Hanifin has looked better. I hope just by me saying that it doesn’t change. 
 

I am starting to see the Lucic treatment with Gio. Gio gets some preferential treatment out of respect. The reality is, we’ve gotta start planning for a succession, and moving guys up the lineup. 
 

are we in a spot to win, or can we retain and send him to a contender next year? Just a question, I like Gio, but I don’t know if we will have a chance to win with him.

 

a lot of these suggestions you’ve made make sense. 

[sak22]

Gio is currently sitting at 2 minutes below his average ice time from last year and hasn't even played 23 minutes a game to date, if he was constantly in the box that would explain it but he has yet to take a penalty.  I wouldn't say he is playing awesome, but I don't see a complete deterioration to the point he is killing us each time he is out.  Having a better pedigree will gain more leash to work things out.  It isn't just a Gio specific thing, Iginla started slow every year, it isn't just a Calgary thing because look no further than Pittsburgh where Malkin only has one more point than Jankowski but is still getting 6 more minutes a game, and Jankowski isn't lighting it up either unless you only compare it to last year.  Just seems that some have an axe to grind with Gio.

[travel_dude]

20 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Gio is currently sitting at 2 minutes below his average ice time from last year and hasn't even played 23 minutes a game to date, if he was constantly in the box that would explain it but he has yet to take a penalty.  I wouldn't say he is playing awesome, but I don't see a complete deterioration to the point he is killing us each time he is out.  Having a better pedigree will gain more leash to work things out.  It isn't just a Gio specific thing, Iginla started slow every year, it isn't just a Calgary thing because look no further than Pittsburgh where Malkin only has one more point than Jankowski but is still getting 6 more minutes a game, and Jankowski isn't lighting it up either unless you only compare it to last year.  Just seems that some have an axe to grind with Gio.

 

I look at performance from one playoff to the next, not just regular season.

The coach made the comment about trying to reduce Gio's ice.

Less PP time has made a difference.

But he's still averaging the most time of any D.

 

We used to chalk up Brodie's performance to Gio, but it may not be that simple.

Gio may just need a certain kind of player to be tops.

Or he could be sliding.

He's 37.

 

 

 

[robrob74]

22 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I look at performance from one playoff to the next, not just regular season.

The coach made the comment about trying to reduce Gio's ice.

Less PP time has made a difference.

But he's still averaging the most time of any D.

 

We used to chalk up Brodie's performance to Gio, but it may not be that simple.

Gio may just need a certain kind of player to be tops.

Or he could be sliding.

He's 37.

 

 

 

 

I think it is a bit of everything. He’s 37, some guys can play awhile and I am sure he can go until he’s 40. Does that make him a top pair the whole time? Maybe he goes to 2nd pair and then 3rd to end the year. 
 

will he want to keep playing? And will he retire a Flames? I wonder if leadership can change if the main leader stays? Is leadership like the animal kingdom of the lions or apes? Can we transfer leadership without having to oust the old leader?

 

I just watched a BBC Earth show where the chimpanzee leader was attacked by all the guys who wanted to change leadership. He took a few days to recover and came back and made himself look the part and fooled them enough to retain leadership, and thus, getting to be the lady’s man for a little longer. 
 

not that that’s Gio, but, can players really feel like they can fully follow new leaders if the old are still there?

[travel_dude]

The burden of leadership can have an effect on players.

There are instances where this has happened.

It shouldn't be an issue for players.

 

[rickross]

Markstrom was our D last night against the Habs. He was so dialed, been awhile seeing such confidence in net. Our D has such a great young group upcoming, Tanev and Gio will make them excellent pros ...but I can’t say our vets our excelling on the ice right now. I like what I’ve seen from Tanev, he’s been a great steady presence and it appears he is actually helping Haninfin’s on ice play. Gio on the other hand needs his Brodie!...he seemed to always peak when they were paired. I’m still waiting on Kylington to set his mark if he’s given more opportunity this year. Our D is kind of middling right now, not bad but not great. Hopefully Huska can get this it all to click

[JTech780]

I find it interesting that Hanifin is off to the best start of his career and Quinn Hughes is really struggling defensively this season. 

 

I wasn't sure about the Tanev signing and it still may not work out in the long run, but right now it looks great.

[JTech780]

https://hbanalytics.substack.com/p/the-chris-tanev-revenge-tour-behind

 

Good article about the resurgence of Tanev.

[Ward54]

46 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

https://hbanalytics.substack.com/p/the-chris-tanev-revenge-tour-behind

 

Good article about the resurgence of Tanev.

Great article. Thanks for posting JTech. 

[Sarasti]

I'm not entirely sure which D pair has been getting the most minutes 5v5 this season but, to me at least, it seems as though the Hanifin - Tanev pair is our new number one.

 

And my goodness has Hughes struggled mightily so far this season. I knew he has had a rough start but I didn't think the analytics were that bad. 

[cross16]

13 hours ago, Sarasti said:

I'm not entirely sure which D pair has been getting the most minutes 5v5 this season but, to me at least, it seems as though the Hanifin - Tanev pair is our new number one.

 

And my goodness has Hughes struggled mightily so far this season. I knew he has had a rough start but I didn't think the analytics were that bad. 

 

Hanifin and Taven by almost 20 mins. They've been the number one pair since about the 2nd or 3rd game I think. 

 

The Canucks are a mess this year and are getting run over by basically everyone but Ottawa. I don't think there is a player on that team with good stats or analytics.

 

Canucks have been fascinating to me because they remind me so much when they stumbled through their rebuild. Last year was their 2015 Bob Hartley year and now reality is setting in.  

[robrob74]

45 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Hanifin and Taven by almost 20 mins. They've been the number one pair since about the 2nd or 3rd game I think. 

 

The Canucks are a mess this year and are getting run over by basically everyone but Ottawa. I don't think there is a player on that team with good stats or analytics.

 

Canucks have been fascinating to me because they remind me so much when they stumbled through their rebuild. Last year was their 2015 Bob Hartley year and now reality is setting in.  

the thing that’s different between previous years and last year was that Tanev had his full season. Every other year he has missed games due to injury. 
 

the reason I point this out is, it allows him to take the harder matchups. Even if his numbers are below 50% he’s still taking on other team’s best players. if you’re up against the other teams bests, then chances are you’re going to spend time in your own end. I see being in your own end as bad, but much like the argument of taking into consideration that the other team is going to push and try when we discuss the effort debate and how the team is playing when that happens, I think we gotta take that the other teams best players will likely also have good possession stats.
 

Another thing about Tanev is he allows other pairs to have other match ups. He also possibly allowed players to be paired properly too. 
 

so is it a Hartley year, or was Tanev that big of a difference on the backend by being healthy all year? That’s not to say the Canucks deserved to be in years before last... but Did Benning and Brad both gamble on Tanev, one let him go and lost a big proponent of his team, and the other signing him and finding out just how much more important he really is. 
 

I hated Tanev because he was a Canuck and because no matter what, he seemed to look good and steady. In terms of his motor, I see Andersson as a similar player. Andy seems to be a cross between Gio and Tanev. 

[cross16]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

the thing that’s different between previous years and last year was that Tanev had his full season. Every other year he has missed games due to injury. 
 

the reason I point this out is, it allows him to take the harder matchups. Even if his numbers are below 50% he’s still taking on other team’s best players. if you’re up against the other teams bests, then chances are you’re going to spend time in your own end. I see being in your own end as bad, but much like the argument of taking into consideration that the other team is going to push and try when we discuss the effort debate and how the team is playing when that happens, I think we gotta take that the other teams best players will likely also have good possession stats.
 

Another thing about Tanev is he allows other pairs to have other match ups. He also possibly allowed players to be paired properly too. 
 

so is it a Hartley year, or was Tanev that big of a difference on the backend by being healthy all year? That’s not to say the Canucks deserved to be in years before last... but Did Benning and Brad both gamble on Tanev, one let him go and lost a big proponent of his team, and the other signing him and finding out just how much more important he really is. 
 

I hated Tanev because he was a Canuck and because no matter what, he seemed to look good and steady. In terms of his motor, I see Andersson as a similar player. Andy seems to be a cross between Gio and Tanev. 

 

This isn't to take away from Tanev but it should be pointed out that Vancouver was not a good team last year in their own zone. They were one of the worst by almost all metrics and Markstrom carried them to the playoffs. 

 

I'm not sure the loss of Tanev is being felt on the ice much but it does sounds like the room is really missing him. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

This isn't to take away from Tanev but it should be pointed out that Vancouver was not a good team last year in their own zone. They were one of the worst by almost all metrics and Markstrom carried them to the playoffs. 

 

I'm not sure the loss of Tanev is being felt on the ice much but it does sounds like the room is really missing him. 

 

Whether or not Tanev had a big impact on Hughes can be debated, but he does not have the same poise this year.

We are seeing some growth from Hanifin, but part of that is that Hanifin got away from Hamonic this summer.

He was part of a good pairing then.

 

I think we could see benefits to Gio and Ras if we swapped Tanev with Ras.

Would it be mutually beneficial for both pairs?  No idea.

I'm liking the Valimaki-Nesterov pair again.

They seem to be building on some of their good play as a pair.

[Sarasti]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:17 AM, travel_dude said:

 

Whether or not Tanev had a big impact on Hughes can be debated, but he does not have the same poise this year.

We are seeing some growth from Hanifin, but part of that is that Hanifin got away from Hamonic this summer.

He was part of a good pairing then.

 

I think we could see benefits to Gio and Ras if we swapped Tanev with Ras.

Would it be mutually beneficial for both pairs?  No idea.

I'm liking the Valimaki-Nesterov pair again.

They seem to be building on some of their good play as a pair.

 

Agreed.

Valimaki, in particular, seems to have been playing with loads more confidence since the pair of rough games he had a short while ago.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Sarasti said:

 

Agreed.

Valimaki, in particular, seems to have been playing with loads more confidence since the pair of rough games he had a short while ago.

 

listening for a brief moment to the Fan yesterday, there was an interview with Conroy where he mentioned Valamaki when he had his struggles. He sat down with him and asked how he was doing and mentioned Valamaki was scared the team was mad about his play.

 

It was good to get a perspective of a young player, that they do have worries that their play was being over watched. It hindered how he played. Connie told him to be himself and most of all, have fun out there. It doesn’t look like he was having fun. I think since then he has looked better, 

 

I wonder if the coaches communicate well enough to get young players through that feeling. To me this is how Bennett, Jankowski, Kylington and other younger players look, like players who just can’t get out of their own heads due to worrying about how they play. 
 

things I think about, have these players had enough development? You look at Dube and Mangiapane. They stuck in the A until they were ready. I feel last year Dube could have stayed in the A for a bit longer but arrived in the Play-in Round. Mangiapane aged in the A until he broke down the doors to the NHL. Benny needed time in the A bit his circumstances didn’t allow him. I feel they should have played him as a C down there and developed him right. Jankowski, seemed ready, but could he have used another year there? I don’t think sitting a young Kylington did good for his career. 
 

I see a huge difference in these players’ hunger and wonder if that is because they had the right amount of time to develop and keep grow their hunger.

[dieselmarble]

Defense, all small or play small, Cannot clear the front of the net. None with a mean streak thats needed. Join the rush or start it, yes sometimes but thats expected anyway and there should be more of it, but none of them are really fast enough even though they are smaller guys. None are feared by any other teams. YOu could eat an Ice Cream in front of the flames net.

[cross16]

A really interesting article that looks at the utilization of the blueline in the league.  How are the used in the o zone and in transition.  For me, it also highlights a problem i've had with the Flames this year from a coaching and tactics perspective that they are not maximizing their personnel. The Flames blueline is full of players who are very good, amongst the best in the league, in terms of transition play and creating offence but the Flames are not utilizing those skill sets. This is IMO a big reason why their breakouts are so inconsistent and their overall offence is inconsistent, they rely too much on their forwards, get into too much of a north-south game and that makes them easier to shutdown. 

 

I get why their hired Sutter and IMO he is not the dinosaur he is made out to be but at the same time this article does highlight that getting creative with your D is becoming more and more essential in today's game. 

 

https://jfresh.substack.com/p/which-teams-are-relying-most-on-defencemen