Flames Defense

[cross16]

3 hours ago, kehatch said:

I am not sure what your arguing. Initially you were saying we had to separate Gaudreau and Brodie to balance the lines. Now your saying we need to trade Giordano because he can't play without Brodie. 

 

The latter contradicts the former doesn't it? 

 

Bottom line for me is Brodie and Giordano are better together then they are apart. So let's keep them together . 

 

Im not saying that. For me flames need a better over d core and a better performace out of said d core and I don't believe they will get it by stacking one pairing and they should be still trying other pairings. 

 

If we have to keep Gio and Brodie together because Gio doesn't work elsewhere then his contract is going to become poor value sonner rather then later. I don't like that this organization has given up on balancing out the D core so quickly multiple times now. 

 

[kehatch]

I hear what your saying. I just don't think the pieces are there. No matter how you slice it your going to end up with a marginal player in the top 4. I would rather be able to out forward one legitimate shutdown pair at 25+ minutes per night then two poor top pairings. 

 

I am fine with any combination of Hamilton , Brodie, or Giordano. Giordano-Brodie, Giordano-Hamilton, Brodie-Hamilton, etc. But having both Wideman and Engellend in your top 4 is a guarantee to have a poor D core. 

 

Personally I think Giordano-Brodie makes the most sense because they compliment each other and it's a proven pairing. Jokipakka-Hamilton has also been pretty good. So I don't agree you can't just go with that. 

 

Also, I think Giordano has been fine. The pairing hasn't been with Wideman on it, but Giordano has been okay. It's Brodie that had struggled. Putting him on the left side next to Engelland doesn't work. Glad they ended thst experiment . Hopefully it doesn't come back. 

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, kehatch said:

I hear what your saying. I just don't think the pieces are there. No matter how you slice it your going to end up with a marginal player in the top 4. I would rather be able to out forward one legitimate shutdown pair at 25+ minutes per night then two poor top pairings. 

 

I am fine with any combination of Hamilton , Brodie, or Giordano. Giordano-Brodie, Giordano-Hamilton, Brodie-Hamilton, etc. But having both Wideman and Engellend in your top 4 is a guarantee to have a poor D core. 

 

Personally I think Giordano-Brodie makes the most sense because they compliment each other and it's a proven pairing. Jokipakka-Hamilton has also been pretty good. So I don't agree you can't just go with that. 

 

Also, I think Giordano has been fine. The pairing hasn't been with Wideman on it, but Giordano has been okay. It's Brodie that had struggled. Putting him on the left side next to Engelland doesn't work. Glad they ended thst experiment . Hopefully it doesn't come back. 

I think with last night GG is coming to some realizations with his players. Wideman is not good enough to be top 4 no matter who he is teamed with. I would say they need to cut Grossmann loose and run with Kulak rotating Wideman and Engelland in on the RS 3rd pairing. Jokipakka with Hamilton gets him the ice time and experience he needs this season.

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I think with last night GG is coming to some realizations with his players. Wideman is not good enough to be top 4 no matter who he is teamed with. I would say they need to cut Grossmann loose and run with Kulak rotating Wideman and Engelland in on the RS 3rd pairing. Jokipakka with Hamilton gets him the ice time and experience he needs this season.

 

What?  We are aligned in our thinking?  

 

Seriously, it's one game but we saw the beginnings of a good defensive structure.  Grossmann is fine on the roster as a depth player, but should not be brought in over Kulak.  Should only be injury depth when we are on the road.

[MAC331]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What?  We are aligned in our thinking?  

 

Seriously, it's one game but we saw the beginnings of a good defensive structure.  Grossmann is fine on the roster as a depth player, but should not be brought in over Kulak.  Should only be injury depth when we are on the road.

If they keep Grossmann maybe he teams with Wideman and we get Kulak and Engelland as the other pairing.

I don't blame GG for trying a few different pairings if only due to he has to find out certain things about his players firsthand.

See we don't always disagree. LOL

[tmac70]

Strange how, the guys who struggled last season seem to be flourishing this year. Hamilton took for ever to get the systems but seems fine under GG. England same thing. Gio and Brodie were good under Hartley but have been less than average apart. Last night the d looked better than normal which indicates we may have our d pairings finally nailed. I can see Grossman playing in LA and Ana, bigger teams more physical guy.

 

For all observations we realize that Brodie and Gio are only good together, as for Wides his time with this club is expired.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

If they keep Grossmann maybe he teams with Wideman and we get Kulak and Engelland as the other pairing.

I don't blame GG for trying a few different pairings if only due to he has to find out certain things about his players firsthand.

See we don't always disagree. LOL

 

Grossmann is a risk, so I'm not in favour of him and Wideman together.  I would just keep him around for minor bumps and bruises to the other 7.

[MAC331]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Grossmann is a risk, so I'm not in favour of him and Wideman together.  I would just keep him around for minor bumps and bruises to the other 7.

Sorry I don't see the sense in that and if you aren't going to play players because you can't trust them then they shouldn't be here. It isn't anything I am going to concern myself with regarding our fringe players.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Sorry I don't see the sense in that and if you aren't going to play players because you can't trust them then they shouldn't be here. It isn't anything I am going to concern myself with regarding our fringe players.

It always good to have an extra player or two on a roadtrip.  Beats trying to call them up a replacement when playing in the east.

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Strange how, the guys who struggled last season seem to be flourishing this year. Hamilton took for ever to get the systems but seems fine under GG. England same thing. Gio and Brodie were good under Hartley but have been less than average apart. Last night the d looked better than normal which indicates we may have our d pairings finally nailed. I can see Grossman playing in LA and Ana, bigger teams more physical guy.

 

That's the contrast between Hartley's system and GG's system.  Or in other words, the lack of a system under Hartley.  Guys were allowed to roam free, use their natural instincts, forwards break out of the zone as early as they want, D rush up the ice as freely as they wish, etc.  Under Hartley, what we saw were the high skilled guys flourish.  From Gaudreau to Hudler to even guys like Russell and Wideman.

 

Now that GG has implemented a team structure he has eliminated free flow.

 

What this has done is it has almost put a shackle on guys like Gaudreau and Brodie.  Meanwhile, the low hockey IQ players like Hamilton are doing well because the game has been simplified for them.  I watch the Flames play now and i wish we had 3 more Brouwers, Froliks, and Backlunds.  These guys are not only playing 110%, they seem so natural in a team structure and team environment.  Move as one unit.  Gaudreau looks like an island to himself all the time.  He's just not attacking with anybody and trying to rely on pure skill.

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's the contrast between Hartley's system and GG's system.  Or in other words, the lack of a system under Hartley.  Guys were allowed to roam free, use their natural instincts, forwards break out of the zone as early as they want, D rush up the ice as freely as they wish, etc.  Under Hartley, what we saw were the high skilled guys flourish.  From Gaudreau to Hudler to even guys like Russell and Wideman.

 

Now that GG has implemented a team structure he has eliminated free flow.

 

What this has done is it has almost put a shackle on guys like Gaudreau and Brodie.  Meanwhile, the low hockey IQ players like Hamilton are doing well because the game has been simplified for them.  I watch the Flames play now and i wish we had 3 more Brouwers, Froliks, and Backlunds.  These guys are not only playing 110%, they seem so natural in a team structure and team environment.  Move as one unit.  Gaudreau looks like an island to himself all the time.  He's just not attacking with anybody and trying to rely on pure skill.

 

I believe that GG made a point of saying he wouldn't restrict the gifted players and confining them to a box.  Gaudreau is not struggling because of the system; he is struggling because he is trying to create offense with no support.  Everytime he shoots from the top of the circle it's because there is no options.  They are one-and-done and then back to the D-zone.  By the time he sees the puck again, it's at the end of his shift.

 

One player that amazes me is Donskoi.  That guy is super-fast.  If we had a player like that with JH, we would see a lot of scoring chances. 

[The_People1]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

I believe that GG made a point of saying he wouldn't restrict the gifted players and confining them to a box.  Gaudreau is not struggling because of the system; he is struggling because he is trying to create offense with no support.  Everytime he shoots from the top of the circle it's because there is no options.  They are one-and-done and then back to the D-zone.  By the time he sees the puck again, it's at the end of his shift.

 

One player that amazes me is Donskoi.  That guy is super-fast.  If we had a player like that with JH, we would see a lot of scoring chances. 

 

Sure, GG is not restricting Gaudreau per se.  Go.  But you're going alone.  The other 4 will be in the box.  So then what's the use?  And that's what we are seeing.  Gaudreau is going to have to manage his game inside GG's system.  We see too many 1-on-1 fancy stuff and not enough patience and picking spots. Pucks are bouncing on him a lot too for some reason.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Sure, GG is not restricting Gaudreau per se.  Go.  But you're going alone.  The other 4 will be in the box.  So then what's the use?  And that's what we are seeing.  Gaudreau is going to have to manage his game inside GG's system.  We see too many 1-on-1 fancy stuff and not enough patience and picking spots. Pucks are bouncing on him a lot too for some reason.

 

That's a coaching moment.  Game tapes.  Review with the line.  They are as much at fault by being easy to defend against.  Have some set plays where a player is going to be at a certain location.  That seems to be missing.

 

 

[JTech780]

30 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

That's the contrast between Hartley's system and GG's system.  Or in other words, the lack of a system under Hartley.  Guys were allowed to roam free, use their natural instincts, forwards break out of the zone as early as they want, D rush up the ice as freely as they wish, etc.  Under Hartley, what we saw were the high skilled guys flourish.  From Gaudreau to Hudler to even guys like Russell and Wideman.

 

Now that GG has implemented a team structure he has eliminated free flow.

 

What this has done is it has almost put a shackle on guys like Gaudreau and Brodie.  Meanwhile, the low hockey IQ players like Hamilton are doing well because the game has been simplified for them.  I watch the Flames play now and i wish we had 3 more Brouwers, Froliks, and Backlunds.  These guys are not only playing 110%, they seem so natural in a team structure and team environment.  Move as one unit.  Gaudreau looks like an island to himself all the time.  He's just not attacking with anybody and trying to rely on pure skill.

 

 

 

 

 

I would disagree with that, to me it looks like Gaudreau just hasn't adjusted to the tighter checking he is receiving this year and is still trying to walk around everyone all the time instead of distributing the puck quicker. He is holding onto to the puck way too long. It has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the fact that the Gaudreau hasn't adjusted to the fact that the league has caught onto him.

[cross16]

Peeps I don't think I agree with you on what you are saying with how restrictive the system is. D still have full reign to go and have gone and there is still flexabiliy to get the puck in. Problem I am seeing with Gaudreau is the book is out on him. This happened last year too when teams played the Flames, they back off in the neutral zone so the stretch pass in blocked. Now they don't have to do that because the Flames won't use the stretch pass as much, but they are able to just line up on the blueline 4 wide and just stand there becuase Gauereau isn't going to get around that. They are trying to, successfully I might add, to get Gaudreau to either dump the puck in or try and go around them which is a 50/50 game anyway and thats why Gaudreau has so many turnovers. I think Gaudreau's lack of succes has more to do with how teams have adjusted to play him and less with the "system".

[travel_dude]

17 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Peeps I don't think I agree with you on what you are saying with how restrictive the system is. D still have full reign to go and have gone and there is still flexabiliy to get the puck in. Problem I am seeing with Gaudreau is the book is out on him. This happened last year too when teams played the Flames, they back off in the neutral zone so the stretch pass in blocked. Now they don't have to do that because the Flames won't use the stretch pass as much, but they are able to just line up on the blueline 4 wide and just stand there becuase Gauereau isn't going to get around that. They are trying to, successfully I might add, to get Gaudreau to either dump the puck in or try and go around them which is a 50/50 game anyway and thats why Gaudreau has so many turnovers. I think Gaudreau's lack of succes has more to do with how teams have adjusted to play him and less with the "system".

 

There are games where Gaudreau is able to dance around the other teams.  As it is, he has 30 shots on net, second only to Dougie.  He is getting dumped regularly in the O-zone.  He is making risky plays at times, but the players are usually so bunched up, that a two foot pass would lead to a turnover.  

 

I would like to see a bit more than dump/chase and carrying the puck in while your other forwards are standing on the blueline.  When Brodie tries to carry it in, it's usually the same result.

[AlbertaBoy12]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

There are games where Gaudreau is able to dance around the other teams.  As it is, he has 30 shots on net, second only to Dougie.  He is getting dumped regularly in the O-zone.  He is making risky plays at times, but the players are usually so bunched up, that a two foot pass would lead to a turnover.  

 

I would like to see a bit more than dump/chase and carrying the puck in while your other forwards are standing on the blueline.  When Brodie tries to carry it in, it's usually the same result.

Gaudreau to me, looks like a player who is frustrated and cant find his game. Ive been watching him play, and while he is making moves like you say, I still think hes trying to force it way too much. Hes making passes that arent there, I think he will be fine he just needs some time to adjust. 

 

I dont think the problem is chiasson or mony, although mony could play better. I dont wanna pass judgement on JH, but no one on that line is going to the front of the net right now, or very rarely. They need to get some dirty goals, instead of looking for the perfect play.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Peeps I don't think I agree with you on what you are saying with how restrictive the system is. D still have full reign to go and have gone and there is still flexabiliy to get the puck in. Problem I am seeing with Gaudreau is the book is out on him. This happened last year too when teams played the Flames, they back off in the neutral zone so the stretch pass in blocked. Now they don't have to do that because the Flames won't use the stretch pass as much, but they are able to just line up on the blueline 4 wide and just stand there becuase Gauereau isn't going to get around that. They are trying to, successfully I might add, to get Gaudreau to either dump the puck in or try and go around them which is a 50/50 game anyway and thats why Gaudreau has so many turnovers. I think Gaudreau's lack of succes has more to do with how teams have adjusted to play him and less with the "system".

 

The system is not restrictive per se, it's just not complementary to Gaudreau's style of attack.

 

Under BH, Gaudreau would either, 

1. Take off out the zone early, thus when he gets the puck, he is facing less defenders.

2. Gaudreau is last man out the zone carrying the puck, thus many passing options infront of him and decoys present itself to help clear an opening.  Like in basketball, you give your best player the ball on one side of the court and then everybody gets over to the other side to allow him to enjoy 1-on-1 isolation where his skills will almost certainly allow him to beat the defender and go in for the score.  Not saying we used to clear to one side for Gaudreau but under GG, I find Gaudreau is often skating right into a cluster of Flames forwards waiting to enter the blue line and they bring along with them a cluster of defenders that makes it difficult for Gaudreau to enter the zone with speed and do his thing.  Overall, no game plan designed specifically Gaudreau... not to say there used to be one under BH but certainly Gaudreau was a great fit for BH's system.

 

GG preaches moving up as a coordinated unit.  Gaudreau does not appear to be playing inside that team concept.  Thus, an island to himself.  Not saying the system is restrictive but that he is doing his own thing and 4 others are doing something else.

[robrob74]

On 2016-11-03 at 0:22 PM, AlbertaBoy12 said:

I would agree there is issues but the improvements are coming. This team is getting better. No matter what you say about these D pairings the flames team D is not near as big of a tire fire as it was last year

 

The one thing I notice with the pp are the decisions made in forcing passes.  It was the same with Hartley so I think it's a personnel issue more than the playbook. 

 

Paases are consistently being made through the other team's guys and it is easy to stop. It is hard to judge what is making it so bad. 

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I believe that GG made a point of saying he wouldn't restrict the gifted players and confining them to a box.  Gaudreau is not struggling because of the system; he is struggling because he is trying to create offense with no support.  Everytime he shoots from the top of the circle it's because there is no options.  They are one-and-done and then back to the D-zone.  By the time he sees the puck again, it's at the end of his shift.

 

One player that amazes me is Donskoi.  That guy is super-fast.  If we had a player like that with JH, we would see a lot of scoring chances. 

 

I actually always thought that was how Gaudreau's line always played, only they had higher percentage scoring chances. It really looks like Monahan and Gaudreau have never played on the same line before. 

[Fins&FIre15]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I believe that GG made a point of saying he wouldn't restrict the gifted players and confining them to a box.  Gaudreau is not struggling because of the system; he is struggling because he is trying to create offense with no support.  Everytime he shoots from the top of the circle it's because there is no options.  They are one-and-done and then back to the D-zone.  By the time he sees the puck again, it's at the end of his shift.

 

One player that amazes me is Donskoi.  That guy is super-fast.  If we had a player like that with JH, we would see a lot of scoring chances. 

We absolutely love donkey in san jose, his hands, his compete and his speed are all ridiculous and its only a matter of time before the points really start coming with the way he plays...seriously never takes a night off. If were talking trades between the two clubs, Bennett would be the starting point, thats how much hes liked in the organization. For those that don't know (which is all of you lol) I grew up in a flames household, but fell in love with the sharks colors when I was 8, and as I got older they became my favorite team for the players and Ive been a die hard ever since. Its a 60-40 split (sometimes 70-30) between my love for the sharks and flames. All I can think about when watching donskoi is how amazing he would look with Gaudreau and Monahan, just the perfect complimentary player they need. Unlikely, but a man can dream. =/

[xstrike]

Getting back to the defence topic, is Montoya that bad or is Le Habs D that bad? 10-0 to Columbus. I think I can hear the cursing in French all the way down here. I'm thinking good defence and good goaltending effect each other in a feedback loop. How will Le Habs D look in front of Price next game I wonder?

[Flyerfan52]

10 hours ago, xstrike said:

Getting back to the defence topic, is Montoya that bad or is Le Habs D that bad? 10-0 to Columbus. I think I can hear the cursing in French all the way down here. I'm thinking good defence and good goaltending effect each other in a feedback loop. How will Le Habs D look in front of Price next game I wonder?

That was a strange aberation as Montoya is usually 1 of the best backups in the league. Even now he's 3-1-1.

*********************************************************************************************

Did any one see Max Domi drop Kessler with 1 punch?

I didn't see the game but caught that @ the SN site.

Kessler is an ex-Canuck but I still don't like that (.).

[MAC331]

13 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

The one thing I notice with the pp are the decisions made in forcing passes.  It was the same with Hartley so I think it's a personnel issue more than the playbook. 

 

Paases are consistently being made through the other team's guys and it is easy to stop. It is hard to judge what is making it so bad. 

I agree robrob, everyone is way over-thinking and trying to make the perfect setup pass and shot, just shoot the damn puck. We have some muscle for down low and in front of the net and they should utilize this more.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

That was a strange aberation as Montoya is usually 1 of the best backups in the league. Even now he's 3-1-1.

*********************************************************************************************

Did any one see Max Domi drop Kessler with 1 punch?

I didn't see the game but caught that @ the SN site.

Kessler is an ex-Canuck but I still don't like that (.)

 

I like what you did there! But I think he's a bit of a bigger ( .  )