Flames Defense

[MAC331]

The biggest change that I see in Wotherspoon in he is not playing as tentatively.

 

His decision making is quicker.

We always hope "developing" is taking the player in a positive direction of change. In Wotherspoon's case, he is showing this and with a lot of added confidence in himself. He knows better than anyone that he will only have so many opportunities to break in and right now may be it for the Flames.

[DirtyDeeds]

We always hope "developing" is taking the player in a positive direction of change. In Wotherspoon's case, he is showing this and with a lot of added confidence in himself. He knows better than anyone that he will only have so many opportunities to break in and right now may be it for the Flames.

Total fabrication of the fans to think this. He is only 22. Dmen unless elite talent top picks, always take much longer to develop. He has not been given much opportunity because he is young and has much to learn first.

 

Anyone who reads more into it is fabricating elbowing up.

 

Used to be 26-28 is when Dmen came into their own in NHL. For some reason Fans now think everyone getting close to 30 is over the hill and should be tossed for draft picks and prospects.

[andymo]

Total fabrication of the fans to think this. He is only 22. Dmen unless elite talent top picks, always take much longer to develop. He has not been given much opportunity because he is young and has much to learn first.

 

Anyone who reads more into it is fabricating elbowing up.

 

Used to be 26-28 is when Dmen came into their own in NHL. For some reason Fans now think everyone getting close to 30 is over the hill and should be tossed for draft picks and prospects.

30? Tell that to Toronto!

[MAC331]

Total fabrication of the fans to think this. He is only 22. Dmen unless elite talent top picks, always take much longer to develop. He has not been given much opportunity because he is young and has much to learn first.

 

Anyone who reads more into it is fabricating elbowing up.

 

Used to be 26-28 is when Dmen came into their own in NHL. For some reason Fans now think everyone getting close to 30 is over the hill and should be tossed for draft picks and prospects.

Nobody is saying that here. Wotherspoon has his talents and others have theirs, at some point anyone has to make it their urgency to make their own breaks. You can quote all the age steps you want but as a person you best decide when your time has come. This is the year it should be for Wotherspoon, I don't think another year in the minors develops him any further.

[travel_dude]

Total fabrication of the fans to think this. He is only 22. Dmen unless elite talent top picks, always take much longer to develop. He has not been given much opportunity because he is young and has much to learn first.

 

Anyone who reads more into it is fabricating elbowing up.

 

Used to be 26-28 is when Dmen came into their own in NHL. For some reason Fans now think everyone getting close to 30 is over the hill and should be tossed for draft picks and prospects.

 

Not to disagree (since I agree), but some are referring to an asset that is reaching the end of their ELC's.  In many cases a team cuts bait on player they don't consider to have a future.  Rightly or wrongly.  At 22, we have had 3 years of Spoon.  If there is not any progression, then a team may decide to move on (Cundari, Roy).  Comments by the GM about being Spoon's chance have people believing that it's his last chance.  

 

Spoon and Seth Jones were paired on the best D line in the WHL (possibly), but somehow Spoon is the only one that is a bust.  He is a better player that developed faster.  Spoon doesn't have the offense that Jones does, but he is pretty smart.  

[rickross]

I'm shocked J.Schultz is making $3.9mill/year. The fact that we signed Brodie to $4.7 mill is an absolute steal, especially with Schultz's -17 rating vs. Brodie's +14. Schultz agent should be commended for get that kind of $ considering his ineffectiveness

[travel_dude]

I'm shocked J.Schultz is making $3.9mill/year. The fact that we signed Brodie to $4.7 mill is an absolute steal, especially with Schultz's -17 rating vs. Brodie's +14. Schultz agent should be commended for get that kind of $ considering his ineffectiveness

 

To make matters worse, if he is traded to a team, they have to offer that or more as a qualifying offer or he goes to UFA.

That's a pretty risky trade, even for a contender seeking a rental.

[robrob1974]

To make matters worse, if he is traded to a team, they have to offer that or more as a qualifying offer or he goes to UFA.

That's a pretty risky trade, even for a contender seeking a rental.

Doesn't the team have arbitration rights to negotiate a new deal lower?

We did that with Backlund for one of his contracts didn't we?

[travel_dude]

Doesn't the team have arbitration rights to negotiate a new deal lower?

We did that with Backlund for one of his contracts didn't we?

 

I had it slightly overstated.

 

The team MUST (or he is a UFA) issue a QO of 100% for a player making over $1m; if he doesn't sign, he remains an RFA.

The team can take him to arbitration, but they cannot offer more than 15% less than his current salary.  If they reject the arbitration, he becomes n UFA.  I don't know that there is any reason why he would accept less prior to settlement.

[rickross]

I had it slightly overstated.

The team MUST (or he is a UFA) issue a QO of 100% for a player making over $1m; if he doesn't sign, he remains an RFA.

The team can take him to arbitration, but they cannot offer more than 15% less than his current salary. If they reject the arbitration, he becomes n UFA. I don't know that there is any reason why he would accept less prior to settlement.

Damn just looked it up, they'd have to pay him a minimum of $3.3 million which is already a huge overpayment. What an absolute dud Schultz turned out to be. All that fuss with the Ducks, Oilers getting Greztky and co. to sway him and he's a turns out to be an epic fail. The Oilers are a great source of comedy

[DirtyDeeds]

Damn just looked it up, they'd have to pay him a minimum of $3.3 million which is already a huge overpayment. What an absolute dud Schultz turned out to be. All that fuss with the Ducks, Oilers getting Greztky and co. to sway him and he's a turns out to be an epic fail. The Oilers are a great source of comedy

We were in on him too. He lit it up in the AHL during the lockout so there was no real indication he would be a dud.

 

Maybe if he had landed on a team with a decent ability to work with D prospects he might have turned out better. We can only speculate, but we do know the Oilers threw him into the fire, like all the #1's, and expected him to get his training under fire in the NHL.

[travel_dude]

Damn just looked it up, they'd have to pay him a minimum of $3.3 million which is already a huge overpayment. What an absolute dud Schultz turned out to be. All that fuss with the Ducks, Oilers getting Greztky and co. to sway him and he's a turns out to be an epic fail. The Oilers are a great source of comedy

 

They rushed him (tell me something I didn't know).  He lit the AHL on fire during the work stoppage, but the Oilers were basically all playing on the farm team.

 

He was ruined by being played as a 1/2 guy without ever earning it.  He learned the Eakins system of defense, which is basically swarm the puck carrier.  He never was coached to be anything other than a forward that didn't have to backcheck.  

[DirtyDeeds]

Is Timmy available? I am pretty sure he would be a cheap alternative for our D next season.....  

[travel_dude]

Is Timmy available? I am pretty sure he would be a cheap alternative for our D next season.....  

 

Available for waiving?  I am sure he is.

[phoenix66]

I'm not gonna lie, the more I see him play the more I'm liking Nakladal. I can see him as a permanent spot on the 3Rd pair and a threat to jump into the 2Nd.

He plays good postion, smart plays,great shot.

[travel_dude]

I'm not gonna lie, the more I see him play the more I'm liking Nakladal. I can see him as a permanent spot on the 3Rd pair and a threat to jump into the 2Nd.

He plays good postion, smart plays,great shot.

 

Spoon has been great too.  He's learned a lot playing with The Nak all season.

[darth_henning]

Spoon is definitely improved over his appearances last year. 

 

He, Kulak and Nak could easily fill out the 5-7 roles competently. 

 

 

The problem is the money we have tied up in Eng/Wide/Smid. But after next season we're in great shape on D once we find a top 4 guy. 

[kehatch]

I haven't hated Engelland with Hamilton. If Smid is out and the Flames somehow move Engelland this summer (not impossible) there should be room for the young guys.

[jjgallow]

The Problem, in terms of guys in their early 20's, is it basically looks like this:

 

Hamilton

Brodie  (we'll pretend he's in his early 20s)

..

...

 

..

 

..

 

..

 

..

 

Everyone we're currently talking about.

[kehatch]

I don't think it's that dire. We don't have any sure fire guys. But I like Hickey and a few others. D men often come out of no where.

[jjgallow]

I don't think it's that dire. We don't have any sure fire guys. But I like Hickey and a few others. D men often come out of no where.

 

They do....sometimes....after many years of development.

 

Which is why you build your team up from your goalie, to your defence, to forwards.

 

We're doing it backwards.  Will it work?  I think it could.  But there's issues to address.

[DirtyDeeds]

They do....sometimes....after many years of development.

 

Which is why you build your team up from your goalie, to your defence, to forwards.

 

We're doing it backwards.  Will it work?  I think it could.  But there's issues to address.

We did not do it backwards on purpose. We happened to draft BPA. That turned out to be Monahan and Bennett. 

 

JH was gift from hockey gods for not tanking.

 

We still need to address the goaltending. Who knows if Ramo will recover and it is a long term injury.

[cccsberg]

The Problem, in terms of guys in their early 20's, is it basically looks like this:

 

Hamilton

Brodie  (we'll pretend he's in his early 20s)

..

...

 

..

 

..

 

..

 

..

 

Everyone we're currently talking about.

Not sure what your point is? We could easily plug in Wotherspoon, Nakladal and Kulak without losing much if anything from the current line-up.  Next year some more guys might be ready too.

[MAC331]

They do....sometimes....after many years of development.

 

Which is why you build your team up from your goalie, to your defence, to forwards.

 

We're doing it backwards.  Will it work?  I think it could.  But there's issues to address.

Ideally yes but there will be times you are unable to follow a perfect path as you rebuild. Deals such as Hamilton you have to jump on as they present themselves. Hamonic could be one of those deal this offseason. I don't know if we are doing the rebuild backwards, I agree we had a number of areas to improve on. The last 3 drafts have been good for us and we could use this year's to further improve on our pipeline. The holes are becoming less however we need to have "as good or better" coming in as we eliminate the expensive vets we have used in order not to regress.

 

High priority will be Goaltending, as much as we need a #1 we will likely go through some trial and error here. Hopefully we strike gold this offseason.

Next priority IMO is RW, we have Frolik who could play either 1st or 2nd line and we don't have a ready inhouse answer for the second player. FA will likely cost us more than BT may be willing to pay so I would look for a trade to get one or two RW's this offseason.

Another priority should BT choose to make it a priority is a top 4 defenseman (Hamonic would seal the deal) if this doesn't happen BT may go with inhouse options.

 

This is how I see it.

[bosn111]

I have been quiet mostly on the boards for awhile as I had little to add to conversations. Fans seem to be more polarized than usual regarding a variety of players. While I am not able, due to location, to watch many games and even less able to keep track of prospects I do have some insight.

By all accounts, Nakladal and Wotherspoon have been not only reasonable fill ins, but have also seen increased time on ice and more responsibility while both have stepped up to meet the challenge. Looking at TOI stats, they have played equal to or above what Smid and Engelland were playing prior to the Wideman suspension. They may not be top pairing Dmen, Nakladal MIGHT be able to step in as a mid pair, but they are proving to be solid NHL calibre D. Kulak had a good camp, was a late cut and has had a good season in the AHL from what I hear. The fact that Wotherspoon and Nakladal got called up rather than him is somewhat telling ( unless Kulak is injured).

They Flames also have prospects still, in juniors (Kylington and Andersson) who are projected to have at least NHL potential with Kylington possibly being a second pair. Morrison is another prospect with projections of NHL use. While the Flames may not have elite prospects in the system, if you look at Hockeyfutures, the three above are really rated not much below guys like Darnell Nurse in Edmonton.

With Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton set as top 4 locks for multiple years, the Flames have time to develop the young guys to step into larger roles. If you have both Spoon and Nak stay with the big club next season and move out other contracts (Wideman if possible, Russell likely in the next fay or two , Smid possibly retirement due to injury, and possibly Engelland), then you free up space in the minors as well for Kylington and Andersson to fill the places in the AHL of Spoon and Nak. Obviously you can't / won't move all 4 of those contracts, but 2 is not far fetched, even 3 could be likely before next season. If the Flames can move out all 4, and get a solid young second pair Dman already with experience then the Flames could be well set for next season. Moving all 4 contracts frees up a ton of cap space.

The real question mark on D right now is which contracts can be moved? In a few years, the question is who can replace Giordano?

The D is pretty solid right now with Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, Nakladal, Wotherspoon and Engelland. Is their room for improvement? Certainly. Can that improvement happen through experience for Spoon and Nak? absolutely. Can an upgrade be had on Engelland? Absolutely for thenright price. Will adding 1 more top 4 Dman, better than either Russell, Engelland or Wideman as the only move make the Flames a cup contender? Absolutely not. More needs to be added as well and young guys increasing experience will only help.

In my opinion the Flames MUST move on from Russell, Smid and Wideman while keeping Nak and Spoon around, possibly move on from Engelland if the right offer comes along and SHOULD try to get another 2nd pair Dman at reasonable cost even if he is around 30 (move out in a few years when Kylington is ready). Add to that goaltending changes and a couple of changes on the forward lines, and the team could easily be a contender. Kulak could be a good 7th D in the scenario above.

I don't know if it can all be done before the start of next season, but it should be the goal. In order to help out the D, especially the young guys, you need to have a goalie that they can be confident in front of and forwards who know how to provide solid defensive support (Backlund, Stajan, Bouma).

I know I might take some flak and some may say that these moves are unlikely or even impossible, and I do not deny that it would be difficult at best, but it is what I think the goal should be for Treliving.