The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[kehatch]

I treat the press about an Arena expansion about as seriously as I do press about an NHL CBA negotiation. Its all posturing until the deal is done.  

[Cowtownguy]

I treat the press about an Arena expansion about as seriously as I do press about an NHL CBA negotiation. Its all posturing until the deal is done.  

It is more a matter of when than if don't you think?

[tmac70]

If Rachel Notley cares about the environment, then she will clean up the creosote.  Right?  Borrow and spend man. Do it the NDP way.

 

Not to mention, this project would be a great way to put locals back to work and invest in the local economy.

 

What's the procedure for cleaning up creosote?  With the railroad adjacent to the hazardous zone, I'm thinking just mass dig the stuff out, fill railcars with it, send the railcars to the west coast, send the stuff to China, and then let China bury it somewhere in China.  That can't possible cost more than $50-million in total.  Heck, put it in the Greyhound buses and put the whole bus on the boat and wave it goodbye.

 

Are we talking like, we have to build a giant retaining wall along the river before/when we dig?  Are we talking about potential leakage into the river during clean-up?  Does the stuff vapourize into the air once it leaves the ground?  Does 100% of the hazardous material have to be removed or can we work with 95% removed?  So many questions.

Reclamation projects are costly and time consuming. Basically dig till the creosote's out and back fill with clean dirt to fill the removed portion till it is equal grade to the level you removed. The depth of which is dug could vary in certain areas. This is why in commercial real estate old gas stations are expensive purchase. It may be that that the soil can or will not be salvageable dependant on how deep the penetration of substance is in the soil.

[travel_dude]

If Rachel Notley cares about the environment, then she will clean up the creosote.  Right?  Borrow and spend man. Do it the NDP way.

 

Not to mention, this project would be a great way to put locals back to work and invest in the local economy.

 

What's the procedure for cleaning up creosote?  With the railroad adjacent to the hazardous zone, I'm thinking just mass dig the stuff out, fill railcars with it, send the railcars to the west coast, send the stuff to China, and then let China bury it somewhere in China.  That can't possible cost more than $50-million in total.  Heck, put it in the Greyhound buses and put the whole bus on the boat and wave it goodbye.

 

Are we talking like, we have to build a giant retaining wall along the river before/when we dig?  Are we talking about potential leakage into the river during clean-up?  Does the stuff vapourize into the air once it leaves the ground?  Does 100% of the hazardous material have to be removed or can we work with 95% removed?  So many questions.

 

There was a report that the 'sote had leached into the soil under the river. so that would be a more difficult thing to fix.

[kehatch]

It is more a matter of when than if don't you think?

 

Its a matter of if.  It is also a matter of what.  It is very possible that the plan is adjusted if the location doesn't work out. 

 

One has to logically assume there is a back-up plan.  I know Ken said there isn't.  But i would question his competency if that was true.  This project had a lot of flags the second it was announced.  If the Flames honestly don't have a back-up plan in their pocket I am pretty concerned.  

[The_People1]

Or we could send the stuff to Vancouver...Edmonton...or Toronto! Lots of choices.

 

I like the Edmonton idea.  I think that would work the best. 

 

Reclamation projects are costly and time consuming. Basically dig till the creosote's out and back fill with clean dirt to fill the removed portion till it is equal grade to the level you removed. The depth of which is dug could vary in certain areas. This is why in commercial real estate old gas stations are expensive purchase. It may be that that the soil can or will not be salvageable dependant on how deep the penetration of substance is in the soil.

 

Time consuming, yes.  But costly, why?  We are located right next to the Rocky Mountains.  We have access to many types of rock.  We can backfill with hard clay or any manufactured grade of soil cheaper than any other city in the world.  There are also new high rises in downtown Calgary scheduled for construction/excavation.  Take the soil from there.

 

The railroad is adjacent to the hazardous zone so we can ship this stuff out of town quick.  The river is right there too so we can use the waterways to move it out (to a certain extent).

 

If it costs too much to dig it out, then how about dig it deeper?  Start digging underneath the soil so this bad batch drops further underground until it is irrelevant/safe.

 

What about neutralizing chemicals that we can pour into the soil to cancel the hazardous properties of creosote?  Has this been considered if this even exists?  If it doesn't exist, then can it be manufactured affordably for a one-time use?

 

Lastly, what about construction of the facilities without excavation?  OR do minimal soil disturbance?  So whatever the building design was, just elevate it.  Like, elevate local grade rather than digging deeper?

 

 

There was a report that the 'sote had leached into the soil under the river. so that would be a more difficult thing to fix.

 

I remember hearing that too and was used by the Flames group as a reminder that we should hurry to dispose of the creosote before it seaps into the river.  Hopefully the environmentally conscience NDP was listening.   Yes, that could complicate things but still, maybe just section that part of contaminants away.  This facility is not going on top of the river so leave the creosote underneath the river and let it be.  Just clean up what needs to be cleaned up.

 

Just sayin, maybe it doesn't have to be an "all or none" scenario with the clean-up.  Maybe cleaning most of it and containing the rest is good enough.

[Carty]

Or we could send the stuff to Vancouver...Edmonton...or Toronto! Lots of choices.

 

I like the Edmonton idea.  I think that would work the best. 

 

Send it addressed to Kesler in the Ducks locker room...   It should be enough to fill the Honda Center and end the curse of the duck pond...

[Cowtownguy]

Its a matter of if.  It is also a matter of what.  It is very possible that the plan is adjusted if the location doesn't work out. 

 

One has to logically assume there is a back-up plan.  I know Ken said there isn't.  But i would question his competency if that was true.  This project had a lot of flags the second it was announced.  If the Flames honestly don't have a back-up plan in their pocket I am pretty concerned.  

It sounds as though King has been working on this for years, so there must be good reason for how they are approaching it. I was surprised that they brought this up with an NDP provincial government in power coupled with Nenshi being so opposed to it. Also surprising was the price tag which will likely increase with the Canadian dollar now competing with the peso. This is why it hit me when Nenshi was supportive of a group wanting to host the Winter Olympics. That would bring in federal and provincial dollars to build a new facility and make it less politically toxic at all levels. On average, sports organizations realize a 25% increase in revenue after a new building is constructed. 

 

As Peeps said above, I don't quite understand why cleaning up the area will be so expensive. Surely, anything dumped in the river cannot be dealt with now.

[DirtyDeeds]

An acceptable procedure to clean up creosote is to burn it or use high temperatures and turn it into gas to clean up the contamination.

 

Here is a link with a cleanup in a similar area from a former wooden utility pole treatment plant. ( Similar in that it is near a river, is creosote contaminated land, only 6 years ago, companies changed hands before cleanup and costs were issue for public.)

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/settlement-reached-clean-idaho-s-st-maries-creosote-superfund-site

 

What I see from this article is:

70,000 cu yds of contaminated soil was going to take about 12+ million US to clean up with this method.

Two companies and the city of St. Maries, Idaho are now responsible for the cleanup costs.

This cleanup site is on a local tribe reservation.

This settlement is over and above a previous site cleanup.

 

The agreement that resolves the complaint also includes a payment to the United States of $555,951.23 for EPA’s past clean up and oversight costs, and a $5,000 payment to the tribe for its past oversight costs.

 

I guess we can take and compare a few similarities from this settlement and the associated responsibilities.

[CheersMan]

If we can launch a vehicle into space, travel 9 months, then land the vehicle safely on another rock not named earth, all the while the vehicle reports back with pictures and numerous scientific study’s for months on end, surely we can organize a few shovels, trucks and pumps to clean up some contaminated soil and water in the heart of a thriving city. 

When this clean up does start, it will be all or nothing.  Obviously what happens under the river stays under the river, there will be no digging going on there.  If you want the dream development as described in the Flames proposal, then the entire area south of the river will need cleaned up to make way for unconditional future development.  Leaving contamination in the ground outside of the building footprint does not welcome additional commercial and residential development that the city will need to draw tax dollars from.  As Kehatch mentioned above, the meat of the negotiations has yet to begin, hopefully the negotiations proceed and conclude in a professional manner (not like up north), because the end result should benefit all.

[Cowtownguy]

I see that Bettman and Nenshi have been speaking through the media. http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgarians-and-the-mayor-must-embrace-flames-arena-project-says-nhl-commissioner

 

I wonder why the Flames don't suggest an airport tax to collect some money for CalgaryNEXT. Some other cities do so in order to get "free" money from people travelling to their cities. That way, the impact on Calgarians would be decreased. Add in some cash from the city/province to clean up the area, and they would be closer.

[kehatch]

I am pretty disappointed with Nenshis response. I understand the need to get the facts before making a decision. I am all for the city doing their due diligence.

But his response in media and on twitter is antagonistic. He insulted the NHL commissioner and inadvertently King and the Flames. His comments to Francis on twitter were immature. He generally resorts to grade school level insults when he had disagreed with people.

[JTech780]

I am pretty disappointed with Nenshis response. I understand the need to get the facts before making a decision. I am all for the city doing their due diligence.

But his response in media and on twitter is antagonistic. He insulted the NHL commissioner and inadvertently King and the Flames. His comments to Francis on twitter were immature. He generally resorts to grade school level insults when he had disagreed with people.

To be fair Bettman was the antagonist in this scenario. Saying that Calgary can't have the NHL draft or All Star game till they get a new arena, or that by 2017 the battle of AB will still be legendary but the battle of AB arenas won't even be close, or that Calgarynext is needed in Calgary and by that definition work needs to begin immediately, or that there is no way this gets done as a private venture.

These were all directed at Nenshi.

As much as I want Calgary to get a new arena, there is a history of cities in NA getting screwed over by paying for sports arenas.

[cfreining]

The usually roaring to strenghten the position in a negotiation.

 

barking dogs don't bite...

[Cowtownguy]

I am pretty disappointed with Nenshis response. I understand the need to get the facts before making a decision. I am all for the city doing their due diligence.

But his response in media and on twitter is antagonistic. He insulted the NHL commissioner and inadvertently King and the Flames. His comments to Francis on twitter were immature. He generally resorts to grade school level insults when he had disagreed with people.

I agree that it was poorly played by Nenshi and rather antagonistic too. At the same time, he has made it clear that he will not spend money on a new arena. I am not quite sure I believe him though. I find it odd that Nenshi apparently had a full schedule and Bettman comes in just expecting him to drop everything to talk to him. Overall, I think all of these people need to maintain a more cordial tone and problem-solve. The Flames don't want this to turn ugly and I am sure Nenshi wants to keep the team happy.

 

Nenshi seemed really choked. That is a little unusual.

[cross16]

I don't love Nenshi's response either but that is his style he is going to build his persona through the media and his wit but I agree with JTech that King and Bettman have really back him into a corner. You can't really have a debate until you know all the costs and the flames submitted a half checking from behind proposal without th full cost outlined. Until that remediation study is done there is really no point of having a debate because that number could change the whole landscape. Then you have the flames and Bettman coming out and threatening the fan base by saying we need a new arena or else w are going to lose our team, all star game, draft etc. I thought it was really classless of Bettman and the flames to stoop to that level especially considering that it was them that has sat on this proposal for years now and only recently unveiled it and did so without even all the facts necessary to have a discussion about.

Quite frankly, Ken king has mismanaged this whole situation from the word go. Very poor job on his part and then he brings in his hired gun to amp up he pressure. BS IMO.

[kehatch]

I would have been fine with him not attending, stating he was going to wait for the results of the evaluation before getting dragged into a debate, and leaving it at that.

But watching him respond to Francis and Calgarians on social media with a sarcastic grade school approach isn't what I want to see from our mayor. Especially not when talking about something near and dear to many of us.

[robrob1974]

I didn't see the twitter quotes. But it sounds like Betman threw some shotty punches at the city. IF you wanna be a good city, you better have a  good arena. I don't get why the actual league can't help fund these arenas. They probably get a deal on the land that they use in the first place. Also, they can make more money off of the tickets from other shows/bands/sports anyway.

I would have been fine with him not attending, stating he was going to wait for the results of the evaluation before getting dragged into a debate, and leaving it at that.

But watching him respond to Francis and Calgarians on social media with a sarcastic grade school approach isn't what I want to see from our mayor. Especially not when talking about something near and dear to many of us.

 

 

It sounds like a school yard bully came to the park and bullied your mayor. Batman sounded like an entitled dick. 

[kehatch]

I understand the logic behind not funding arenas for billionaires. But it is what it is. If you want a football team and you want a hockey team then you need to invest public funding into arenas. It's true for every arena in the NHL.

I agree Ken King has mismanaged this. But Nenshi clearly is an obstacle and King is trying to do what he can to win the public debate. But I didn't see anything from Bettman that was off base. At least for Bettman.

He stated the facts. Calgary's arena was great but it is outdated and needs to be replaced. He stated the drawbacks of not having a decent arenas. And he he made a number of good points. Now is a good time to replace it because it's cheaper to do now then in the future and this is an opportunity to stimulate the economy and create jobs.

[cross16]

I understand the logic behind not funding arenas for billionaires. But it is what it is. If you want a football team and you want a hockey team then you need to invest public funding into arenas. It's true for every arena in the NHL.

I agree Ken King has mismanaged this. But Nenshi clearly is an obstacle and King is trying to do what he can to win the public debate. But I didn't see anything from Bettman that was off base. At least for Bettman.

He stated the facts. Calgary's arena was great but it is outdated and needs to be replaced. He stated the drawbacks of not having a decent arenas. And he he made a number of good points. Now is a good time to replace it because it's cheaper to do now then in the future and this is an opportunity to stimulate the economy and create jobs.

And hang taxpayers with a 500 million or more bill at a time when our tax rates have gone up over 50% in the last 5-7 years?

I don't think anyone disagrees that need for a new building its about funding and until we know the cost, which by the way Bettman doesn't even know because the flames did a poor job handling this, I don't think we can agre this is a good time. Report on the remediation comes back in April/May and then they can discuss it because they will know the costs. While I agree Nenshi's got a bit childish the point he was trying to make is why are we having a public debate when a full proposal hasn't been submitted and IMO he's right.

[robrob1974]

I understand the logic behind not funding arenas for billionaires. But it is what it is. If you want a football team and you want a hockey team then you need to invest public funding into arenas. It's true for every arena in the NHL.

I agree Ken King has mismanaged this. But Nenshi clearly is an obstacle and King is trying to do what he can to win the public debate. But I didn't see anything from Bettman that was off base. At least for Bettman.

He stated the facts. Calgary's arena was great but it is outdated and needs to be replaced. He stated the drawbacks of not having a decent arenas. And he he made a number of good points. Now is a good time to replace it because it's cheaper to do now then in the future and this is an opportunity to stimulate the economy and create jobs.

 

Just because Bettman was Bettman doesn't make his comments right. Bettman talked about process with other potential owners (Ballsillie) trying to get into the league, then turns around and doesn't respect the process the city is practicing at the moment. The city hasn't made a decision yet on the proposal, and the city isn't saying no to an arena. It's saying the finances within the proposal sounds off and seems to be pointing on more money from the city that the city is willing to pay. 

 

Maybe the city will help, but under a different area and different financials. 

[rickross]

It's hard to fault Nenshi in this case. In a way it's refreshing to see a mayor stand up to the powers that be. Of course Bettman wants a new arena..he's a businessmen and new arenas bring him more revenue. I think Nenshi is being a realist, albeit a harsh realist but in a down economy can u blame him? He just wants to see some concrete numbers and analytics before entering discussions, who wouldn't it's a 1 billion + project. If the Flames are so compelled and desperate why not put up more of their own funds?

[kehatch]

And hang taxpayers with a 500 million or more bill at a time when our tax rates have gone up over 50% in the last 5-7 years?

I don't think anyone disagrees that need for a new building its about funding and until we know the cost, which by the way Bettman doesn't even know because the flames did a poor job handling this, I don't think we can agre this is a good time. Report on the remediation comes back in April/May and then they can discuss it because they will know the costs. While I agree Nenshi's got a bit childish the point he was trying to make is why are we having a public debate when a full proposal hasn't been submitted and IMO he's right.

But he started the public debate when he expressed his scepticism that the budget will balance and said that if it doesn't there is nothing to talk about. You can't start the public debate and then clam up when the other side responds.

I am not against Nenshi and I don't like King. I think King has managed this poorly. I also dislike the little of the proposal that has been released.

But comments about some rich guy (Bettman) from New York telling us how to be Calgarians isn't okay. His childish attacks on a media (Francis) for making reasonable statements isn't okay. The various sarcastic comments he made to Calgarians on social media for having the audacity to disagree with him isn't okay.

And there will be public money spent. Or there won't be a football and hockey team. Nenshi has taken a hard line stance early and I think that has prompted the Flames to start flinging back.

This think turning into a fire fight isn't in Calgarians best interest. Nenshi needs to stop making it a fire fight.

[tmac70]

Each person is going to posture. That all stated, the president has been set with the Coilers getting a new rink. Harsh reality, either Calgary steps up and builds the thing or the they will go to a location that will support it, simply facts. I believe the NHL and Flames organization would prefer to stay in Calgary but I would not blame them for moving if they don't get the arena.

[cross16]

But he started the public debate when he expressed his scepticism that the budget will balance and said that if it doesn't there is nothing to talk about. You can't start the public debate and then clam up when the other side responds.

I am not against Nenshi and I don't like King. I think King has managed this poorly. I also dislike the little of the proposal that has been released.

But comments about some rich guy (Bettman) from New York telling us how to be Calgarians isn't okay. His childish attacks on a media (Francis) for making reasonable statements isn't okay. The various sarcastic comments he made to Calgarians on social media for having the audacity to disagree with him isn't okay.

And there will be public money spent. Or there won't be a football and hockey team. Nenshi has taken a hard line stance early and I think that has prompted the Flames to start flinging back.

This think turning into a fire fight isn't in Calgarians best interest. Nenshi needs to stop making it a fire fight.

 

Agreed that the twitter battle doesn't need to happen. He had his press conference and I thought everything he said in the press conference was sufficient and there was no need to take it to twitter that I agree with.

 

However, I do respect where Nenshi is coming from because he is the one being attacked not the Flames. The City isn't running a campaign against Calgary Next, but the Flames are running one for it (as they should) and really are laying the blame right at Nenshi/council's door. Consdiering that to date the Flames have not given him a complete proposal, we don't know what the cost it and we won't until April/May I can understand why Nenshi is getting his back up a bit becaues he is having this layed at a his door when to date he has done what is necessary to move the project. Until that remediation report comes back there is really nothing to do. Really the Flames should never have started a public ad campagin until they had a full proposal and knew all the costs. 

 

But I do agree, he took it too far but thats Nenshi. Part of the reason I"m not a fan is because of his need to sensationalize things on social media and i'm not a huge fan of any public servant doing that. 

 

I also agree there will be public money in there and i'm fine with that but i'm not fine with public money footing ove 50% of the bill especially at a time when the city is not flush with cash. I dispute this notion that now is the prefect time to build becuase costs are down and we need jobs. I agree with that, but with most pepole in Calgary tight financially and the city tight financially I don't think its a good time to commit to an over 500million bill that no one would see as a smart investment. Your robbing Peter to pay Paul so I think overal the net benefit is not overly large.