Flames Defense

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Anything is possible, take what you can get lol.

 

There are good deals to be had, some so good that they would never make our "trade suggestion" thread....they would be laughed out.

 

A great GM, finds those trades.  i will admit....our Hamilton trade (while not that good), was close to that good.

 

 

Its kind of like the Ryan McDonagh trade. Giving up a lot too early.

 

i thought I would bring it back to a D thread ?

[conundrumed]

Unfortunately I think every trade ends up being, "in hindsight".

So those trades are kind of there, but they're also "we're not sure" trades.

Both sides assume the risk, and it's easy to go back and say, wow did we burn you/get burned.

Forsberg is pretty much the high end of misreading value/risk.

 

[conundrumed]

5 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

Its kind of like the Ryan McDonagh trade. Giving up a lot too early.

 

i thought I would bring it back to a D thread ?

Would you rather: Engelland and Stone @ $5.5 per.

One $4.5 guy...honest question.

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Would you rather: Engelland and Stone @ $5.5 per.

One $4.5 guy...honest question.

 

I was referring to the bonehead trades that were made, like the Hamilton deal. 

 

To answer: 

It depends on how much of an impact the one guy gives you. If he's a top pair, yes. Is Stone a good enough 2nd pair? We already have Giordano and Hamilton so would I want a McDonagh as a 2nd pair? He would be something we'd lack but cost too much. He also has a lot of playoff experience.

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I was referring to the bonehead trades that were made, like the Hamilton deal. 

 

To answer: 

It depends on how much of an impact the one guy gives you. If he's a top pair, yes. Is Stone a good enough 2nd pair? We already have Giordano and Hamilton so would I want a McDonagh as a 2nd pair? He would be something we'd lack but cost too much. He also has a lot of playoff experience.

I think our situation for the 2nd pairing is having the right playing partner for Brodie. A player that can hold his own and provide enough confidence for Brodie to play his best. I would say Stone answered the bell there in the short time together. As for Engelland, he is a bit unique for us because he also acts as our "stand up guy" for when the rough stuff happens. I wouldn't mind getting him for another season.

[travel_dude]

Asked this elsewhere:

 

Does Shattenkirk make us that much better for the money?  Would we be one of the deeper teams if we signed him?

[Flyerfan52]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Asked this elsewhere:

 

Does Shattenkirk make us that much better for the money?  Would we be one of the deeper teams if we signed him?

We'd be deeper but I don't even imagine he'll sign with Calgary.

 

Trying to be realistic I'm still for going after 1 of Carolina's excess you D (any 1) or Murray off the BJs roster.

In the west odds are Nashville protects 4 D but Anaheim & Minny have a harder choice. If either decides on protecting their 7 forwards the 4th best D they trade or expose is my target.

The Jets it's iffy but I feel they'll go the 7-3-1 route meaning Myers is available. The injury & personal problem last year doesn't worry me.

[JTech780]

4 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

We'd be deeper but I don't even imagine he'll sign with Calgary.

 

Trying to be realistic I'm still for going after 1 of Carolina's excess you D (any 1) or Murray off the BJs roster.

In the west odds are Nashville protects 4 D but Anaheim & Minny have a harder choice. If either decides on protecting their 7 forwards the 4th best D they trade or expose is my target.

The Jets it's iffy but I feel they'll go the 7-3-1 route meaning Myers is available. The injury & personal problem last year doesn't worry me.

 

I can't see Calgary targeting a defenseman prior to the expansion draft, it just put us into a tough position of having to protect 4 defensemen, because we aren't exposing Giordano.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, JTech780 said:

 

I can't see Calgary targeting a defenseman prior to the expansion draft, it just put us into a tough position of having to protect 4 defensemen, because we aren't exposing Giordano.

If you went for Hanifin, then there is no issue.

 

[JTech780]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

If you went for Hanifin, then there is no issue.

 

 

Are you willing to give up Bennett, our 1st plus another piece like a Jankowski, because that is probably what the cost is for Hanifin.

[travel_dude]

28 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Are you willing to give up Bennett, our 1st plus another piece like a Jankowski, because that is probably what the cost is for Hanifin.

 

Of course not.  But seeing as they have an abundance of D prospects, the cost may not be quite that high.  We are all just speculating on the cost in trade of player X, but it depends on what the team sees the player as being.   

[JTech780]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

Of course not.  But seeing as they have an abundance of D prospects, the cost may not be quite that high.  We are all just speculating on the cost in trade of player X, but it depends on what the team sees the player as being.   

 

Carolina doesn't have an expansion draft issue with their defense, they can protect all their young defense. Really the only reason to move a defenseman for them is to get help elsewhere. I just can't see them not going for max value just because they have a surplus. Hanifin is going to be the best of the bunch for Carloina, I can't see them moving him unless it is for a big return.

 

I think they will be taking a long hard look at Duchene. 

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Carolina doesn't have an expansion draft issue with their defense, they can protect all their young defense. Really the only reason to move a defenseman for them is to get help elsewhere. I just can't see them not going for max value just because they have a surplus. Hanifin is going to be the best of the bunch for Carloina, I can't see them moving him unless it is for a big return.

 

I think they will be taking a long hard look at Duchene. 

 

The teams that will get good return for assets are the ones that can't protect all their D; Anaheim, Nashville, etc.  I can't see a bunch of teams lining up for him, unless they are trading a guy that they have to otherwise protect.   

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

Carolina doesn't have an expansion draft issue with their defense, they can protect all their young defense. Really the only reason to move a defenseman for them is to get help elsewhere. I just can't see them not going for max value just because they have a surplus. Hanifin is going to be the best of the bunch for Carloina, I can't see them moving him unless it is for a big return.

 

I think they will be taking a long hard look at Duchene. 

 

I want to offer Bennett for Hanifin but if the Avs offer Duchene, then that's the better offer, unless Carolina wants Bennett for age.

[Cowtownguy]

I am not convinced that a quick-fix gem is out there in terms of goaltending. Maybe Treliving needs to beef up the defence for now. Sign Stone and seek out another gritty defenceman. I believe that of your top four defencemen, two need to be big, fast, nasty fellers, one offensively talented with the ability to get nasty, and one offensive-minded guy. The bottom two of six need to be tough guys too. Right now, we have one tough dude (Stone), an aging player capable of being nasty (Gio), one with the body to be tough and never is (Hammy), and a player who is offensive (Brodie). I have no issues with the players themselves. I do take issue with the complexion of the defence overall. I would rather keep Hamilton over Brodie, so I say move Brodie for someone like Stone. When we had Russell, Wideman, and Brodie, big surprise, we were always stuck in our zone. The additions of Bartman and Stone made a big difference. 

 

We also have to address the forward situation. I think that conundrumed has made a good point that we struggle to score at times. It is quite unusual that a guy like Bennett is kind of floating around on the team. He should have his own line and be a centrepiece on the team. How is it that our highest ever draft pick, a guy who was actually rated higher than what we got him at in a relatively deep draft, is marginal to the team? Of all our players in this 4 game playoff round, I believe he performed relatively well. While I am at it, I am not convinced that JG and Monahan are the best combination either. Everyone seems to think the line falters somewhat because we have a hole on that line (which is true). I wonder if the two just really don't click. They don't bring out the very best in each other. My sense is that you should be able to have two talented players work so well together, that almost any addition to them should work. Kurri and Gretzky even made it work with Cementhead on that line. Bossy and Trottier worked with almost anyone. How is it that they cannot buy a goal at times?

[travel_dude]

40 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

While I am at it, I am not convinced that JG and Monahan are the best combination either. Everyone seems to think the line falters somewhat because we have a hole on that line (which is true). I wonder if the two just really don't click. They don't bring out the very best in each other.

 

Monahan struggles when JH gets boxed out and can't make sublime passes.  JH struggles when the line can't finish.  Overall, this season it took a long time for the pair to get going.  Have to think back to their early RW, but it was a blur of Brouwer, Chaisson and a couple others.  

 

It's hard to look at the stats for the last three years and say they don't click.  I never expected Monahan to be a 80 point guy.  Yet, he manages to score 31, 27, and 27 goals once JH arrived.  JH missed 10 games and still lead the team.  First season he started tearing it up when he was played with Hudler and Monahan.  Sounds like that is a pairing that works to me.

 

I tend to agree with your criticism (as such) of the defense, but don't think there is an easy fix.  If we could swing it, I would bring in Stone and Franson.  Promote AOM.  Let Stone and Franson's play determine where they best fit.  AOM provides a shutdown guy that is big.  Or just Stone or Franson and bring in Andersson and AOM/Kulak/Healey.  If they do sign Stone, it had better be for less than $4m current salary.  Same for Franson; has to be close to $3.3m.

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

.........While I am at it, I am not convinced that JG and Monahan are the best combination either. Everyone seems to think the line falters somewhat because we have a hole on that line (which is true). I wonder if the two just really don't click. They don't bring out the very best in each other. My sense is that you should be able to have two talented players work so well together, that almost any addition to them should work. Kurri and Gretzky even made it work with Cementhead on that line. Bossy and Trottier worked with almost anyone. How is it that they cannot buy a goal at times?

I was thinking a bit along the same lines. JH did well in the preseason with elite linemates and is doing okay at the worlds now too, yet he struggled for a good portion of the year  this season. 

It might just be the makeup of what we can give him for linemates.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I was thinking a bit along the same lines. JH did well in the preseason with elite linemates and is doing okay at the worlds now too, yet he struggled for a good portion of the year  this season. 

It might just be the makeup of what we can give him for linemates.

Maybe we just need to trade for Larkin.

The best he ever played was with Hudler, when Hudler was able to hit the net.  Brouwer was never a good fit on 5v5.  Ferland looked good on the rush or picking up loose pucks, but his LHS seemed to impact him.  Maybe he felt he should look for the pass first.  

 

The options for using JH are Monahan or Backlund's lines.  He didn't look that comfortable with Bennett.  Maybe having JH and Tkachuk switch spots would work, but I was kind of hoping to see a line of Tkachuk-Bennett-Lazar. 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

that almost any addition to them should work. Kurri and Gretzky even made it work with Cementhead on that line. Bossy and Trottier worked with almost anyone. How is it that they cannot buy a goal at times?

 

I get what you are trying to say, but you are throwing out some very far out there comparisons. You just listed 4 Hall of fame players and 4 of the greatest to ever play as an argument that maybe Jh and Monahan arn't as good as they should? Pretty unrealistic comparison. 

 

Can't find the numbers right now, but i'm fairly certain i saw a graphic this year on Sporsnet that showed that since they've been put together JH and Mony are one of the leagues most productive pairs in terms of points. IN fact I think there are several metrics that point to JH and Mony being an elite pairing. As always i'm fine discussing splitting up anyone because just because they are very good doesn't mean there isn't a better option (just look at Brodie - Gio - Hamilton) but need to remember they are a very good pairing together. 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

 

We also have to address the forward situation. I think that conundrumed has made a good point that we struggle to score at times. It is quite unusual that a guy like Bennett is kind of floating around on the team. He should have his own line and be a centrepiece on the team. How is it that our highest ever draft pick, a guy who was actually rated higher than what we got him at in a relatively deep draft, is marginal to the team? Of all our players in this 4 game playoff round, I believe he performed relatively well. While I am at it, I am not convinced that JG and Monahan are the best combination either. Everyone seems to think the line falters somewhat because we have a hole on that line (which is true). I wonder if the two just really don't click. They don't bring out the very best in each other. My sense is that you should be able to have two talented players work so well together, that almost any addition to them should work. Kurri and Gretzky even made it work with Cementhead on that line. Bossy and Trottier worked with almost anyone. How is it that they cannot buy a goal at times?

 

Watching Gaudreau do well in situations where he has speedy linemates, Gaudreau excels.  A.k.a Larkin, Kane, Hall, even Hudler... I'm convinced we only need to add a speedy RW too the top line and Gaudreau will return to form.

 

Monahan alone is too slow but he's one good finisher when he eventually catches up to the play.  Ferland and Chiasson also aren't speed demons.

 

In regards to Bennett, they played Bennett centering Gaudreau for a 5 game stretch in December and there was no chemistry.  Then, they tried Bennett-Monahan-Gaudreau with Johnny moved to RW and again, nothing.

 

They tried Bennett on the second line with Backlund-Frolik and also, nothing.

 

I don't think it's for a lack of trying.  Bennett simply doesn't have the elite vision required to play with big boys.  Comparably, Draisaitl has so much more patience.  He knows to buy time, delay, sprinkle some hesitation,  etc to open up passing lanes.  Bennett is too much of a bull in a China shop.  

 

Not that Monahan has elite vision but at least Monahan is a perimeter shooting threat whereas Bennett has to score all his goals within 6 feet of the net. Yet, lacks size to get there consistently.  He needs to get that Bo Horvat build and sacrifice some speed.

 

But then speed was one of his assets in Juniors.

 

Which, going back to his draft, the knock on him was that he played a rough game yet failed the combine miserably.  Think Gilbert Brule, 5'-11" power forward.

 

In my opinion, trade him while someone still thinks he can be something in this league... If we wait too long, then we're looking at Nail Yakupov type returns.

[Flyerfan52]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Watching Gaudreau do well in situations where he has speedy linemates, Gaudreau excels.  A.k.a Larkin, Kane, Hall, even Hudler... I'm convinced we only need to add a speedy RW too the top line and Gaudreau will return to form.

 

 

 

 

He's also playing on bigger ice & under the more stringent IIHF rules.

More ice, more room to maneuver.

IIHF rules less hits, hacks, etc. again causing more room to maneuver without fear.

 

Maybe instead of getting him other linemates until there is a fit we could lobby the NHL to go to international rules & ice.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Monahan struggles when JH gets boxed out and can't make sublime passes.  JH struggles when the line can't finish.  Overall, this season it took a long time for the pair to get going.  Have to think back to their early RW, but it was a blur of Brouwer, Chaisson and a couple others.  

 

It's hard to look at the stats for the last three years and say they don't click.  I never expected Monahan to be a 80 point guy.  Yet, he manages to score 31, 27, and 27 goals once JH arrived.  JH missed 10 games and still lead the team.  First season he started tearing it up when he was played with Hudler and Monahan.  Sounds like that is a pairing that works to me.

 

I tend to agree with your criticism (as such) of the defense, but don't think there is an easy fix.  If we could swing it, I would bring in Stone and Franson.  Promote AOM.  Let Stone and Franson's play determine where they best fit.  AOM provides a shutdown guy that is big.  Or just Stone or Franson and bring in Andersson and AOM/Kulak/Healey.  If they do sign Stone, it had better be for less than $4m current salary.  Same for Franson; has to be close to $3.3m.

 

 

Who is AOM?

[DirtyDeeds]

5 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

He's also playing on bigger ice & under the more stringent IIHF rules.

More ice, more room to maneuver.

IIHF rules less hits, hacks, etc. again causing more room to maneuver without fear.

 

Maybe instead of getting him other linemates until there is a fit we could lobby the NHL to go to international rules & ice.

 

Don't hold your breath on the underlined part. It would cost them money. As well Krugar showed that he can setup his teams play so that everything stays to the outside.(boring) Good coaches have a way of taking the excitement out of the game like that in the name of limiting scoring chances.

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I am not convinced that a quick-fix gem is out there in terms of goaltending. Maybe Treliving needs to beef up the defence for now. Sign Stone and seek out another gritty defenceman. I believe that of your top four defencemen, two need to be big, fast, nasty fellers, one offensively talented with the ability to get nasty, and one offensive-minded guy. The bottom two of six need to be tough guys too. Right now, we have one tough dude (Stone), an aging player capable of being nasty (Gio), one with the body to be tough and never is (Hammy), and a player who is offensive (Brodie). I have no issues with the players themselves. I do take issue with the complexion of the defence overall. I would rather keep Hamilton over Brodie, so I say move Brodie for someone like Stone. When we had Russell, Wideman, and Brodie, big surprise, we were always stuck in our zone. The additions of Bartman and Stone made a big difference. 

 

We also have to address the forward situation. I think that conundrumed has made a good point that we struggle to score at times. It is quite unusual that a guy like Bennett is kind of floating around on the team. He should have his own line and be a centrepiece on the team. How is it that our highest ever draft pick, a guy who was actually rated higher than what we got him at in a relatively deep draft, is marginal to the team? Of all our players in this 4 game playoff round, I believe he performed relatively well. While I am at it, I am not convinced that JG and Monahan are the best combination either. Everyone seems to think the line falters somewhat because we have a hole on that line (which is true). I wonder if the two just really don't click. They don't bring out the very best in each other. My sense is that you should be able to have two talented players work so well together, that almost any addition to them should work. Kurri and Gretzky even made it work with Cementhead on that line. Bossy and Trottier worked with almost anyone. How is it that they cannot buy a goal at times?

You raise a few good points about our current defensemen and their make up. I would say neither Brodie or Hamilton are anything special defensively and Giordano is not what he used to be. If I were to trade one of the 3 for say a RW with top line potential I think it is Brodie. We may be able to get a better LSD and have a good LSD pipeline building.

Perhaps next season GG should experiment to find who best plays together because their are some intriquing combinations to consider especially should a good RW talent be obtained.

Tkachuk, Monahan, Versteeg or Gaudreau, Bennett, Lazar to name a few.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

Maybe we just need to trade for Larkin.

The best he ever played was with Hudler, when Hudler was able to hit the net.  Brouwer was never a good fit on 5v5.  Ferland looked good on the rush or picking up loose pucks, but his LHS seemed to impact him.  Maybe he felt he should look for the pass first.  

 

The options for using JH are Monahan or Backlund's lines.  He didn't look that comfortable with Bennett.  Maybe having JH and Tkachuk switch spots would work, but I was kind of hoping to see a line of Tkachuk-Bennett-Lazar. 

Larkin would be good for us.