Flames Defense

[nevermissashift]

19 hours ago, MAC331 said:

The only caution would be as cross indicated, maybe these past injuries produced a different player.

That is a variable for sure. Some guys have the ability to redevelop and some guys don't. We will see if he is one who can achieve something extra special again. If he doesn't reach levels of superstardom, he's still a good defenceman.

It'll be interesting to see who is in the lineup tonight. 

[Cowtownguy]

Many people (not just on this board) believed that our defence was among the top in the league. I don't understand how they suddenly forgot how to play hockey. I don't think that I have ever seen anything like this.

 

Gio - solid

Hamilton - good offence, average defence

Hamonic - average

Stone - below average, trade him

Brodie - below average

Kulak - average as expected (learning)

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

Many people (not just on this board) believed that our defence was among the top in the league. I don't understand how they suddenly forgot how to play hockey. I don't think that I have ever seen anything like this.

 

Gio - solid

Hamilton - good offence, average defence

Hamonic - average

Stone - below average, trade him

Brodie - below average

Kulak - average as expected (learning)

The game isn't played on paper.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

Many people (not just on this board) believed that our defence was among the top in the league. I don't understand how they suddenly forgot how to play hockey. I don't think that I have ever seen anything like this.

 

Gio - solid

Hamilton - good offence, average defence

Hamonic - average

Stone - below average, trade him

Brodie - below average

Kulak - average as expected (learning)

 

Your grades are fair.  What it fails to show is how they stand up by themselves. 

Gio without Hammy and Hammy without Gio.

Hammer with someone other than Brodie.

Brodie on RD.

Kulak without Stone.

Andersson without Stone.

 

Quality of competition also plays a part.  Strangely enough, Brodie played as many minute (or more) as the top pair, and played against the best lines almost as much.

The other thing that fails to show up is the unit they play with.  How often did the top pair play with the shutdown unit.  Or the top line play with the 2nd or 3rd pair.

 

So, here' where I have problems quantifying.  Brodie was a top RD or played LD with Engelland/Wideman/other under another system.  He was great to good to passable. 

What happened to him.  Personal issues aside, he looks lost.  It's like he has a blind spot in the middle of his vision.  He has the puck more but can;t decide what to do with it other than skate.   

[MAC331]

8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Your grades are fair.  What it fails to show is how they stand up by themselves. 

Gio without Hammy and Hammy without Gio.

Hammer with someone other than Brodie.

Brodie on RD.

Kulak without Stone.

Andersson without Stone.

 

Quality of competition also plays a part.  Strangely enough, Brodie played as many minute (or more) as the top pair, and played against the best lines almost as much.

The other thing that fails to show up is the unit they play with.  How often did the top pair play with the shutdown unit.  Or the top line play with the 2nd or 3rd pair.

 

So, here' where I have problems quantifying.  Brodie was a top RD or played LD with Engelland/Wideman/other under another system.  He was great to good to passable. 

What happened to him.  Personal issues aside, he looks lost.  It's like he has a blind spot in the middle of his vision.  He has the puck more but can;t decide what to do with it other than skate.   

Maybe Brodie just had a few good seasons.

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Maybe Brodie just had a few good seasons.

 

Maybe the coach is an idiot.

[MAC331]

22 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Maybe the coach is an idiot.

Maybe he isn't.

[cross16]

On 3/30/2018 at 9:06 AM, Cowtownguy said:

Many people (not just on this board) believed that our defence was among the top in the league. I don't understand how they suddenly forgot how to play hockey. I don't think that I have ever seen anything like this.

 

Gio - solid

Hamilton - good offence, average defence

Hamonic - average

Stone - below average, trade him

Brodie - below average

Kulak - average as expected (learning)

 

They didn't. The unfortunate aspect of this season as it relates to the D core is the trends were there and they just didn't reverse. Brodie-Hamonic have been in steady decline for a couple seasons now and the belief was a new environment could reverse that and better show case their talents. I don't think it was an illogical thought and the evidence was there to believe it but it's just not how it worked out. Unfortunately the whole idea of the Flames having one of the best D cores in the league rested on that idea so not hard to see how it got to this point. 

 

Brodie and Hamonic are Phaneuf -Regher all over again. You really want it to work. on paper it should work but the chemistry and execution are just not there but the trend and play of them individually is unfortunately not new. 

[Cowtownguy]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

They didn't. The unfortunate aspect of this season as it relates to the D core is the trends were there and they just didn't reverse. Brodie-Hamonic have been in steady decline for a couple seasons now and the belief was a new environment could reverse that and better show case their talents. I don't think it was an illogical thought and the evidence was there to believe it but it's just not how it worked out. Unfortunately the whole idea of the Flames having one of the best D cores in the league rested on that idea so not hard to see how it got to this point. 

 

Brodie and Hamonic are Phaneuf -Regher all over again. You really want it to work. on paper it should work but the chemistry and execution are just not there but the trend and play of them individually is unfortunately not new. 

I don't know man. A lot of commentators on Sportsnet, CBC, and TSN thought that we had a solid core going into the season, on paper anyways.

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I don't know man. A lot of commentators on Sportsnet, CBC, and TSN thought that we had a solid core going into the season, on paper anyways.

 

Well, first that shows you how much stock you should put in commentators 

 

But as I said there was justified reason for the optimism. I didn't think the Flames had a top d core but I thought they'd be in and around the top 10, so I too was fairly optimistic. Like i said there was reasons for it, but what I don't agree with is suddenly the players went the other way. Has Brodie really played worse this season then last? i don't personally think so. I'm not sure how much you saw of Hamonic the last couple years but IMO Hamonic has actually played better this year as a Flame then he did last year on the Island.

 

The belief was that a stable and better partner for Brodie would get him back to 2 years ago. The belief was that a fresh start and further away from injury would bring Hamonic back to the level he played at 2-3 seasons ago. If both of those things occur, we aren't having this conversation but that's just not how it went. Doesn't mean the talent isn't there, it just didn't work out as intended and I don't think it's wrong to be surprised. 

[Cowtownguy]

There has to be ways to get them on track. Why can't Hamilton hurt something out there? He is a big boy. Go all Clockwork Orange on him in reverse if need be. Brodie needs glasses or something. Hook up Stone to a machine that nails him in the nads every time he slaps the puck and hits the jumbotron. I do believe that there is more potential in this group, and that a few pairing changes are in order. If they stay pat, then at least try different pairings.

 

I do think that some of the problems are even higher up than Treliving. We have a half Feaster selected team built for a Hartley style game playing under a Treliving/GG system. We have the wrong players for this system.

[The_People1]

53 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

 

I do think that some of the problems are even higher up than Treliving. We have a half Feaster selected team built for a Hartley style game playing under a Treliving/GG system. We have the wrong players for this system.

 

In terms of our D, I think only Gio and Brodie remain from the Hartley era.  And I think only Brodie has suffered from too much Hartley hockey.  He needs to go.  

 

After that, no excuses.  This D is built for GG.

[DirtyDeeds]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

In terms of our D, I think only Gio and Brodie remain from the Hartley era.  And I think only Brodie has suffered from too much Hartley hockey.  He needs to go.  

 

After that, no excuses.  This D is built for GG.

Brodie was fine when paired with Gio.

Brodie was fine playing on the right side.

 

It was GG that changed his side.

It was GG that split up that pairing.

 

It had nothing to do with too much Hartley.

[CheersMan]

16 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Brodie was fine when paired with Gio.

Brodie was fine playing on the right side.

 

It was GG that changed his side.

It was GG that split up that pairing.

 

It had nothing to do with too much Hartley.

I think full credit goes to Treeliving (the puppet master) on this one.  GG only does what he is told.

[cross16]

15 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Brodie was fine when paired with Gio.

Brodie was fine playing on the right side.

 

 

It had nothing to do with too much Hartley.

 

Well except for the fact that Brodie played arguably the best hockey of his career paired on the left side with Engelland. Never mind that Gio-Hamilton has turned into a better pairing than Gio-Brodie were. 

 

I agree with Peeps, Brodie was tailored made to Hartley's system. Brodie's strengths are to skate, skate with the puck, hold the puck and to improvise because his got the skating ability to do that, do everything quick. Gulutzan's system is a fair bit different than that and unfortunately it's minimized Brodie's strengths and brought out his weaknesses. 

[MAC331]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well except for the fact that Brodie played arguably the best hockey of his career paired on the left side with Engelland. Never mind that Gio-Hamilton has turned into a better pairing than Gio-Brodie were. 

 

I agree with Peeps, Brodie was tailored made to Hartley's system. Brodie's strengths are to skate, skate with the puck, hold the puck and to improvise because his got the skating ability to do that, do everything quick. Gulutzan's system is a fair bit different than that and unfortunately it's minimized Brodie's strengths and brought out his weaknesses. 

I would say with what we have coming on for LS defensemen why not trade Brodie this offseason and Giordano the following offseason.

[420since1974]

Brodie is definitely trade-able, but I'm not sure if we could get any decent value for him right now.

Barring an attractive offer, I'd keep him for another season and hope that he regains his game.

 

Giordano has a Full NTC until the end of 2019/2020.

His contract then changes to a Modified NTC (19 team list that he can be traded to) for the last two years.

 

As for LSD in the pipeline:

 

I think that Wotherspoon could step up to a #6 or #7 D on the Flames next season.

Would we be comfortable moving Kulak up to the 2nd pairing?

 

I feel that Kylington and Valimaki both are at least one more year away from making the Flames roster.

My guess is that Kylington could still top out as a 2nd paring D, but he needs a lot of improvement for that to happen.

 

I'm somewhat confident that Valimaki will ultimately become a 2nd pairing NHL D.

In my dreams, someday he becomes a replacement for Giordano on the Top pairing.

Then again, we have yet to see if his game will even translate to the AHL, let alone the NHL.

 

I have yet to see anything that makes me hopeful that Healy will ever make it to the NHL.

Am I missing anyone who has a chance at the show on the left side in the next two years?

[CheersMan]

6 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well except for the fact that Brodie played arguably the best hockey of his career paired on the left side with Engelland. Never mind that Gio-Hamilton has turned into a better pairing than Gio-Brodie were. 

 

I agree with Peeps, Brodie was tailored made to Hartley's system. Brodie's strengths are to skate, skate with the puck, hold the puck and to improvise because his got the skating ability to do that, do everything quick. Gulutzan's system is a fair bit different than that and unfortunately it's minimized Brodie's strengths and brought out his weaknesses. 

Brodie's strengths can win you hockey games.  I'll take skill over so called "system" any day.  This will be one of the easier decisions for our off-season GM.  

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well except for the fact that Brodie played arguably the best hockey of his career paired on the left side with Engelland. Never mind that Gio-Hamilton has turned into a better pairing than Gio-Brodie were. 

 

I agree with Peeps, Brodie was tailored made to Hartley's system. Brodie's strengths are to skate, skate with the puck, hold the puck and to improvise because his got the skating ability to do that, do everything quick. Gulutzan's system is a fair bit different than that and unfortunately it's minimized Brodie's strengths and brought out his weaknesses. 

 

Brodie was better when played with Gio.  The Engelland-Brodie combo was put together because of the Gio injury, but at the time he was playing his best hockey.   Engelland provided the defensive stability that Brodie needed to be able to wheel.  Yes, the coaching has been a big detriment to Brodie, but part of that was losing his top pair spot to Hammy, just because he is a LHS. 

 

A coaching change will help Brodie, but Hammer is not the right guy to play with.  Maybe Gio-Hammer, Brodie-Hammy, if you keep him on LD.  You do that, and one of them needs to play back.

[DirtyDeeds]

9 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Well except for the fact that Brodie played arguably the best hockey of his career paired on the left side with Engelland. Never mind that Gio-Hamilton has turned into a better pairing than Gio-Brodie were. 

 

I agree with Peeps, Brodie was tailored made to Hartley's system. Brodie's strengths are to skate, skate with the puck, hold the puck and to improvise because his got the skating ability to do that, do everything quick. Gulutzan's system is a fair bit different than that and unfortunately it's minimized Brodie's strengths and brought out his weaknesses. 

Umm no.. He was in conversation along with Gio for Norris when paired together.

I don't recall him ever being talked about for Norris when paired with Engelland. If he had played better than with Gio then why nothing for Norris?

 

Brodies best year was 2015-16 the the last year of Bob Hartley. Not 2014-15 when he played a lot with Engelland while Gio was hurt(Mar 2 / 15). He played most of that year up to March with Gio anyway.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Umm no.. He was in conversation along with Gio for Norris when paired together.

I don't recall him ever being talked about for Norris when paired with Engelland. If he had played better than with Gio then why nothing for Norris?

 

Brodies best year was 2015-16 the the last year of Bob Hartley. Not 2014-15 when he played a lot with Engelland while Gio was hurt(Mar 2 / 15). He played most of that year up to March with Gio anyway.

You all need to quit looking in the rear view mirror when it comes to Brodie. They are not going to switch out Hamilton so Brodie can go back with Giordano. Brodie has ALWAYS been a defensive one liability and now his indecisiveness on offense has made him a much different players. It is time to quit blaming others and put the blame for his play where it belongs with him.

[MAC331]

15 hours ago, 420since1974 said:

Brodie is definitely trade-able, but I'm not sure if we could get any decent value for him right now.

Barring an attractive offer, I'd keep him for another season and hope that he regains his game.

 

Giordano has a Full NTC until the end of 2019/2020.

His contract then changes to a Modified NTC (19 team list that he can be traded to) for the last two years.

 

As for LSD in the pipeline:

 

I think that Wotherspoon could step up to a #6 or #7 D on the Flames next season.

Would we be comfortable moving Kulak up to the 2nd pairing?

 

I feel that Kylington and Valimaki both are at least one more year away from making the Flames roster.

My guess is that Kylington could still top out as a 2nd paring D, but he needs a lot of improvement for that to happen.

 

I'm somewhat confident that Valimaki will ultimately become a 2nd pairing NHL D.

In my dreams, someday he becomes a replacement for Giordano on the Top pairing.

Then again, we have yet to see if his game will even translate to the AHL, let alone the NHL.

 

I have yet to see anything that makes me hopeful that Healy will ever make it to the NHL.

Am I missing anyone who has a chance at the show on the left side in the next two years?

I think you have addressed what there is for LSD within the pipeline. With everything you hear Valimaki is mature and leads wherever he has played so I think he becomes the ideal replacement for Giordano with gained NHL experience. Is Kylington a reasonable consideration to replace Brodie ? I agree not right now. Healy from what I hear maybe weighs in as a bottom pairing defenseman.

The question IMO is there any better answer to Brodie through UFA or trade that provides a 2 year deal for a better defensive defenseman. Ideally I agree we should buy both Valimaki and Kylington 2 years and if they push any sooner great. I wouldn't be pushing to have Giordano leave any sooner than those two years either.

[cross16]

14 hours ago, CheersMan said:

Brodie's strengths can win you hockey games.  I'll take skill over so called "system" any day.  This will be one of the easier decisions for our off-season GM.  

 

Sure but his weakness can lose you games too. 

 

Brodie is a catch 22. tons of natural skill, beautiful skater but playing more structured has exposed an avg to below avg hockey IQ. And I think it's also improtant to remember that while sure the offensive numbers were impressive under Hartley, the Flames were a train wreck defensively. Not that easy to just say go back to the old way, and not as simple to just blame it all on coaching. 

 

11 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Umm no.. He was in conversation along with Gio for Norris when paired together.

I don't recall him ever being talked about for Norris when paired with Engelland. If he had played better than with Gio then why nothing for Norris?

 

Brodies best year was 2015-16 the the last year of Bob Hartley. Not 2014-15 when he played a lot with Engelland while Gio was hurt(Mar 2 / 15). He played most of that year up to March with Gio anyway.

 

If you want to use raw stats sure then 15-16 was his best year but I personally would disagree. 14-15 was the best year of TJ Brodie and when Gio went down he stepped up in a massive way. I will always maintain that the stretch of hockey he played with Engelland was his best. He was dominant, both ends of the ice and basically put the core on his back. Basically he played the way Gio's played the last few seasons.

 

Interesting enough in 15-16 he didn't even garner a vote for the Norris but yet in 14-15 he finished 18th in voting. 14-15 was his best seasons and actually in 15-16 you started to see signs of his decline despite still playing with Gio. 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Sure but his weakness can lose you games too. 

 

Brodie is a catch 22. tons of natural skill, beautiful skater but playing more structured has exposed an avg to below avg hockey IQ. And I think it's also improtant to remember that while sure the offensive numbers were impressive under Hartley, the Flames were a train wreck defensively. Not that easy to just say go back to the old way, and not as simple to just blame it all on coaching. 

 

 

If you want to use raw stats sure then 15-16 was his best year but I personally would disagree. 14-15 was the best year of TJ Brodie and when Gio went down he stepped up in a massive way. I will always maintain that the stretch of hockey he played with Engelland was his best. He was dominant, both ends of the ice and basically put the core on his back. Basically he played the way Gio's played the last few seasons.

 

Interesting enough in 15-16 he didn't even garner a vote for the Norris but yet in 14-15 he finished 18th in voting. 14-15 was his best seasons and actually in 15-16 you started to see signs of his decline despite still playing with Gio. 

I think the bottom line regarding Brodie is if there is a deal out there that helps improve the Flames take it. If there is no good deal out there keep him, split him and Hamonic up and have him play less time.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Sure but his weakness can lose you games too. 

 

Brodie is a catch 22. tons of natural skill, beautiful skater but playing more structured has exposed an avg to below avg hockey IQ. And I think it's also improtant to remember that while sure the offensive numbers were impressive under Hartley, the Flames were a train wreck defensively. Not that easy to just say go back to the old way, and not as simple to just blame it all on coaching. 

 

 

If you want to use raw stats sure then 15-16 was his best year but I personally would disagree. 14-15 was the best year of TJ Brodie and when Gio went down he stepped up in a massive way. I will always maintain that the stretch of hockey he played with Engelland was his best. He was dominant, both ends of the ice and basically put the core on his back. Basically he played the way Gio's played the last few seasons.

 

Interesting enough in 15-16 he didn't even garner a vote for the Norris but yet in 14-15 he finished 18th in voting. 14-15 was his best seasons and actually in 15-16 you started to see signs of his decline despite still playing with Gio. 

 

Right now, the system we are using isn’t working for him. 

Is he a Schultz situation where he’s been used poorly and you go to a team that plays uptempo hockey and he is used more efficiently? 

 

I have a feeling that this more the case and another team will benefit from his skills. But if we keep him and have the same system it doesn’t work for both sides.