Flames Defense

[JTech780]

Hmm. I dunno. Do you honestly think he'd be able to dislodge one of Muzzin, Martinez, or Regher?

I can see some making the arguement for him dislodging Regher. I would disagree. But even then, I feel like they have way better talent who would dislodge Regehr before giving Brodie a chance.

Honestly I don't think they'd have room for him in the top 4. And I think they have better, younger talent knocking on the door.

I think it would be tough for Brodie on a contender's top 4. Almost good enough, but not quite. Almost young enough for the team to have patience. But not quite.

That being said, he is still young enough to get better. I do think it is possible for him to be a solid second-liner on a contending team if he continues to improve. I don't see him a a first-liner on a contender. Which is fine, it's just something the Flames need to address soon.

Martinez wouldn't be a top 4 player on this team. Regehr would be on the second pairing with Russell, his skating is lacking and getting worse. Muzzin and Brodie are fairly equal. I would give the edge to Muzzin defensively, but Brodie is improving significantly and quickly. Offensively the edge goes to Brodie.

[CheersMan]

Now might be a good time to cut bait with a few of these underperforming Dmen, as a few here have been preaching.  Trade them now while they have a pulse, get some more kids in here, or maybe some draft picks in return.  We could throw Grat’s in to sweeten the deal too.  We could bring up a few Dmen from ADDY to replace them.  We could shelter them all and give them all favourable zone starts.  LMAO! LMAO!

[frozenwanderer]

Now might be a good time to cut bait with a few of these underperforming Dmen, as a few here have been preaching.  Trade them now while they have a pulse, get some more kids in here, or maybe some draft picks in return.  We could throw Grat’s in to sweeten the deal too.  We could bring up a few Dmen from ADDY to replace them.  We could shelter them all and give them all favourable zone starts.  LMAO! LMAO!

 

Sarcasm or what?

[travel_dude]

Now might be a good time to cut bait with a few of these underperforming Dmen, as a few here have been preaching.  Trade them now while they have a pulse, get some more kids in here, or maybe some draft picks in return.  We could throw Grat’s in to sweeten the deal too.  We could bring up a few Dmen from ADDY to replace them.  We could shelter them all and give them all favourable zone starts.  LMAO! LMAO!

Some of us (maybe just me) suggest trading a guy like Wideman while there is high demand for D. His value is sky high for a team needing offense and PP presence. And I would trade him for a high-potential prospect D, not a 5/6 D prospect with 3/4 upside. Not that we get that return, just that is what I target. A team ripe with prospect D, but short on NHL ready D might pony up.

So, tell me how you would proceed? We have 2 pairings that are performing. The third pairing is scary bad. They may improve, or not. Do you pull the trigger if the return is great and sets you up for the future on D? Do you trade Smid for a prospect/pick and hope for another Brodie in the next draft? Or do you stay the course and believe that Smid will be able to improve Engelland's horrible numbers.

[jjgallow]

I think you are seriously under rating Brodie. He's a top 4 d on virtually any team in the league without question. Gio does not carry Brodie, they just play off each other extremely well and both of them raise the game of the other.

 

Well maybe I am.   kehatch cannot be free of bias due to a certain hockey pool lol.   But he's clearly not the only one who thinks so.

 

Brodie has 11 goals in his entire NHL career.  

 

Now consider that his strongest asset is offense.

 

His D is okay but definitely questionable, at the least, for top 4.

 

To me, D is pretty important.  Especially for D.

 

But if he's that good, then awesome. 

 

Even with that, D is still our biggest shortcoming in terms of the rebuild.  I support the talk on here of trading Wideman for a D prospect.

[travel_dude]

 

Well maybe I am.   kehatch cannot be free of bias due to a certain hockey pool lol.   But he's clearly not the only one who thinks so.

 

Brodie has 11 goals in his entire NHL career.  

 

Now consider that his strongest asset is offense.

 

His D is okay but definitely questionable, at the least, for top 4.

 

To me, D is pretty important.  Especially for D.

 

But if he's that good, then awesome. 

 

Even with that, D is still our biggest shortcoming in terms of the rebuild.  I support the talk on here of trading Wideman for a D prospect.

If you place any importance on "fancy stats", refer to the following number for this year so far (I'm excluding forwards to make it easier to see how the top pair fares):

CORSI LEADERS

Defenders:

•Mark Giordano - 50.22%

•T.J. Brodie - 46.88%

CORSI LACKERS

Defenders:

•Ladislav Smid - 36.45%

•Deryk Engelland - 37.50%

TOUGHEST MINUTES (CF%)

Defenders:

•T.J. Brodie - 55.48%

•Mark Giordano - 55.35%

ZONE HIGH GROUND (OZ Start%)

Defenders:

•Deryk Engelland - 54.35%

•Kris Russell - 48.42%

ZONE LOW GROUND (OZ Start%)

Defenders:

•Ladislav Smid - 34.33%

•T.J. Brodie - 34.82%

SCORING CHANCE LEADERS

Defenders:

•Mark Giordano - 51.85 SC%

•T.J. Brodie - 45.05 SC%

SCORING CHANCE LACKERS

Defenders:

•Deryk Engelland - 28.00 SC%

•Kris Russell - 33.33 SC%

PUCK DUMPERS

Defenders:

•Ladislav Smid - 0 carry%

•Deryk Engelland - 12.5 carry%

PUCK CARRIERS

Defenders:

•T.J. Brodie - 44.4 carry%

•Kris Russell - 35.0 carry%

[CheersMan]

I just took a look around the league and found a team that needs offense and PP presense………..It’s us!

---------------
If it isn’t broke then don’t fix it.  Sure Wideman’s career +/- would indicate that he is little loose on the defense side.  In his 100 games as a Flame he is -24, on a weak non-playoff bound.   There’s probably a few minus players on this team over that span.  If I jump on the ice just as the puck enters the net but I have nothing to do with the play whatsoever should I be awarded either a plus or minus?  Laws of average says it will average out over the long run however.  Wideman has some strengths like his shot, skating, offensive ability, veteran, etc.  Nobody is perfect, neither is Wideman.  Hartley needs to tap those strengths and help him improve his weaknesses.

--------------
Hey, everyone is for sale……..for the right price.  Any player on this team can be had for the right price.  If BT is not looking at every available option then he’s not doing his job.  If a team comes along and makes us an offer that makes sense then you do it but I’m not chasing deals for the sake of getting rid of Wideman, Smid or Engelland, at least not in the first 3wks of the season.

 

 

Some of us (maybe just me) suggest trading a guy like Wideman while there is high demand for D. His value is sky high for a team needing offense and PP presence. And I would trade him for a high-potential prospect D, not a 5/6 D prospect with 3/4 upside. Not that we get that return, just that is what I target. A team ripe with prospect D, but short on NHL ready D might pony up.

So, tell me how you would proceed? We have 2 pairings that are performing. The third pairing is scary bad. They may improve, or not. Do you pull the trigger if the return is great and sets you up for the future on D? Do you trade Smid for a prospect/pick and hope for another Brodie in the next draft? Or do you stay the course and believe that Smid will be able to improve Engelland's horrible numbers.

[travel_dude]

 

I just took a look around the league and found a team that needs offense and PP presense………..It’s us!

---------------

If it isn’t broke then don’t fix it.  Sure Wideman’s career +/- would indicate that he is little loose on the defense side.  In his 100 games as a Flame he is -24, on a weak non-playoff bound.   There’s probably a few minus players on this team over that span.  If I jump on the ice just as the puck enters the net but I have nothing to do with the play whatsoever should I be awarded either a plus or minus?  Laws of average says it will average out over the long run however.  Wideman has some strengths like his shot, skating, offensive ability, veteran, etc.  Nobody is perfect, neither is Wideman.  Hartley needs to tap those strengths and help him improve his weaknesses.

--------------

Hey, everyone is for sale……..for the right price.  Any player on this team can be had for the right price.  If BT is not looking at every available option then he’s not doing his job.  If a team comes along and makes us an offer that makes sense then you do it but I’m not chasing deals for the sake of getting rid of Wideman, Smid or Engelland, at least not in the first 3wks of the season.

Let me put it a different way.

- You have a car that is getting older, but seldom breaks down leaving you stranded.

- It gets OK MPG and is very fast.

- It's a 4x4 and there's lost of snow on the ground.

- Nobody is selling 4x4's.

- You can get a new car for the value you get on a trade-in.

- New car has a good warranty, better MPG and will last for 8-10 years.

Bad analogy I know, but the point is you sometimes make a deal while the market is there. You don't wait to TDL when everyone may have already solved their depth issues, or the market is flowded with tanker teams getting rid of everything possible. Cammi should have been shopped well before the TDL, but his injury eliminated that.

You claim it isn't broke. Look at the stats for the 3rd pairing, whether it's Diaz or Engelland. We can do a lot better than that. Smid is having another bad start to another bad year; I really though he could become a good shut-down D. Too much time being ruined by the Oilers. And we are one injury on D away from the basement. We can't replace Brodie or Gio with Wideman or Russell. We can't replace Russell or Wideman with Smit, Engelland or Diaz.

[cccsberg]

Let me put it a different way.

- You have a car that is getting older, but seldom breaks down leaving you stranded.

- It gets OK MPG and is very fast.

- It's a 4x4 and there's lost of snow on the ground.

- Nobody is selling 4x4's.

- You can get a new car for the value you get on a trade-in.

- New car has a good warranty, better MPG and will last for 8-10 years.

Bad analogy I know, but the point is you sometimes make a deal while the market is there. You don't wait to TDL when everyone may have already solved their depth issues, or the market is flowded with tanker teams getting rid of everything possible. Cammi should have been shopped well before the TDL, but his injury eliminated that.

You claim it isn't broke. Look at the stats for the 3rd pairing, whether it's Diaz or Engelland. We can do a lot better than that. Smid is having another bad start to another bad year; I really though he could become a good shut-down D. Too much time being ruined by the Oilers. And we are one injury on D away from the basement. We can't replace Brodie or Gio with Wideman or Russell. We can't replace Russell or Wideman with Smit, Engelland or Diaz.

Agree completely. Let take the long-term view. Anything to upgrade the team should be done.

[CheersMan]

I think we are agreeing that if a deal (any deal) comes our way at any given time which makes sense, then you do it.

------------
Any return for Wideman now will only weaken this team in the short term therefore putting us in the basement.  There is no guarantee that the return Wideman could fetch would be any better than what Wideman contributes now.

 

 Let me put it a different way.

- You have a car that is getting older, but seldom breaks down leaving you stranded.
- It gets OK MPG and is very fast.
- It's a 4x4 and there's lost of snow on the ground.
- Nobody is selling 4x4's.
- You can get a new car for the value you get on a trade-in.
- New car has a good warranty, better MPG and will last for 8-10 years.

Bad analogy I know, but the point is you sometimes make a deal while the market is there. You don't wait to TDL when everyone may have already solved their depth issues, or the market is flowded with tanker teams getting rid of everything possible. Cammi should have been shopped well before the TDL, but his injury eliminated that.

You claim it isn't broke. Look at the stats for the 3rd pairing, whether it's Diaz or Engelland. We can do a lot better than that. Smid is having another bad start to another bad year; I really though he could become a good shut-down D. Too much time being ruined by the Oilers. And we are one injury on D away from the basement. We can't replace Brodie or Gio with Wideman or Russell. We can't replace Russell or Wideman with Smit, Engelland or Diaz.

[kehatch]

Well maybe I am. kehatch cannot be free of bias due to a certain hockey pool lol. But he's clearly not the only one who thinks so.

Brodie has 11 goals in his entire NHL career.

Now consider that his strongest asset is offense.

His D is okay but definitely questionable, at the least, for top 4.

To me, D is pretty important. Especially for D.

But if he's that good, then awesome.

Even with that, D is still our biggest shortcoming in terms of the rebuild. I support the talk on here of trading Wideman for a D prospect.

That's why you and I don't agree on this one. His D isn't questionable. He shuts down the other teams top lines and status in the positive in terms of shots and chances.

As for Wideman, we aren't trading him right now. We don't have the depth to replace him and the Flames are in the playoff hunt.

That isn't to say I disagree with trading him for the right return. I personally would. But the Flames won't. Not now. Maybe near the deadline if we drop out of contention.

[travel_dude]

 

I think we are agreeing that if a deal (any deal) comes our way at any given time which makes sense, then you do it.

------------

Any return for Wideman now will only weaken this team in the short term therefore putting us in the basement.  There is no guarantee that the return Wideman could fetch would be any better than what Wideman contributes now.

I am probably dreaming, but if we could swing a Wideman-for-Larsson deal, it would provide us with the high-end D prospect we need. Yes, it weakens us a bit now, but he has put up 27 points in 129 games on a defensive team. He is still only 21 years old. I think he fits this organization, and could develop at a pace he needs.

[tincup1]

IMO, the most exciting aspect of this team so far has been the break out of Brodie.  It's been fun watching him emerge as an elite dman in this league.  I think he's top 2 on almost any team.  Will he be able to maintain his outstanding play is the only question as this point.  So glad they have him locked up at a good price going forward.   

 

After the top pairing it's a bit sketchy but so what, this is a re-build.  There are no easy answers as it's not easy to find NHL calibre defensemen.  I'm just happy the top two positions are filled with high end talent.

[jjgallow]

That's why you and I don't agree on this one. His D isn't questionable. He shuts down the other teams top lines and status in the positive in terms of shots and chances.

 

Okay, then perhaps something has changed from last year.  To be honest, I've barely seen any games this year as I've been pretty busy.  Hoping November is better.   If Brodie's defense is up, then yes, that's the discrepancy.

 

As for Wideman, we aren't trading him right now. We don't have the depth to replace him and the Flames are in the playoff hunt.

 

I'm not expecting Wideman to get traded either right now (and I'd also support it).

 

But...what's this about us in a playoff hunt?  We've won 5 games out of 11 played.   Is this a new kind of math?  Or just going by current standings?   We're already out of the playoffs with pre-injury play and we're over-achieving.  This is not going to be a pretty year.

 

I suppose that if we won out next couple games, we would technically be in the playoff hunt.  But that is both unlikly, and as well as a short-lived projection.  If anything, out current projection (which has us out of the playoffs) is flattering. 

 

That isn't to say I disagree with trading him for the right return. I personally would. But the Flames won't. Not now. Maybe near the deadline if we drop out of contention.

 

I agree, they won't.   They probably should, but they won't.  They will wait to the deadline.   It will depend on his health and performance at that time, whether he still has value.

[CheersMan]

I haven't had the chance to watch the Larsson kid play, so I cant comment on that!

 I am probably dreaming, but if we could swing a Wideman-for-Larsson deal, it would provide us with the high-end D prospect we need. Yes, it weakens us a bit now, but he has put up 27 points in 129 games on a defensive team. He is still only 21 years old. I think he fits this organization, and could develop at a pace he needs.

 

Maybe you should watch some hockey games so that you can provide some meaningful comments here.

 

Okay, then perhaps something has changed from last year.  To be honest, I've barely seen any games this year as I've been pretty busy.  Hoping November is better.   If Brodie's defense is up, then yes, that's the discrepancy.

 

 

I'm not expecting Wideman to get traded either right now (and I'd also support it).

 

But...what's this about us in a playoff hunt?  We've won 5 games out of 11 played.   Is this a new kind of math?  Or just going by current standings?   We're already out of the playoffs with pre-injury play and we're over-achieving.  This is not going to be a pretty year.

 

I suppose that if we won out next couple games, we would technically be in the playoff hunt.  But that is both unlikly, and as well as a short-lived projection.  If anything, out current projection (which has us out of the playoffs) is flattering. 

 

 

I agree, they won't.   They probably should, but they won't.  They will wait to the deadline.   It will depend on his health and performance at that time, whether he still has value.

 

Over achieving???  Where did you hear that?  On the bus?

[kehatch]

JJ, as it stands right now the Flames are in a playoff hunt. I don't believe we will finish the season that way, but that wasn't the point. The team is asking for the playoffs, we are in a playoff spot, so we aren't going to start trading away assets

[cross16]

Okay, then perhaps something has changed from last year.  To be honest, I've barely seen any games this year as I've been pretty busy.  Hoping November is better.   If Brodie's defense is up, then yes, that's the discrepancy.

 

 

I'm not expecting Wideman to get traded either right now (and I'd also support it).

 

But...what's this about us in a playoff hunt?  We've won 5 games out of 11 played.   Is this a new kind of math?  Or just going by current standings?   We're already out of the playoffs with pre-injury play and we're over-achieving.  This is not going to be a pretty year.

 

I suppose that if we won out next couple games, we would technically be in the playoff hunt.  But that is both unlikly, and as well as a short-lived projection.  If anything, out current projection (which has us out of the playoffs) is flattering. 

 

 

I agree, they won't.   They probably should, but they won't.  They will wait to the deadline.   It will depend on his health and performance at that time, whether he still has value.

Why would you need to watch this year? If you did last year you would have seen Brodie's defence and even last year it was without question top 4 calibre. He shut down, on his own without gio, more then a few top players last year. Clearly you saw something else but I think most will tell your and the numbers back it up, that TJ played fantastic defence last year. Offence may have been his best skill set when he was drafted but he's developed his defence to a top tier level.

[gsp393]

Ive always thought brodie was underated, and this year hes proven it. 2nd in the nhl in points, +6 on the year, and has visibly been near lights out defensively. He's not the flashy and sexy #1 everyone wants, but he's likely in the top 25 in the league as well as a very capable first pairing dman, and he's only now reaching his ceiling!

 

I was very impressed by wotherspoon during his call-up last year. If he's playing at that level this early into his career it's not unreasonable to think he could become a solid top 4 in a number of years.

[cccsberg]

Ive always thought brodie was underated, and this year hes proven it. 2nd in the nhl in points, +6 on the year, and has visibly been near lights out defensively. He's not the flashy and sexy #1 everyone wants, but he's likely in the top 25 in the league as well as a very capable first pairing dman, and he's only now reaching his ceiling!

Agree fully. Brodie is really stepping up big time. Strange this game, I hardly noticed Giordano out there. I guess just solid good plays but not too often up on the rush.

[kehatch]

Brodie is either leading the Flames or tied for the lead in points, plus/minus, and ice time. He is one goal away from being the goal leader as well.

[DirtyDeeds]

Brodie is either leading the Flames or tied for the lead in points, plus/minus, and ice time. He is one goal away from being the goal leader as well.

 

1 away from being the goal leader "for defensemen" that accomplishment is held by another Flame.

 

3 of the Flames Defensemen are in the top 15 goals scorers in the NHL.

 

[travel_dude]

Brodie has already tied his season high of 4 goals. At this pace, he could be in Norris discussion along with Gio. The dynamic duo continues to impress. Gio is rock steady and hit hard. Brodie adds the flash and sneaky-good play that you look at after the fact and say WTF. Or likely, how the _?

[tincup1]

I think Brodie is underrated in large part because he plays here.  Until Don Cherry or someone like that gets in front of a national audience and tells the hockey world about him, he'll fly under the radar.  Giordano was outstanding for about 5 years before anyone else noticed.  That's fine with me and I think there are enough good players who don't mind being out of the spotlight that it's actually an advantage.

[CheersMan]

Tonight vs MTL the defense comes through once again.

 

[frozenwanderer]

I still can't believe some people think Brodie is not a top 4 D in any team. There is no doubt in my mind he will make top 4 D in any team and top 2 D in weaker teams.