The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[redfire11]

Detroit and the state of Michigan are nearly bankrupt and yet they are doing what it takes to ensure the Wings get a new facility.

 

"The initial base price is $450 million. Problems, changes and added amenities could increase that final cost. Anything beyond $450 million must be paid by the Ilitches. The ancillary development — bars, restaurants, stores, apartments, townhomes — is at least $200 million, and will be privately financed by the Ilitches and their third-party business partners. The Ilitches are obligated to pay any arena costs beyond the $450 million. Their business empire, which includes the Little Caesars pizza chain, had $3.1 billion in 2013 revenue.

The Michigan Strategic Fund will sell $450 million in two series of bonds. They will be divided into $250 million in Series A bonds that will be backed by property taxes already captured by the Downtown Development Authority. The $200 million in Series B bonds will be backed by the $11.5 million Olympia Development has agreed to pay the DDA for bond retirement."

 

Makes me wonder just how committed the city of Calgary and the province of Alberta is.

 

 

[robrob74]

37 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

Detroit and the state of Michigan are nearly bankrupt and yet they are doing what it takes to ensure the Wings get a new facility.

 

"The initial base price is $450 million. Problems, changes and added amenities could increase that final cost. Anything beyond $450 million must be paid by the Ilitches. The ancillary development — bars, restaurants, stores, apartments, townhomes — is at least $200 million, and will be privately financed by the Ilitches and their third-party business partners. The Ilitches are obligated to pay any arena costs beyond the $450 million. Their business empire, which includes the Little Caesars pizza chain, had $3.1 billion in 2013 revenue.

The Michigan Strategic Fund will sell $450 million in two series of bonds. They will be divided into $250 million in Series A bonds that will be backed by property taxes already captured by the Downtown Development Authority. The $200 million in Series B bonds will be backed by the $11.5 million Olympia Development has agreed to pay the DDA for bond retirement."

 

Makes me wonder just how committed the city of Calgary and the province of Alberta is.

 

 

 

Do you think the cost of materials are different? Labour? 

Detroit's economy is down, but the cost is a bit lower, no? 

 

Alrhough, I guess that means $450,000,000 goes further?

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Do you think the cost of materials are different? Labour? 

Detroit's economy is down, but the cost is a bit lower, no? 

 

Alrhough, I guess that means $450,000,000 goes further?

I believe the entire cost in the District is pegged at $1.2 billion.

A study by the U of M pegs the economic impact at $2 billion by 2020.

That's a lot of impact.

The Ilitches and Olympia aren't dumb. They don't view this as a money loser, nor does the city development planners.

But why do we?

We can't even get behind cleaning waste seeping into the river...

Then you have the most down and out city in NA saying, YES! Let's do it!

How is it we can't do anything but complain about it and spew contempt?

I can't find any positive spins coming out of Calgary at all, just doom and gloom...then I look at Detroit's excitement and positive spins.

What are we doing?? Do we see no return on the investment so we want Walmart pricing?

All we see is cost, and it isn't viewed as investing in the community at all.

[CheersMan]

16 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I believe the entire cost in the District is pegged at $1.2 billion.

A study by the U of M pegs the economic impact at $2 billion by 2020.

That's a lot of impact.

The Ilitches and Olympia aren't dumb. They don't view this as a money loser, nor does the city development planners.

But why do we?

We can't even get behind cleaning waste seeping into the river...

Then you have the most down and out city in NA saying, YES! Let's do it!

How is it we can't do anything but complain about it and spew contempt?

I can't find any positive spins coming out of Calgary at all, just doom and gloom...then I look at Detroit's excitement and positive spins.

What are we doing?? Do we see no return on the investment so we want Walmart pricing?

All we see is cost, and it isn't viewed as investing in the community at all.

CalgaryNext is a no brainer for this Cat.  Please exclude me from the "WE".

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I assumed that the city would build an arena that would be able to endure flooding. I am not sure how this is done, but there must be a way. After reading your post, I am questioning my assumption. Municipalities are notorious for not considering the side-effects of decisions. 

 

Maybe it ought to be made of gopher wood.  The length of the arena shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.  A window shalt thou make to the arena, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the arena shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

 

And of every living Flames fan of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the arena, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

 

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the arena, and it was lift up above the earth.

 

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Flames fans only remained alive, and they that were with him in the arena.

 

And God remembered Flames fans, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the arena: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged.

 

And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

 

And the arena rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

 

[Cowtownguy]

2 hours ago, redfire11 said:

Detroit and the state of Michigan are nearly bankrupt and yet they are doing what it takes to ensure the Wings get a new facility.

 

"The initial base price is $450 million. Problems, changes and added amenities could increase that final cost. Anything beyond $450 million must be paid by the Ilitches. The ancillary development — bars, restaurants, stores, apartments, townhomes — is at least $200 million, and will be privately financed by the Ilitches and their third-party business partners. The Ilitches are obligated to pay any arena costs beyond the $450 million. Their business empire, which includes the Little Caesars pizza chain, had $3.1 billion in 2013 revenue.

The Michigan Strategic Fund will sell $450 million in two series of bonds. They will be divided into $250 million in Series A bonds that will be backed by property taxes already captured by the Downtown Development Authority. The $200 million in Series B bonds will be backed by the $11.5 million Olympia Development has agreed to pay the DDA for bond retirement."

 

Makes me wonder just how committed the city of Calgary and the province of Alberta is.

 

 

They did work long and hard for their new arena. It was planned a long time ago with money collected over a significant period of time. A lot of people who worked for the city lost their pensions though. That would suck, at the end of your work years, to lose your pension like that. Maybe they will get new jobs at the arena.

[conundrumed]

57 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

They did work long and hard for their new arena. It was planned a long time ago with money collected over a significant period of time. A lot of people who worked for the city lost their pensions though. That would suck, at the end of your work years, to lose your pension like that. Maybe they will get new jobs at the arena.

When a city declares bankruptcy and goes into protection, you lose your pension.

Case in point, Sears here in Canada. Everyone losing their jobs is also losing their pension, because Sears has been given Creditor Protection.

My brother had the same thing happen when the company he worked for closed. 20 years, no pension, no severance, nothing.

Pensions should be registered to the employee in Canada, not a gamble with the company they work for.

My brother had over half a mil built up. That figure is now zero.

 

The city employees losing their pension has zero to do with the arena.

Again, seeking out the negatives is a concept I just can't get with.

2 hours ago, CheersMan said:

CalgaryNext is a no brainer for this Cat.  Please exclude me from the "WE".

I understand that, I wasn't actually looking to point anyone out, just a generalization on the crush of negativity this subject has brought on.

Reaction has been cold, at best.

[Cowtownguy]

2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

When a city declares bankruptcy and goes into protection, you lose your pension.

Case in point, Sears here in Canada. Everyone losing their jobs is also losing their pension, because Sears has been given Creditor Protection.

My brother had the same thing happen when the company he worked for closed. 20 years, no pension, no severance, nothing.

Pensions should be registered to the employee in Canada, not a gamble with the company they work for.

My brother had over half a mil built up. That figure is now zero.

 

The city employees losing their pension has zero to do with the arena.

Again, seeking out the negatives is a concept I just can't get with.

I understand that, I wasn't actually looking to point anyone out, just a generalization on the crush of negativity this subject has brought on.

Reaction has been cold, at best.

I guess that is what I was trying to say. The money for the arena had been collected over a long period of time and Illich ponied up much of it. Having said that, you gotta feel bad for people who lost their pensions and see an arena being built. They are separate issues of course.

 

The federal government should pass a law ensuring that pensions are actually funded and linked to the employee. My old man gets a small pension from Europe even though he has lived in Canada since the 60s. Meanwhile, people like your brother are out of luck. 

[robrob74]

Building the arena will bring in new jobs for how many years? Where will they shop and buy things? Who else benefits? 

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I guess that is what I was trying to say. The money for the arena had been collected over a long period of time and Illich ponied up much of it. Having said that, you gotta feel bad for people who lost their pensions and see an arena being built. They are separate issues of course.

 

The federal government should pass a law ensuring that pensions are actually funded and linked to the employee. My old man gets a small pension from Europe even though he has lived in Canada since the 60s. Meanwhile, people like your brother are out of luck. 

I frequent Detroit somewhat regularly. The biggest eyecatcher for me is what happens when a city declares bankruptcy?

I saw a crumbling apartment building whose bricks had landslided into a lane of a major thoroughfare, not so much as a caution horse or caution tape around it.

Parks being mowed by gangs of residents because the city can't pay for the upkeep. Something as base as that, and people want their kids to at least be able to play on the swings without 4' of overgrowth. A sense of hopelessness from gangs of men hanging out in the shade of trees on a Tuesday morning.

Did CNN give Detroit any coverage to show the rest of the country their plight? Of course they didn't, they were tracking a storm nearing Cuba.

They went bankrupt, and the rest of the country didn't care.

 

Detroit residents are awesome. There is no place to see an event that outdoes Detroit. Not even maybe.

They deserve better, it's an amazing city with a ton going on.

Ilitch was one of the most respected businessmen in America, he isn't pouring money in just because. He knows it's a sound investment.

When will we see the forest through the trees?

[conundrumed]

31 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Building the arena will bring in new jobs for how many years? Where will they shop and buy things? Who else benefits? 

Realistically, it creates a few thousand full time jobs for a year or 2. In the end, probably 1,000 steady gigs.

The rest I think you're being tongue-in-cheek. Buy houses and spend your hard-earned dollars in Calgary.

Promote businesses to the area, promote future development investments...all for Calgary.

Local companies get a boost.

It's not a bane, it's a boost. When the price of oil is crushing everyone, it creates a much-needed boost to the economy.

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I understand that, I wasn't actually looking to point anyone out, just a generalization on the crush of negativity this subject has brought on.

Reaction has been cold, at best.

 

It hasn’t all been negative here with the exception of a few poster plus Nenshi.  I think most Calgary residents are warm to the idea but they haven’t been vocal about it, they want to understand how we get to the end game.  I’m not a fan of providing a blank cheque either.  The CalgaryNext idea is great imo!  How do we get there needs to be answered. 

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

It hasn’t all been negative here with the exception of a few poster plus Nenshi.  I think most Calgary residents are warm to the idea but they haven’t been vocal about it, they want to understand how we get to the end game.  I’m not a fan of providing a blank cheque either.  The CalgaryNext idea is great imo!  How do we get there needs to be answered. 

Is it KK or Nenshi that fail to understand the financial giants that own Calgary's downtown core?

I'm sure some of them would invest in a city where they have 1,000+ employees.

And actually see it's an investment with eventual dividends.

Make it an investment, get business leaders investing in it...

Pretty sure Detroit did exactly that.

KK, meanwhile, really needs help in the marketing dept...

[CheersMan]

9 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Is it KK or Nenshi that fail to understand the financial giants that own Calgary's downtown core?

I'm sure some of them would invest in a city where they have 1,000+ employees.

And actually see it's an investment with eventual dividends.

Make it an investment, get business leaders investing in it...

Pretty sure Detroit did exactly that.

KK, meanwhile, really needs help in the marketing dept...

What are we marketing?  A standalone arena or CalgaryNext?  Flames and City need to find common ground before letting the cattle out to pasture.

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

Building the arena will bring in new jobs for how many years? Where will they shop and buy things? Who else benefits? 

 

Not sure how many long term new jobs a new arena will bring because the staff at Saddledome will just migrate over to the new arena.  

 

Creosote clean up, special firm in USA.

Architectural design, Sweden.

Engineering, UK.

Building materials, China and Asia.

Labour, part local and part out of province.

 

So really, worst case is 90% of the $1.8-billion leaves town before the first puck is ever dropped on the ice.

[conundrumed]

Just now, CheersMan said:

What are we marketing?  A standalone arena or CalgaryNext?  Flames and City need to find common ground before letting the cattle out to pasture.

 

Regardless of which strategy, it's met with a lot of vitriol.

We're looking at probably $800,000,000. That's a lot of investment required.

I think <500 million is a Walmart figure and won't be much of an upgrade to the Saddledome location, which sucks, imho.

[Cowtownguy]

23 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

It hasn’t all been negative here with the exception of a few poster plus Nenshi.  I think most Calgary residents are warm to the idea but they haven’t been vocal about it, they want to understand how we get to the end game.  I’m not a fan of providing a blank cheque either.  The CalgaryNext idea is great imo!  How do we get there needs to be answered. 

I am not sure that Nenshi has impressed anyone on this issue. Initially, he said that no city resources would go into a new arena for the Flames. I recall him even saying that resources included vacant land. Now, he seems to be willing to offer up $600 million or so. That is a big difference. Thus, I would put him in the "willing to use tax dollars" camp, not the "against willing to use tax dollars".  I am not sure why he is being labelled as against the Calgary Flames on this matter. I mean, a willingness to give hundreds of millions of dollars is terrible because they really want billions of tax dollars!? If Nenshi is only willing to give me $600 million when I really want a couple of billion, I think that I will not talk too negatively about him.

 

I am not convinced that enough Calgarians are wiling to spend $1.3-$1.8 billion for a new arena. Think about what kind of infrastructure could be built with that money. Or, think about what will not be built with that money.

 

Nobody has really provided a good reason for why tax dollars should go into such a venture. If the answer is that it is a financial investment, then perhaps that should be left for private business. The city can offer up land or a loan to the Flames. Every valid study on economic returns demonstrates that new arenas are windfalls for professional teams, but they are financial losers for cities, especially if cost overruns are not determined in advance. How far should we take that logic? How many other businesses should the city offer up that much cash to? 

 

If the answer is that one other Canadian city (The City of Losers) misused federal infrastructure dollars because Harper did not ensure how the money should be spent, then all that shows is that one city might have chosen poorly, and that cities can be held ransom by wealthy people who illegally donate $300k to the former provincial party in power. Oh sorry, he took that back when it was refused by the PCs because it was too large and suddenly 100 of his employees were willing to offer up the maximum donation of $30k each.

 

If the answer is that there is a larger return on investment that should be considered (i.e. city spirit, city pride, optimism during a recession, making Calgary more visible in the world etc.), then the question is how much should be invested by municipal government? How do we measure these returns?

 

In the end, it seems to me that there are few politicians entirely against the use of public dollars for a new arena. There might be luke-warm support for a new arena from Calgarians, but we do not really know given that the main study examining it was put forth by politicians impacted by such decisions. Finally, if there is a belief that municipalities should support NHL owners with new arenas, then how deep is that support? A failure to specify the nature and extent of city support is tantamount to a carte blanche approach. 

[conundrumed]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Not sure how many long term new jobs a new arena will bring because the staff at Saddledome will just migrate over to the new arena.  

 

Creosote clean up, special firm in USA.

Architectural design, Sweden.

Engineering, UK.

Building materials, China and Asia.

Labour, part local and part out of province.

 

So really, worst case is 90% of the $1.8-billion leaves town before the first puck is ever dropped on the ice.

That's really only the case if you're the opposite of a harbinger of positivity.

I'm calling BS.

Especially the last 2 are laughable and can be applied to every fabric of our lives.

Your front 3 are suspect also..

I'm sure you have a "best case" to go along with your "worst case".

Though you never mentioned it...hmmm

 

Thanks for the support of my argument, the "worst case scenario" gets all of the press.

I'm sure no good could come from a new arena...

 

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

 Every valid study on economic returns demonstrates that new arenas are windfalls for professional teams, but they are financial losers for cities, especially if cost overruns are not determined in advance. How far should we take that logic? How many other businesses should the city offer up that much cash to?

Can you provide a link?

I was unable to find a reputable study that was conclusive.

 

[The_People1]

21 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

That's really only the case if you're the opposite of a harbinger of positivity.

I'm calling BS.

Especially the last 2 are laughable and can be applied to every fabric of our lives.

Your front 3 are suspect also..

I'm sure you have a "best case" to go along with your "worst case".

Though you never mentioned it...hmmm

 

Thanks for the support of my argument, the "worst case scenario" gets all of the press.

I'm sure no good could come from a new arena...

 

 

CAN we do it all locally?  Sure.

 

What local firm is a creosote/hazardous materials clean up specialist that can handle a project of that scope?  Has the tools and equipment?  We may be better not risking the local guys screw up.  Better to hire an intentional expert for the job.

 

CAN we design and engineer locally?  Sure we CAN.  A better question is "do we want a world class facility or a locally engineered one?". Do we want world renowned architects or some above average SAIT grad?  Do we want world class stadium/arena project specialists or some oil and gas engineering hybrid company?

 

Take a look at the roster for the Oilers arena,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Place

 

Take a look at the roster on Calgary's Bow,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bow_(skyscraper)

 

Take a look at Starvin Marvin's arena,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Caesars_Arena

 

No one does it all locally.  They want the best of the best.  Building a new multi purpose facility like CalgaryNext is not the time to cheap out and subject the project to risks from inexperience.

 

And unless you guys want the Flames new arena to be made primarily out of bitumen, then nearly all of the materials will come from out of country.  Not to mention, when you source materials from overseas, it's cheaper than from locals which helps bring down the costs.

 

At best, 50% of the $1.8-billion can be recouped into Calgary's economy from the project.  That's being hyper optimistic.  

 

Realistically, the better we want the project to succeed, the more the $1.8-billion SHOULD be spent outside the city/province.  We CAN spend locally but we really shouldn't.

[Cowtownguy]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Can you provide a link?

I was unable to find a reputable study that was conclusive.

 

Most of the reading that I have done on the topic is in hard cover. I quickly looked up the names of two authors and came up with this.

 

Quote

Very few defendable arguments can be made in favour of publicly constructed or subsidized sport stadia and other large, entertainment facilities. Despite the claims of developers and their supporters, there is no evidence that new sport stadia generate significant new economic growth or employment for the region where the investments are made. The multiplier/stimulus effect from the construction is no greater and in some cases less than spending upon other forms of infrastructure, such as housing and transportation. While large sports events and concerts may pull entertainment spending from one quarter of the region to another, and even contribute to the revitalization of an entertainment district or the transformation of a neglected area of a city1, they cannot stimulate new economic growth on their own. There is no evidence that they generate significantly new levels of tourism from outside the region. Spending on sport and concerts simply substitutes for spending on other types of entertainment and other goods and services more generally. Coates and Humphreys found, in a recent review of the literature, that no matter which cities or geographical areas are examined and which models or variables are used, articles published in peer- reviewed economics journals contain almost no evidence that professional sports franchises and facilities have a measureable economic impact upon the economy.2....

 

....The case of MLSE illustrates the complexity. A privately held corporation, it built its primary production facilities, the arenas Maple Leaf Gardens and the Air Canada Centre, entirely out of its own funds; several of its owners stated that public funds for professional sport were unjustified and unnecessary.  

This is why the Flames really missed the boat in my opinion. Had they approached the city 15-20 years ago and established an airport (arena) tax, then a chunk of any new facility would have been covered by people who fly into Calgary. It would bring in new money, not simply displace existing finite dollars. It could have been a modest tax that would not hamper tourism. They have done so in some US cities and it works out well. If they get the Olympics, then maybe federal government money will flow into the city (kind of like the Edmonton situation).

[The_Tribal Chief]

Another Thing To look at is Nenshi was a Big block a at first saying the City wouldn't Pay anything thing for a new Arena Or Stadium Now The problem is Weather you and i Know the Figures there is Money the City Makes With the Flames here And With The ownership not Just Owning the Flames but the Stampeders Aswell i think Nenshi Relized he had to Smarten up or IF he loses Both the Flames and the Stampeders there will Be Fans at City Council with noose for His Head

[MAC331]

On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎07 at 3:00 PM, conundrumed said:

Is it KK or Nenshi that fail to understand the financial giants that own Calgary's downtown core?

I'm sure some of them would invest in a city where they have 1,000+ employees.

And actually see it's an investment with eventual dividends.

Make it an investment, get business leaders investing in it...

Pretty sure Detroit did exactly that.

KK, meanwhile, really needs help in the marketing dept...

You might see this as the NDP exit and business capital returns to Alberta. This Province is dealing with some harsh realities right now. Calgary Next as planned will not be proceeding and as a citizen I believe was to big and not necessary. I believe an Arena in Victoria Park with a Social Village surrounding the area is the way to go. So long as the right people are still talking about getting the project right then all is good. Internet opinions are just that opinions, all kinds.

[The_Tribal Chief]

The Reason Calgary Next Was So Big Mac Was it was Covering 2 Teams a Stadium for the Stampeders and a Arena for the Flames Now weather the flames get there arena or Not The Stampeder Still need a New Stadium As Mcman is as old as Rock  So they were Trying to Cover Both Building in one Area

[MAC331]

4 hours ago, The_Snowbear said:

The Reason Calgary Next Was So Big Mac Was it was Covering 2 Teams a Stadium for the Stampeders and a Arena for the Flames Now weather the flames get there arena or Not The Stampeder Still need a New Stadium As Mcman is as old as Rock  So they were Trying to Cover Both Building in one Area

I understand all of this and my preference would be to see two projects. Arena in the East end and a Football stadium in the West end.